What men and women SHOULD look like

[CJ]

Amélie,

You called me out on this one and preferred to bring this out in the open rather than exchange via PM as I'd done. This is actually not a bad idea as it gives us a chance to clear some things up for the benefit of new members.

In your videos, Amélie, you're massaging your breasts with a suggestive look on your face. It's sexually provocative and meant to be titillating. There's nothing wrong with this in itself (far from it) but this forum is not the place for it. I'll repeat: this forum is not the place for sexually provocative or titillating material. That kind of stuff (and, again, there's nothing inherently wrong with it) constitutes 90 some odd percent of the stuff you find on the internet. We've been through these issues before on this forum... even to the extent of asking for a show of hands concerning sexual frankness. It was deemed that this forum is better without it. Especially considering the number of SO's (and even minors) trying to come to grips with crossdressing.

Does this mean that we want to pretend that sex--gay, straight, or otherwise--doesn't exist? No. Does it mean that we (meaning the majority of members, not just the mods) think that this kind of stuff can be found elsewhere on the net? Yes.

The above photo of the bare-breasted woman is anything but sexually suggestive. None of this has anything to do with being clothed or naked, with being gay or straight, or with being "in the closet" or not. You can call people here prudes or cowardly all you want, Amélie, but you'd be judging people on their ability to abide by forum rules, not on their cool trendiness or moral courage.

And, yes, it's easy, Amélie, to tell people to "just get over it--so you wear women's clothes, big deal!" But it's only easy if you manage to forget the real pain and suffering some people feel regarding who and what they are. And I'd like to think you're not that callous; I've always known you as a caring person (and, this, even though you may be going through some pretty heavy manure of your own).

I'm sorry you don't like my decision to remove your video post. I was acting in a way I thought would not only best align with the forum's ground rules but would also best maintain the forum's privileged atmosphere. But, more than that, I'm sorry to see that you seem to think so little of us even though many, many people here (myself included) hold you in high esteem.

Take care, Amélie.

CJ

[Curly(SO)]

Hi Amelie,

Yes, It is OK to show a picture of topless woman holding her child, as it is so obviously not a sexual pose. The rules on sexual references on this forum are quite clear. They are here for a reason and it is not because the CDs here are scared of anything of an erotic nature.

For me, these rules make this forum a safe place to come. As it says under the title of this forum, this is a place for not only CDs but SOs, friends and family also. There are more male members on this forum than female, so if there was any erotic content I would not feel it an appropriate place for me to be involved in. I have nothing against erotica but I just would not feel it was a safe or suitable forum, as a married woman, to participate in. As it is at present, this forum is also a safe place for minors to visit, and parents of minors, who may be seeking information and support. This forum has always been intended to be that way, and as CJ rightly says, there are endless sites to visit if you want something more of a sexual nature. The rules are here to ensure this forum provides a safe and unthreatening environment for all.

If this site were like a lot of others, I would not have joined it. I would not know what I know now and that would be a real shame. Some of the threads may be boring and irrelevant to your world, but I have learned so much since being here and not just stuff that's relevant to my life. I've learned about and become more understanding of people that lead different lifestyles to me and that can only be a good thing.

I'm not scared of erotica or the sexual element to CDing. I'm well aware of it ! But it is not something I would feel comfortable discussing on a public forum.

Well, that's how it is for me!

Curly.

[Absaroka]

Obviouslyu there is a difference between nudity and sexuality. After all there are nudist places where you can be nude or clothed but you can not be revealingly attired.

Lots of very interesting questions in the last few posts. As far as I can see it this has to do with the decision to avoid having this forum become sexually expressive.

I have to ask why do I think this was a good decision? Because I do agree with it.

It seems that once the sex is put in (and I am not talking about discussing our feelings about sex in ways that are not arousing) it takes over and all else gets excluded. Which is unfortunate since I think there is a place for this. But somehow it just doesn't seem to work.

Then there is the factor of feeling "safe" as Curly and CJ have expressed. Why would all the sexual stuff make me feel unsafe? And I come down to the fact that even impersonal sex is pretty personal. It has to do with our space around our bodies and that sort of thing and all I need to do to put this in focus is thinnk about how even though it's okay with me and I trust and like my doctor it is pretty much impossible not to react to that physical exam men all get after a certain age.

It's hard to know where to draw the line. Our sexuality is a part of us. But we exclude it here in some ways and that can feel like rejection.

I think this related to a big part of societies problems with us. I think that for much of society a man wearing womens clothes is percieved as a sexual overture in and of itself and thus if it is done where one would rather not deal with such overtures it is disturbing.

Absaroka

[Carol Ann]

Hay just my $.02 worth, I have to with the moderates.
We have rules and thats why they are in place. This is a place I love to call home and be with people who understand what problems we cd'er may have and try and help one another, and we also express our funny side some times. I'll get down now Carol Ann

[Sally]

I'm certainly in favour of keeping any provcative suggestive sexual material out of this site. In this day and age there is a need for a place like this which is free of suggestive sexual content or anything which may go further.
We have enough problems as it is getting any semblance of acceptance from the general community and there has long been a need for a more conservative safer site for people to come to for support and assistance.

I believe the decision of the forum founders to establish such a place as this which can accommodate for each and everyone, both male and female, should be commended and supported and seen in the light it was intended. I had no problems with the mother and child, especially seeing that women from many third world countries naturally go about their day dressed as she was. I think it's a case of take things in the context for which they were meant, and from there we draw our conclusions of intent.

By saying all this I'm in no way 'bagging' anyone, I'm simply saying that there has to be some degree of moderating the guide lines or else it would become open slather to the elements we try to prevent from contaminating this site, as has happened to so many others. These are just my personal opinions and in no way are meant to offend anyone, all I'm saying is that an avalanche can start from just one small rolling pebble, so to speak.

Kind Regards,

Sally.

[SilverLady(SO)]

Hi, Amelie -

I have to agree with my Co-Moderators CJ and Curly, as well as Absaroka, Carol Ann, and Sally - your video was totally inappropriate for this forum and for all the reasons stated; I will not repeat them as they said it so well.

If you were to be honest with yourself, you would know - and admit - that you were wrong to post a link to that particular video on this forum. There is a time and place for everything, but not everything in 'this' place.

You made a mistake, Amelie, pure and simple. Please do not compound that mistake by saying something that you will surely regret later.

*Hugs*

- SL

[TracyQ]

Well, I have to put my $0.02 in here, I guess.

I didn't see the post, but from what I read here, it was just a link, right? I don't know what the context was where the link was posted, so tell me, was it a total surprise? Or was the content of the link explained in any way?

I agree with a lot of what Amelie said, sadly. The fear, seemingly, the absolute abhorrance, of admitting that there is a very strong sexual component to crossdressing is duplicitous, at best. Can we say "masturbation", can we say "fetish"? Can we say "sexual fantasy"?

I do realize that SO's visit here, and that they may not want to hear that their "man" may have fantisies about other men. For all I know, none of their crossdressing men do have those fantasies, but is the discussion of that, itself, so frightening? Well, yes, on 2nd thought, I suppose it is, and that is certainly understandable. Understandable, but not, IMHO, laudable. We, all of us, only grow when we face and overcome our fears.

I do understand the mods position, but it seems like everyone is ganging up on Amelie, and I really like her honesty and integrity, and most especially perhaps, her willingness to go against the flow when she knows she's going to be dumped on.

Amelie,

[Jeannie]

I didn't see Amelie's video but I tend tend agree with Tracy. After reading many posts for the last six months I feel a vast majority of crossdressers do it for the erotic or sexual thrill. They do it under the guise of "Getting in touch with my feminine side" which in my opinion is BS.
For me it has no erotic thrill whatsoever. I'm just more comfortable as a woman than a man and most on these sites can't understand that. Most crossdressers in my humble opinion are sexual fetish dressers and won't admit it to themselves or their partners. They coerice thier partners into sharing their sexual fantasies and have sex with them as men. Men want one thing and will do anything to get what they want. That's just how I feel. Hugs


Love
Jeannie

[Amelie-Laveau]

OK, you ;ot don’t think that the pic of the third world woman isn’t sexual. But what if it was sexual to at least one person, would it then be considered sexual? How many people would it take for the pic to be considered sexual? What I am saying is that this forum has a narrow minded view of what is sexual and what isn’t. These CD forums are all the same, one person(usually a mod) can post a pic of a naked woman but other members are not allowed. So, If I was to post a pic of me topless holding a child with sticks through my nose, this pic would be OK to post on this forum??? The posting of the third world woman is just snotty liberal attitudes that say that liberals can exploit a jungle woman by showing her naked pic but western woman should show more tact and refrain from doing the same. High class liberal crap.

OK, if it is OK to post a pic of this woman then why don’t at least one CD here have their wife, daughter, mother post a similar pic, hey, if this pic is so beautiful, then why don’t one of the Ggs post the same pic, what is the fear in doing this, the thirld world woman did it. She probably did it without the knowledge that it would be splattered all over the web, not like you Ggs who would have the choice to post a pic, I’m sure she didn’t have the same choice as you GG would have, oh, maybe the photographer gave her a cigarette lighter or some beads for the pic. Did CJ get permission from this woman for putting her pic up,Didn’t anyone here think that maybe she has a family, that should have been asked how her pic would be put up on a CD web site, NO, nobody here would ask this woman’s family, they are basically
Animals in the jungle,types Liberals don’t have to worry about things like that, they jut do what they want without asking., this is typical liberal superior ignorance of others.

I will say this again, this forum and other CD forums are basically cowards, they fear anything sexual, no matter how small. Yea Yea, I know, I heard it all, we want a clean site, I won’t come here if the site has things sexual, there are other sites with sex go there, Yea , the same things that Jerry Falwell might have said. It doesn’t matter how you sugar coat your responses, you are all in fear of things sexual, and this in turn brings up the word coward. And this is really a fear of nothing, which makes it all the more bizarre. It is the same fear that traps some of you in the closet, a fear of nothing really, it is al inside of your heads. I am on goth sites with mostly 20 year olds and they have no fear in things sexual, why then are a bunch of 40 and 50 year old men filled with this fear? Itseems like most of you are living in the 1950’s. It’s like the hippie freedom of the sixties ahs never happened, it’s like the do what you want70’s is just a myth. Why are you all living like it’s Leave it to Beaver Land? Oopps, I said beaver.

And I have nothing to regret now or later Silver Lady. When I feel that I am right, I have nothing to regret. It is people who are unfair to others that have to worry about saying things regretful. These CD forums have always been this way since I joined them.

Anyway, why should I feel regretful, what is going to happen? Am I going to be banned,,,whoaaa, now this is something even I fear most in life.
Tell me everyone, how does it feel to be banned s it a good feeling? Is it like over dosing on heroin? Is it like being gang raped and beaten by four thugs? Is it like spending time in jail? Is it like hearing that your best friend has killed herself? Go ahead, ban me, I think that I can handle it.
No, better yet, I’ll ban myself so I can get this feeling now, why wait for this feeling.

Bye to the friends I had here, it was fun for awhile.
Amelie


.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Amélie,

I'd be sad to see you go and I hope you decide to stay once things have calmed down a little. Banning anyone merely for their having expressed their views is the furthest thing from my (or anyone's) mind, if those views--however different--contribute to a healthy atmosphere on the forum. When I say "healthy," I mean this: respectful of all views while abiding by the forum's rules.

Amélie, it's not other people's views you should be attacking (for example, my being a liberal ignorant), it's the forum's rules that are your true target. Attacking other people's views fosters only bitterness on either side. Attacking rules, on the other hand, is a legitimate thing. But this is the strange thing about rules: they can be bent, they can be broken, they can be made less rigid, they can be changed. Far be it from me to have to explain to anyone the power of protest in this regard (see? although I was too young, I'm not unaware of the influence of the Sixties). Yes, the forum rules were made by someone, for sure. They were made by all who chose to participate on the forum, including yourself. There are people here who are conservative and liberal, Christian and atheists (or Wiccans or Buddhists or Jewish or what have you), rich and poor, educated and not, street-smart and not; there are people who say what they mean and some who don't; there are people who think with their hearts and some who think with their heads; there are some who revel in their sexuality (or even in their genitality) and some who are afraid of it; there are straights, there are gays, and there are bisexuals; there are people who are married and people who aren't; there's a whole mixed bag of people on this forum. They all have one thing in common: they've contributed to giving this place the flavour it has by both abiding by the forum rules as well as by seeking changes to those very same rules when the opportunity (and necessity) arose to do so.

Neither Sharon nor Shannon nor even the mods rule this as if it were some magical kingdom. The opinions of the members matter and, like in a true democracy, every effort will be made to attend not only to the wishes but to the actual life experience of those members. As such, it's not possible (and neither is it even desirable) to please every single individual. We are all too different for that to ever happen. Plus, some people will never be contented, no matter what happens in their lives.

As things stand, the consensus is this: sexual frankness (and, trust me, Amélie, you have little idea of just how sexually frank many members here can be) is not an ingredient that most people here feel will add anything significant to the forum's atmosphere. There are tons of sites out there on the internet devoted to she-male sex in all its forms (and some of them quite intriguing, to say the least). But this one isn't one of them.

I remember reading a book when I was a teenager called The Rape of the A*P*E (American Puritan Ethic) by Allan Sherman. At some point, the author listed, in decreasing order of importance, what he thought were the most significant of human pleasures. It went like this:

- eat
- drink
- sleep
- manure
- piss
- bubbles
- play

(To this list, I would add--somewhere in between "sleep" and "manure"--the word "think.") I think that list holds true, to a large extent, even though those pleasures merely focus on the body. I mention this list simply in order to highlight the fact that I seriously doubt that anybody here, myself included, would have a bone to pick with any item on the list. Yes, we have sex. In all kinds of ways and in all kinds of contexts. And, yes, it brings us pleasure. And pleasure is not something to fear.

But this forum, by design as well as by consensus, is not the place for the frank exposition of sexual pleasure--even though it's safe to assume most of us here experience it in one form or another. This is not hypocrisy. It's merely a matter of focus. Other sites focus on helping people "get their rocks off" (and I tell you, Amélie, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that in itself) but, to repeat, this site is not one of them.

I was talking about this whole situation with Beauty a few days ago and I told her how it reminded me of my own situation when I first joined the forum. I'd been here maybe three months when I posted some of my pix on the gallery which I thought were fine even though two or three of those were "lingerie" shots. Well, Beauty asked me to remove those two or three shots just because I had an "orgasmic" expression on my face. Too sexually frank, she thought. She felt super bad at having to ask me to do this. But I totally understood and removed them right away while assuring Beauty that she had nothing to feel bad about--she was just doing her job. The funny thing is, Amélie, those two or three pix were totally vanilla by the forum's current standards and the gallery now carries many risqué (yet tasteful) photos and, thanks to Jadeanne's hard work, it's actually a pleasure to visit the gallery.

In the end (no pun intended), people come here for psychological and emotional support more than they do for titillation. Yes, that does, indeed, presuppose that they're having trouble dealing with this aspect of who they are (or of who their husband or boyfriend is) but that's the great strength of this forum and it's what keeps me here even though I don't necessarily share many people's social, political, or religious views. This flowering of diversity (and, yes, I can see this for the liberal snobbery that some people believe it to be) in an atmosphere of mutual respect not focused on talk of cocks and bubbles is why this is a good place to come to.

I'm sorry, Amélie, if you're offended by the particular reality of this forum. We both know I never meant to hurt you or anyone. And, if you're honest with yourself, you'll admit at least that much. Privately, I held my hand out to you and I said, "Call me. I'd love to talk with you, Amélie." One of the reasons I did this is because I know you have a lot on your mind about the stuff going on in your life that you can't really talk about on this particular forum. That offer still stands, Amélie. I've told you before and I'll tell you again; you have an edgy, hard-won, street-smart brand of wisdom that's an asset in your encounters with people and I'd rather you reconsider depriving people of it here.

As for the "pictures of naked third-world women," or of my believing that I have a right, over and above anybody else, to post nude photos, it's a matter of context. I truly hope you can see that. The beauty of women, naked or not, isn't always linked to sex. Well, okay, not for me, anyway. My using vulgar terms, as I did in this post, is also a matter of context. Even so, I'm fully aware that, even though I'm a moderator, there's a distinct possibility my post might be edited by the powers that be. Why? Because, even though the post abides by the spirit of the law (respectful attitudes), it violates its letter (vulgarity).

We'd all do well to reread the forum's rules and guidelines. And then, maybe, to participate in respectful discussions regarding them (as we've done in the past) rather than quitting the forum in a huff after having taken pot shots at this or that member.

As usual, I wish you well, Amélie. You know I care.

CJ

[Absaroka]

All this over some pictures.


I don't want to start a contest here. I've never been raped but I have known a lot of men who have. I've known an awful lot of men who spent a lot of time incarcerated, often as children, and you don't have to read between too many lines to know what they aren't saying about their time there. In my experience women are a lot more comfortable talking about this but they hate to talk about it also. But it gets said at least.

My best male friend was raped by 6 men in jail. He was only there a week. I had a woman friend who was held captive for a week in a basement and had accepted and come to terms with her own immenent death. Then for some reason, maybe they wanted her to live with her memories of humiliation and terrror, they let her go. Her attackers were never caught.

My roomate jumped off a building. Gone forever. One of my best woman friends died of a painkiller O.D.

I cleaned up the blood after my mom slit her wrists and my brother had taken her to the hospital. The worst thing about this was I really wished she had died. It took a long time to deal with that. Anger was such a comfort for so long. Blood smells awful by the way and I almost vomited from the smell. I will also never forget what she said when we found her although I am not going to repeat it here. It wasn't very pleasant.

Ever try robbing someone at gunpoint and they look you right in the eye and say no when you demand their money? And then wondered now what do I do?

The point of this is that you are not alone. These things happen to a lot more people than is generally known. You never know, the treasurer in your church might have been a dope fiend who has forgotten how many incarcerations he had or how many times he O.D.d, chased cars for a trick or robbed helpless little old ladies. And the straightlaced middle class repectable type who never did any of these things may have felt even deeper despair over stuff that society says is normal but still equally devastating. Like having your own child die slowly and painfully of cancer. That sort of experience will profoundly cahnge someone forever. They lose a piece of themselves that can never be regained and the fact that it wasn't societally taboo DOES NOT HELP.

These forums are a place for us to talk about how we feel and raise questions. To hear from other people. I've learned a lot here. But the truth of the matter is that CDing is a pastime, a hobby (yes I know folks here don't like that word) and does not define me. If it was running my life to the point that other issues which have been real problems for me have in the past, I would be doing an awful lot more than perusing websites to try to address it.

So here's the question. Are you getting mad about the picture because it's a wonderful way to show that we are all useless confused hypocrites who can't possibly understand you? Was that picture so much of how you see yourself that you feel like we struck at your heart, attacked you, by banning it? Or are you just asking us to co sign to the idea that you don't belong, wherever it is that you are? To say that you are too street to possibly fit in with us white bread types?


I hope to hear more from you but this is all up to you Amelie.

Absaroka

[SilverLady(SO)]

I am pleased that overall this discussion is being conducted in a civilized manner.

As CJ has so eloquently pointed out, this forum has rules that were made by the forum's owners and by all of us who chose - voluntarily - to participate in this forum and yes, Amelie, that includes you. There are a wide variety of members on this forum and yet there is that one thing we all have in common: we do abide by the rules of this forum.

Like any living thing, this forum does change when opportunity presents itself and when it needs to change for the greater good of the members. One example, as CJ pointed out, is that now some 'lingerie shots' are acceptable in the Gallery, whereas originally they were not allowed. Forums have been added to adapt to the needs of the members, for the greater good of the members, to wit the Dear GG, Transgender Issues, and Upcoming Events sections.

One thing that I am very certain of, and I will not personally be a part of in this forum, posts or links to any web sites which are sexually provocative or suggestive will not be tolerated in any shape or form. I am far from being a prude, nor do I fear a civilized discussion of sex or sexuality. However, THIS forum is not the place for it, it is not within the scope and parameters of the forum's mission, nor is it necessary for the greater good of the members.

If members feel that they need a forum wherein they may discuss their sexuality and there isn't one readily available, then I offer you this suggestion: start one of your own.

CJ wrote:

I'm fully aware that, even though I'm a moderator, there's a distinct possibility my post might be edited by the powers that be. Why? Because, even though the post abides by the spirit of the law (respectful attitudes), it violates its letter (vulgarity).

True, CJ - and even though I am a Moderator for this particular forum, I fully intend to leave your post as written. Why? Because even though it may violate 'the letter' of the forum's guidelines by its vulgarity, you have posted it in such a way that it does abide by 'the spirit' of the guidelines, which is being respectful at all times. No matter the discussion, CJ, I have always found you to be most respectful towards others - - a trait that I highly admire in you.

Rules and guidelines exist for a reason - and as long as people exist, so will rules and guidelines in one form or another. That is a fact of life.

Enough said.

- SL

[Curly(SO)]

Amelie,

Yes, and some people may find a pic of my left foot sexual (it is sooo much sexier than my right foot ) but let's not insult anyone's intelligence by going down that road.

you are all in fear of things sexual, and this in turn brings up the word coward

No, I can only speak for myself and my husband, but we are certainly not in fear...we have talked endlessly and openly about all things sexual, CD related and fetish related...we are members of other sites with more adult content and yes, I've even posted some erotic pics but this is not the place where I would ever do that. I feel safe doing that on those other sites as I have remained more anonymous, the sites serve a different purpose and the rules are different. It's not about being scared of sex, it's just this is a different type of forum...you know what I'm saying, Amelie!

Let's get over this and get on with it!

Love,
Curly.

[Jeannie]

Isn't that what a forums about? Telling what is on your mind. It's no big deal. If you have a disagreement with a moderator that's fine. Not everyone gets along.That's life. Rules are always challenged. They are made to broken and often are. You can't fault a person for telling how they feel. You might not agree but as Dennis Leary says"Life sucks. Get a helmit!" Hugs


Love
Jeannie

PS. One word of caution to you Curly. If you think you are safe and anonymous on any sight on the internet you are dead wrong. You are the public domain to every government, hacker or person with bad intent. If you post erotic pictures you are even more at risk. If you don't care who reads your posts or sees your pictures that's fine. But if you believe that your thoughts and photos will only be seen by persons you intend to see them and no others. You're playing with fire. Don't do it Hun. It's living in fantasy land. Everything you do on any site is stored and can be linked directly back to you. Look what the Bush administration is doing as we speak. They are gathering all the records from top search engines and carefully going over each and every one. From those records they can assertain who you are,where you are and everything about you that you so innocently reveal to them. Your connection to the internet is an imbilical cord that leads to only one place. Back to you.
My best friend who died last year was a library director and under the Patriot Act the FBI or NSA can go to any library whenever they feel like and get the records of anyone they feel might be a threat. The employees can't tell that person they are being monitored or he/she will be subject to arrest.
Think long and hard before you post anything on the internet or it will come back to haunt you.

[Curly(SO)]

Hi Jeannie,

I hear what you're saying but don't worry, There are absolutely no pics of me that I wouldn't want anyone to see. There is no nudity, in fact I'd be happy for my daughter parents and grandparents to see them

Love,
Curly.