Honesty

[Kathy]

Some additional thoughts...

They say that honesty is the best policy but discretion is the better part of valor. The trouble is that it is sometimes difficult to determine when to be openly honest or discreet. But, even in discretion, we are still being honest.

Darlene, I can only ask a question in response to yours. Did you allow that blow to strike you down or did you, over time, become a stronger person for the experience? Based on your posts here, I suspect the latter but only you can answer for yourself. But if you confirm my suspicion, then you did not allow their weapon to succeed. That is what I was driving at. My apologies for stating my case incorrectly. And, as has been said to Julie and others, don't lose hope in your kids. In time they may come around on their own. If not, well, some may think me cold for saying it but it is more their loss than yours. I for one am much the richer for meeting you even if only in text.

My additional thoughts on honesty came to me while riding the tractor around mowing the lawn.

I just want to point out that just because one is honest does not mean that one is correct. We all have our honest opinions about everything that happens to or around us. Those opinions are formed based on information recieved from family, friends, media and the "man on the street". But we don't necessarily get the "whole story". It is only by sharing our information and our honest opinions with others and keeping our minds and hearts open to the information and opinions of others that we both learn and grow as people.

That is why I absolute despise the whole concept of "spin doctors" and being "politically correct". If we cannot interact with each other based on plain, open honesty, then how can we possibly expect to make truely informed decisions? How will we ever know the truth about anything? How will we ever be able to trust anyone? Including ourselves?

[Loretta Ann]

Kathy,

While this may seem cold, my kids did connect with me, when they became legal age. But there was nothing there, what should have been had been destroyed. It was like a 60 year old man, trying to become friends with a teen ager who is a stranger. I had to accept that and move on.

Yes I am much stronger as a result, but that is not something I take credit for, it just did not leave me much choice. When one hits bottom, if you plan on sticking around there is not any where else to go.

Your last post is much better.

[Kay(SO)]

Sticking my nose in again to say a couple of things. Honesty can be both good and bad. As a therapist, I always tell my clients to check their motives before telling people things, and really look at why they are wanting to do it.

Also, this comment pushed my buttons: Society seems to have no trouble accepting a woman wearing a man's suit. What's the difference? I don't see one. CDing is CDing, period.

I see a huge difference between my wearing a suit and my husband wearing boobs, makeup, a wig, pumps, lingere and a dress. When I wear the suit I'm not wearing prostetics or trying to "pass" as a man and trying to convince the world and myself that I am one.

Kay(SO)

[Ahzz]

That is only because many years ago the US in general had the idea of a "woman in pants" thrust into their daily lives...

It wasn't a bunch of protestors, or people fighting for "their rights". It was the women who took over the facotry jobs when their men went to war.

If you read your history, back then a women wearing pants was ostracised by her peers and her church if she insisted on taking on the guise of a man by eschewing the dress. Or even by insisting that she had the right o have a job other than taking care of the kids and cooking her man his food.

The ONLY reason you see it differently is because you grew up with it as being accepted.

Me, I find it insulting when a woman walks around in bluejeans, flannel shirt, and workboots while on the day job and talks smack about "all those perverts".

If they made dresses that fit men's shapes, we wouldn't need prostetics in order for them to fit us completely right without looking "lacking".

If society would accept that men can have something other than a shortly cut hairstyle, we wouldn't need wigs.

We "hide" or "pretend" to be a woman because to do otherwise is to invite ridicule and ostricization (sp?). It is people that can't see the daily crossdressing of women that present this danger to us.

I'm sorry if you take this post as highly offensive. It is not intended to be. It is merely the "other side of the coin" that you seem to be VERY much unaware of based on your posts. I hope it can make you see why a man wearing a dress isn't really all that strange or bizzarre of a concept.

[Jassmine(SO)]

Hi Kay,

Now why on earth would my comment

Society seems to have no trouble accepting a woman wearing a man's suit. What's the difference? I don't see one. CDing is CDing, period.

offend you?

I wear men's clothes not to try and convince the world that I am a man, but to express my masculine nature. I am very Tom boyish. The purpose of CDing is self expression, period. Why should society have a problem with a man expressing his femininity? Our physical attributes do not express who we are on the inside. Clothing is a way to express one's different natures. Same goes for make up, hairstyles, piercings, and tattooing. Its all about freedom of expression

*Hugs*

[Kathy]

If they made dresses that fit men's shapes, we wouldn't need prostetics in order for them to fit us completely right without looking "lacking".

Which is why I wear skirts or slacks and tops rather than dresses so that I can get a more proper fit without prosthetics which I rarely use in public.

If society would accept that men can have something other than a shortly cut hairstyle, we wouldn't need wigs.

I see big burly men with shoulder length hair that has been permed. I see men with long hair pulled back into pony tails. Do we really need wigs? I wear fairly plain clothing only to keep from being in my parents' faces with my dressing. Otherwise, like Richelle, I would be wearing noticably femme clothing with no wig (my hair is short), no prosthetics, no padding and no makeup. And, like Richelle, I may get some funny looks but I think the fear of ridicule is more within us. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm also not ignoring the news reports about CDrs being attacked. But, that happens to anyone who dares to be different.

I have to agree with Kay(SO). There is a very big difference between a woman wearing a men's suit or a man wearing a woman's skirt and a man trying to "pass" as a woman.

Here is a question Suuzin asked me the other day. I could not answer her. Can you?

But then one could ask if all you want to do is get in touch with your feminine feelings, why is it necessary to dress at all? Another way of saying it is I do understand why anyone, including a man, might want to wear a dress. I just don't understand why he would want to wear one so much.

Please bear in mind the title of this thread when you reply.

I also want to toss in here a comment I made to Suuzin regarding her survey question about what kind of SO I would want and how she might feel about my dressing:

As I don't have a SO, I was thinking a bit speculatively based on some of the posts by SOs and others. If she was hetero, as I would want her to be, I was thinking that, since I only wear the clothes and don't try to make myself "appear" feminine, perhaps she wouldn't have the reaction of wanting a man but getting a woman instead. Or maybe avoiding the "you look better than I do" problems that some have posted recently. By retaining my male appearance in all aspects, other than the clothing itself, she could still look at me and see a man. While it may still be difficult to accept the crossdressing, I might avoid some of those other issues that seem to make acceptance more complicated.

I wonder if those thoughts might apply to society as a whole?

[Ahzz]

If they made dresses that fit men's shapes, we wouldn't need prostetics in order for them to fit us completely right without looking "lacking".

Which is why I wear skirts or slacks and tops rather than dresses so that I can get a more proper fit without prosthetics which I rarely use in public.

I spose you could say it is the same reason that women go get implants and breast inserts themselves all fo the time. There is just something about the "frontal projections" that society hinges feminineness on. Now mind you, i'm not saying that one MUST have breasts to be feminine, just that it's one of the indicators that society as a whole looks for (or so we have been taught all of our lives, take Hooters Girls for example, or cheerleaders)

If society would accept that men can have something other than a shortly cut hairstyle, we wouldn't need wigs.

I see big burly men with shoulder length hair that has been permed. I see men with long hair pulled back into pony tails. Do we really need wigs? I wear fairly plain clothing only to keep from being in my parents' faces with my dressing. Otherwise, like Richelle, I would be wearing noticably femme clothing with no wig (my hair is short), no prosthetics, no padding and no makeup. And, like Richelle, I may get some funny looks but I think the fear of ridicule is more within us. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm also not ignoring the news reports about CDrs being attacked. But, that happens to anyone who dares to be different.

*nod* anyone that breaks the rules of society is in danger of ridicule and retribution. Society also attributes longer hair with being more feminine. Hence the average CDer's desire for a female cut long haired wig.

I have to agree with Kay(SO). There is a very big difference between a woman wearing a men's suit or a man wearing a woman's skirt and a man trying to "pass" as a woman.

The "passing" is a shielding mechanism that is required to fool most of the people in order to minimize the risk of being ridiculed or retaliated against.

Which draws more attention? A man in a dress, or what appears at a glance to be a woman in a dress? Which will net you a safer walk through the park with a bunch of people who fear that which is different? I think "passing" is a highly justified thing at this point in time. When society accepts that a man wearing a dress (other than preiests/monks in robes, or a scotsman in a kilt, Judges in robes, arabs in whatchmacallits(I call em robes), budhists ALL wear the same "robe" type male or female, butchers and cooks wear aprons, and many many more that I have forgotten ) is perfectly normal, and the dresses are cut for men, then at that point "passing" will no longer be required and can be safely discarded. Gender jumping is ignored unless it's in an area that society looks at as a "want" rather than a "need".

Until then, it's justifiably necessary IMHO. So for someone to say that they simply can't accept that their hubby is trying to "pass" is missing one of the major points of doing so. It should be accepted as a necessary thing and at least accepted until such time that it is no longer necessary.

On this point I do have to make one suggestion. If a CDer is going out in public, then they should be trying to pass if their self confidince isn't up to par. At home they should only go so far as it makes them comfortable.

The SO's need to remember, the man makes the clothes. That old misnomer of "the clothes make the man" is patently false and belongs to a society obsessed with the perfect boyd and appearance(which it sounds like you have no problems with at all. )

Here is a question Suuzin asked me the other day. I could not answer her. Can you?

But then one could ask if all you want to do is get in touch with your feminine feelings, why is it necessary to dress at all? Another way of saying it is I do understand why anyone, including a man, might want to wear a dress. I just don't understand why he would want to wear one so much.

Please bear in mind the title of this thread when you reply.

Fabric types and prints that are unavailable in mens clothing.
Cut styles and trim that aren't available.
Overall mood impression given.
Free feeling clothing (which MOST pants aren't, and also, I just happen to like the freedom of movement that skirts/dreses give the legs)
Variety of styles/tastes.

Just look at the siz eof the women's department versus the mens department. Usually it's HIGHLY imballanced in the range of styles, colors, threads, etc.

Secondly, I also happen to believe that the "women can wear pants, and man can NOT wear dresses" is a double standard. And we all know where double standards get us in life...

I mean after all, Everyone claims "it's societies way" or "the bible says so". Well, guess what, society changed it's mind on pants on women. Why can't it change it's mind on skirts/dresses on men?

Additionally, the bible even says that a man shall not wear that unto a woman, nor a woman unto that of a man." meaning pants on a woman is a mortal sin IF christians, jews, and musilms all obeyed every tenant/rule/scripture in their great books.

I guess you could say there are MANY reasons. It just that most people simply won't hear those reasons because they don't want to be seen as sympathising for fear of that same ridicule by association. And we ALL know that sympathizers regularly get lumped in with the offenders.

And lastly....

Who in hades ever said that *I* can not wear what I please, where I please as long as I'm not being lewd or sexually offensive!?!? I mean, this IS a free country is it not? If I want to be ridiculous looking, isn't it my right to be so?

I also want to toss in here a comment I made to Suuzin regarding her survey question about what kind of SO I would want and how she might feel about my dressing:

As I don't have a SO, I was thinking a bit speculatively based on some of the posts by SOs and others. If she was hetero, as I would want her to be, I was thinking that, since I only wear the clothes and don't try to make myself "appear" feminine, perhaps she wouldn't have the reaction of wanting a man but getting a woman instead. Or maybe avoiding the "you look better than I do" problems that some have posted recently. By retaining my male appearance in all aspects, other than the clothing itself, she could still look at me and see a man. While it may still be difficult to accept the crossdressing, I might avoid some of those other issues that seem to make acceptance more complicated.

I wonder if those thoughts might apply to society as a whole?

It all comes down to competition. I mean cmon. Women spend FAR more money than men on "looking better". They have makeup, earrings, finger rings, toe rings, nail polish, bracelets, neklaces, hair stylists, manicurists, facialists, etc, etc, etc.

Men? Barbers. Suit Tailors. umm, crap, I honestly am drawing a blank of what we have to "look better". OH YEAH! Gyms (but so do women, so ti doesn't count IMHO), Ummm Can you think of more things that we men have to "look better" that women doens't have?

Women compete with each other primarilly on looks and THEN personality. That is how society trained them for ages on hwo to secure a good man and safe haven. That is a lot of training to kick out. I think that when they see the other half of society start to look like them they instinctively think of them as "The Comepetition". And thus they rebel and scream and rage that they wanted a man, not a woman. Well guess what. There is ONE thing that makes a man, and ONE that makes a woman. And I think we ALL know what those two things are... Pitcher and Catcher.

Here is one for the women to think of. Name the attributes that they fell in love with their husband for. I betcha a good number are attributes that are considered feminine. Same thing for your guys, your wives probably have things that are considered masculine. The point here is that we are both! So in reality, who should we be forced to slide to one side or another and STAY there? Why can't we show the full range of emotion and habits that are available to the human race? Think of it this way. The more men are allowed to be feminine, the less discrimination based on sex there will be. Wouldn't it be nice to finally erase the glass cielings to women? And those unequal pay rates? After all, by saying a man has NO right to act like a woman, you are only reinforcing your own limits.

[Kathy]

I wear men's clothes not to try and convince the world that I am a man, but to express my masculine nature.

And I feel exactly the same about my crossdressing. I don't need to try to make myself look like a woman. I don't need to try to hide behind a mask.

I can walk into a beauty parlor and ask to have my hair done any way I choose. They'll be happy to take my money. I can go get a manicure or a pedicure.

All these things that Ahzz says are not available to men. Its no different than walking into a store and purchasing a pair of panties.

The primary cause for women to go for breast augmentation is low self esteem. What is the cause for this? Media hype, perceived competition from others. Its the same old problem of society in general, we go way out of our way to treat the symptoms and largely ignore the real problem that is causing the symptoms in the first place.

When everyone in the world can look at themselves in the mirror, sans makup, sans augmentation of any kind and say "I like what I see", the multi trillion dollar cosmetics industry will go bust. Do you think they will allow that to happen without a fight? No, they will just keep hitting us harder and harder in the self esteem and do their very best to knock us back.

No, I'm sorry but most of what Ahzz said in his last post sounds like the same old media hype, peer pressure excuses I've been hearing for years.

I just don't buy it anymore. Get out from behind the masks, put on your skirts, take your dresses to a seamstress (they like money too) and go be who you are.

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

This is an area that I feel qualified to jump into, so here goes.

Kathy wrote; When everyone in the world can look at themselves in the mirror, sans makeup, sans augmentation of any kind and say "I like what I see", the multi trillion dollar cosmetics industry will go bust. Do you think they will allow that to happen without a fight? No, they will just keep hitting us harder and harder in the self esteem and do their very best to knock us back.

For me it boils down to this. Since when have we given society the right to dictate to us how we should live, and why have we allowed that to happen? Who ever convinced us that we are put on this planet to please others Once you get that issue right self esteem will look after itself, and no one will be able to knock us back.

It is us who have given the multi trillion dollar cosmetics industry the right to control us, and they really don't need to fight us for it. And I fail to see how we can blame them for that.

And that same principle applies to the other area of our lives.

[Kathy]

It is us who have given the multi trillion dollar cosmetics industry the right to control us, and they really don't need to fight us for it. And I fail to see how we can blame them for that. d'oh!

And that same principle applies to the other area of our lives. Think

Yes, I think we are on the same page. Just in different paragraphs?

Just as we, the people, gave the cosmetics industry the right to control how we feel about what we look like, it was also we, the people, who defined society's view of what men and women should or should not do.

It is, therefore, the responsibility of we, the people, to redefine those rules. But we cannot do that while hiding behind masks and whining about how unfair the rules are.

I say again, put away the masks and just go be who you are.

Please note that I do NOT say that will be easy. But, until we kick the "shark of fear" (thank you again Darlene for that piece) in the teeth and tell it to take a hike, we will remain exactly where we are.

[Ahzz]

"To make changes one must work from the inside"

I forget who said that quote. But it is true. An assault from the outside WILL be seen as just that. Someone from the inside that does it calmly and quietly will be seen only as a dissenter and not attacked (usually).

This is why anything that seems "radical" will always be marginalized by the masses in general. We must remember that these people really don't understand and are afraid of us.

My posts are basicly an attempt to explain things from the perspective of the masses so that they can see the reasons from their own perspective. NOT as a "this is the way it is and shall be" as my posts seem to be taken.

I'm a firm believer that change is best effected from the inside.

First you must be accepted. Hence the "posing as a woman".
Then yoiu can change the opinions/views of those that are willing to at least approach you.
Those in turn will stay quiet and leave the die hards standing alone against us when they find out the truth.
Without the Mob Mentality that drives society supporting them, they will wither away and eventually we will have the changes in society that we want.

From the outside, we will always be seen as "radicals" or "freaks" or "rebels" and that kind of person will get marginalized rather easilly by that same Mob mentality.

Basicly, we have to make THEM comfortable before they will listen. Fear is a tough one to break. Ask any psychiatrist that deals with phobias, because that is basicly what we are dealing with. Societies phobia of anything that they don't understand as a group.

So, please take my arguments as a perspective guide on how to best slip into the mob unseen/detected so that you can then change that mob from the inside.

Remember ladies, this is not war. This is psychotherapy for the masses that make up that Mob Mentality. The more agressive we are, the more we will get marginalized and be feared. Changes like this will take time. Just as we have all advocated to ourselfes, one small step at a time.

If this still doesn't make any sense, i'll try rewriting it as a "how to infiltrate and convert the masses" at a future time.

[Kathy]

Hi All,

Ahzz, I think we are just viewing the same problem from different perspectives. I actually do agree with much of what you are saying. I just think a bit differently about how to go about affecting the changes.

When I am out and about and amoung other "members of society" I don't see myself as being "outside". I see myself as being "inside" society. And I am every bit as much a member of that society as anyone around me. And if, by being myself and wearing whatever I want to wear, with confidence and without fear of reprisal, I can help others to realize that there is nothing to fear from me, then I am affecting that change from "inside".

But we are fighting fear of the unknown on two fronts. We are largely an unknown to society at large. We, in turn, fear the unknown consequences of dropping our masks and going out into society.

So, I ask, how does the unknown become known? I think the time for hiding behind the mask of presenting as women has passed. Crossdressers have been doing that for decades if not centuries. Mind you, I do not advocate donning our frilliest femme clothing to go shopping at the mall. But some nice stylish slacks and a feminine styled cardigan would do nicely.

As you say, an overt, in your face attack on societal norms would simply be rejected. But a more subdued, quiet approach like this, from the "inside" would go a long way toward showing others who we are.

Now I also know that, for many of us, there is that feeling of being a woman. While I personally don't feel that and therefore don't fully understand it, I do accept it. If presenting as a woman is the right thing for you then go out and enjoy. But I think there are a lot of us who, like me, just enjoy the clothes who are presenting as women because "its the thing to do". Again, I think that time has passed.

We cannot conquer fear on either front by hiding in our closets or behind our femme masks. We need to step outside our comfort zones and become known and not feared.

[Ahzz]

*nod* I agree. We are seeing it from different angles.

One thing to keep in mind though. For a society to consider you as a part of it, you must be accepted by that society. 8-P This is the key difference in our viewpoints I think. I seek to enact changes from within vs from the outside. Tween the two of us, *snip* cut em in half just like in war.
*cackles with glee*
oops, shouldn't get gleefull over conquest.

*edit portion* OOPs, I really MUST be getting tired. I missed the last part of your post. ;-P

Ahh well, I do agree that it is time to get out. The only problem is that we are loosing ground thanks to religous conservatives in our government who think that they know best and that they are our parents. 8-P

[Kathy]

To be accepted by society, we must first be visible to society. They will never accept what they cannot see.

And, one of these days the "moral minority" will run headlong into the "silent majority" and the sleeping giant will open its eyes just long enough to slap them down before falling fast asleep again.

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

I am not particularly religious, but I can't help but notice all the pictures of Jesus and the Desciples all show them with long hair, and wearing what looks a lot like a dress. Now I don't know if this is historically accurate garb for the time, but it appears that what is feminine or masculine clothes has a lot to do with where you are in the world, and in what time.

I think it is pointless to try to determine what is and is not appropriate clothing. I know that the feelings I have affect more than just clothes. It affects the kind sheets I buy. The kinds of pots and pans I use. The car I drive. The color of curtains I buy. It is much more than just trying to "be" a woman. I don't have a need to pass. I presume though that if I could, I would want to, if for no other reason than to just avoid attention. It would be nice to go out dressed exactly like I want, and draw no attention. It is my feeling that passing may have more to do with that, than anyone thinking they "are" a woman.

It is hard enough to be yourself when you don't have a gender identity issue, how can we be expected to be ourselves when no one wants us to?

Love always,
Elizabeth