Crossdressers-Haven.com

Hi girls:

Danielle here with some interesting news. Read...from Ms. Jenelle Rose....

Vineyard Community Church....
treated me very unfairly and was extremely rude!

Here is the whole story. I want, if you feel as I do, to have as many people write to these people as possible and lend me your support!

I recently divorced my wife of 19 years ending a relationship in one aspect that we have had since 1978, 26 years, as I write this. The divorce was final December 16, 2003. Apparently the church named above scans the court records and invites those recently divorced to a seminar called "Divorce and Beyond". They were asking for $20.00 to go to both a Friday evening class and a Saturday all day seminar. I signed up and even tried to get my two children to go, as that was an offering for an additional sum. My kids didn't want to go, citing that they didn't think they needed it.

As it turned out, I had a late invite to attend a social gathering that same evening and I decided to go to both, dressing for the second event in clothes that consisted of a nice to the knee skirt, hose and heels. I was going to be late for the second event but I was determined to go to both.

During a break at the seminar, I was approached by the pastor of the church, Mark Lutz, along with someone else. They asked if I would "sit down with them". I was taken away from the crowd gathering for snacks offered and to an open lobby area and asked to sit. At this point they said they had no experience in dealing with "someone like me" and thought it best that I leave. They said people were approaching them, including the table I sat at, who told them I made them feel "uncomfortable". This part I did not believe b/c I immediately made friends with the other 5 ladies including our table hostess who was very sweet and someone else prior early on in the hallway. I simply got up at this point during their "lecture" to go back to my table and the seminar, already back in progress.

I mentioned why I was late to the table hostess and she couldn't believe the way I was treated and wanted to talk to them herself and for me to identify the people who asked me to "sit-down". As we walked back into the hallway, we were approached by yet another man who turned out to be pastor Bill Koontz. He expressed their desire for me to leave and told the woman to "get back to her table", that it "did not concern her" and it was "none of her business". She left and then he walked me to the exit, up the stairs and through the main lobby and out the door. I had already given the woman my card to send me a refund check.

A week and a half later and I still have not received any money back nor even an apology.

Bigots? Hypocrites? I am not worthy? I don't have the same needs as others? Am I not being treated unfairly here? I was very hurt and ticked that they made me feel so inferior and lied to me as well as made the woman who tried to stand up for me feel small by treating her chauvinistically. We were both treated very rudely and unfair. Tell me what you think and write to them too.

(I hope you write to them if you think Jenelle (the Transgender) was treated unfairly and whatever else you think is appropriate.) = adapted from original statement - Danielle...

Thank you!

Vineyard Community Church

11340 Century Circle East

Cincinnati, OH 45246

513 671-0422

©2004 Jenelle Rose. All rights reserved.


Before we decide pro or con, here is Jenelle's webpage:
http://www.jenellerose.com

I have known Jenelle for about 2 years via my connection with the DMOZ.org/Open Directory Project, where I gave her web site a "COOL" award and a primary listing in the search engine mentioned previously in this paragraph.
She has always been faithful to her word and for me, comes accross as a "girl" worth knowing. I am not surprised by the "church" behavior or specifically those that influenced the action. Perhaps they were just defending their "biblical" beliefs. Some accept, some reject.

Hugs

Danielle

Religion helps some to become better people; others it turns into jerks. Sounds as if Jenelle ran into the latter.

-Celia

Hi Danielle,

That's sad.

I think one of the worst parts, other than her being escorted out, is a man telling a woman to mind her own business and her not being able to stand up for herself. Are we in the 1800s?

Anyway, I hope she is doing ok now.

Beauty

Hi Danielle,

Looks as though the Devil was in his glory in this situation, and yes that is sad.

I have, over the past few years, read quite a number of very good posts on other forums from Jenelle Rose. I have no doubt this actually happened to her, as it probably would to most of us if we had tried the same thing.

I think it is reasonable to expect that the Religious Right will be the last bastion of opposition to transgender people, given their well-known positions on issues like gay/lesbian rights, gay marriage, family values, and so on.

Read on for an example from Southern California...

http://www2.ocregister.com/ocrweb/ocr/a ... tion=LOCAL

Friday, April 2, 2004

Crowd fails to sway board on 'gender' law
Westminster schools will continue to defy the state, risking the loss of funds.

[image]

OVERFLOW CROWD: Parent Ken Blanck of Huntington Beach shows his frustration Thursday as a majority of the Westminster school board declined to change an earlier vote to reject the state’s definition of “gender.”
ANDY TEMPLETON, FOR THE REGISTER


By FERMIN LEAL
The Orange County Register

HUNTINGTON BEACH – Three Westminster School District board members declared late Thursday that they would continue to defy state law by not voting to adopt a revised definition of "gender" in the district's policy manual.

The state's definition is immoral and would promote transsexual behavior in schools, they said.

Mounting pressure from the hundreds of parents, teachers and activists who converged on the board meeting at Stacey Middle School in Huntington Beach failed to sway the board majority.

More than 800 people packed the school auditorium. Many held up signs and cheered or booed throughout the meeting. Speakers were set up outside for the overflow audience of more than 100 people.

The state Department of Education has threatened to pull millions of dollars in state and federal funding from Westminster School District if it does not adopt the definition, which essentially allows students to determine which gender they are.

State officials have given the district until April 12 to comply or face consequences that include withholding money that pays for computers, teacher training, programs for low-income students and other items.

The three board members - Judy Ahrens, Helena Rutkowski and Blossie Marquez- Woodcock - said they can support only the district's current policy, which defines "gender" as a person's biological sex.

Beyond the morality aspect, the women said, the state's definition would present practical problems in schools.

School officials might not be able to prevent boys who say they perceive themselves as girls from entering girls locker rooms and restrooms, they said. District staff said that would never happen, regardless of what sex students perceive themselves to be.

"The fact of the matter is that bathrooms are determined by a student's (biological) sex, not their gender. That's not going to ever change," said district spokesperson Trish Montgomery.

About three dozen people said they back the board majority because of their support of traditional family values.

"I want to thank the three of you for taking the courageous position that you have taken," said Richard Sturges, a former district principal.

Most of the crowd said the three board members were waging a moral battle against the state at the expense of the district.

"How dare you use my child as a human shield for your discrimination, your fear, your hatred," parent Donna Scott said. "As elected public officials, you should live up to your moral obligation to obey the law."

In a letter sent to the district Thursday, state Superintendent Jack O'Connell urged the board majority to reconsider.


CONTACT US: (714) 445-6687 or fleal@ocregister.com

Copyright 2004 The Orange County Register

Back to Jenelle Rose. I'm on her side, but I doubt that even an avalanche of letters and phone calls will sway that church an inch. I do think they should keep their promise and give her money back. Probably if she makes a few phone calls to their office they will. (I would have told them I wouldn't leave until I got my money back.)

Hi,

You're right Rikki! That was so stinky.

For everyone:
There's another thread started about the news story Rikki posted about he huntington thingy. Please comment there This way we can keep this thread about our Jennelle.

http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... .php?t=979

Beauty

I feel very bad

Kersten

Hi Danielle--
Yes, it's a bad situation. But that is fear talking--fear is making these people somewhat irrational and knee-jerk when they decide to act. I can also understand that the women at the table would not want to appear unfriendly, but might still be uncomfortable with your friend's presence.

The way they treated the woman who tried to stand up for Jenelle is really bad, and again, it's fear and anger clouding their ability to act in a decent manner.

I'm not defending their actions I will say that they do have a right to their uncomfortable feelings, too. We can wish that things were different, but people have to be allowed to feel, and to express how they feel. In this case, they needed to step back from their fears before they acted, and they didn't do this.

I have conservative relatives in the Cincinnati area, and they struggle to understand what I'm doing. They can accept the idea that Anita exists--but they don't want her around them. As my brother said, "What you do out there is your business--but it wouldn't work here."

And some of my relatives have religious beliefs that say it is clearly wrong to try to change what God created. This view creates a LOT of fear around transgender.
Anita

Jenelle was absoluterly correct. She was indeed treated very unfairly. We've all seen this time and time again, and it is a shame that in a setting that is supposed to be about community and togetherness, that this level of intolerance still exists.

It truly boggles the mind.

Religious Orders over history have set themselves up as an authority to control people by establishing 'moral codes'. The intention is to control people by having them live by the 'moral codes' set up by the church and these 'moral codes' have long been set as if they have been decreed by 'the gods', which gives them maximum effect on peoples' lives.

Unfortunately 'moral codes' are a set of fixed ideas and never flexible, which means they can never work in all situations or circumstances. They are set so that the 'little people' won't deal with things and make their own decisions. Unfortunately these 'moral codes' also act as a precipitor to guilt complexes and are major contributors to why people withdraw and suffer stress and depression.

The churches have constructed their 'moral codes' so that when we freely make ourselves a member of the congregation, we are supposedly committed to abiding by the 'moral codes' of the group, even though some of these 'moral codes' are not written down anywhere, they still powerfully control so many peoples lives.

When we become a member of the group we are supposed to implicitly agree that the 'rules' are good, so when we break those rules, the ruling authority make sure we feel as if we have done something bad. They try to control the situation by making us feel fear that a perpretation of the rules will ostracise us from the group and in that way they hope to keep complete control over peoples actions and how they live their lives.

They try to use these 'mpral codes' so that if we step outside the boundary, we will be overcome by guilt and commit back to the fold. What some people don't realise is that those in authority try to take away our born right to live our lives to the fullest as we wish, really what one does is what one does and we should never be, or made to feel ashamed or bad about our selves, as long as we don't hurt anyone.

If we are to live as whole and aligned people we will and should naturally do the things needed to honour the wholeness of it all. Not all institutions who have set themselves up as guiding stars to goodness actually are as they would have us believe.

Fixed rules and ideas cannot always work in all cases, there needs to be flexibility. There can never ever be only one way which is right, fixed rules and 'moral codes' need to be freed up. There can never just be one right way of behaving and what people have to really look at is the real purpose the fixedness serves, and who it serves. Nothing can ever be black and white, as most Churches would have us believe. People are basically good and what we consciously or sub consciously do at any given time, we do because it seems right at the time.

The whole idea is to make us feel that if we commit perpetrations against the rules, we are committing a perpetration against the whole group and so we know will be badly judged. I believe in taking my own responsibility for being the person I am and acting according to my own integrity, that way I free myself from their 'moral codes' and what I do is no longer an issue, therefore I can't go on a guilt trip as they would wish me to.

I well know that many people love and need their religion, as I came from a deeply religious background, but I came to realise that people wanted to control my life and have me do as they wished, not what my spirit was telling me I needed to do. If those in authority within the church followed the scriptures, then they would not exclude anyone from the fold, but I'm afraid they have ulterior motives far removed from what is set down in the Bible.

My Kindest Regards to all.

Sally.

Too bad I don't live nearby . . . you girls KNOW I would show up as Alexandra (and a camera crew) and ask to speak to the pastors . . .

When Sally has spoken, there is rarely anything intelligent left to add. I am ALWAYS awestruck by Sally's firm grasp of every situation, and her ability to explain it so well.

But dear Alexandria gave me something I can add: I volunteer to be the camera crew!

Hugs,

Bernice

Hi all,

For me, one of the lessons in this episode is the need for us to stand up for ourselves and our tg sisters when blatant discrimination like this happens. As Anita said, we need to respect these religious conservatives' feelings, yet it is all to the good to make them explain their own hurtful actions, IN PUBLIC. Ideally, this should be done by the person being hurt.

One way might have been to make the point right then and there that the church never specified the sort of clothing that people should wear. Another would be to ask them whether we should ban all people who are different because some people are made "uncomfortable" (would they ask an African American to leave because it made some white person "uncomfortable"?). It takes guts to do that, and it's hard to be critical of those of us who get flustered and just give in. Still, the more of us who refuse to take the kind of outrage that happened to Jenelle Rose, the better off we all will be.


Laura