How do you spot a troll?

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

I agree with Darlene. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Merinda]

Ahzz ,

Thanks for clearing that up

I have tried to be careful in the way I did the schoolgirl photosessions by ,

taking my daughter with me as protection and witness to my intent

not photoing near any schools

the uniforms are from schools across town and dont match anything local


If there was a male outside a school during school hours dressed in that schools uniform I wouldn't blame anyone for being suspicious.

My only purpose of the schoolgirl look was to live out a re-occuring dream that has haunted me since a work collegue dressed as a schoolgirl at a party and passed in public.
I have for years drempt of myself being out in public wearing a green uniform , in 2004 I have turned that dream into reality.


BTW there's nothing wrong with treehuggers , we dont want a bald planet,
a bald planet is a dead planet .

[Ahzz]

well, I assumed that everyone knew that this was about online trolling, not real life getups. Sides, you are too cute in that outfit to insult!

[Ahzz]

And now for the next installment of troll talk....

One of the methods that I use in spotting a troll is the way the person "speaks" online. A troll doens't have to be blatant to be a troll.

When a person writes something, there is always an underlying base of emotions that "seep" into the words chosen, the punctuation, the attitude, so to speak. Wehn what is read between the lines is not in sync with what is being said it raises one of many red flags. Sort of like how we know when a person is telling us a lie to our faces.

You may ask why I talk about looking for subtler things than "you suck!" or "your an idiot!" in a troll's postings....

You see, I believe that a troll isn't just someone out to stir things up. A troll by definition is someone that writes specific things with the sole purpose to elicit a reaction from his targets. They could be looking for rage, or sympathy, or even to be seen as a technical guru, or a know it all. Many people overlook the subtler trolls of the net. The stalker troll is one we read about in the news where they lure kids or women into a physical trap.

[Lorna]

Hi girls,

I agree with Darlene. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves.

Love always,
Elizabeth

There ya go, hon...

[Loretta Ann]

Ahzz

I don't think I want to go there. I prefer to deal with them as they reveal themselves.

[Amelie-Laveau]

Now I'm confused again??? There is something out there called a subtle troll. How can you be positive, this is starting to sound like drag-McCarthism. How can you see this in punctuation or attitude? Like Alexandra saidif you get the wrong person it could be damaging, from reading these threads, people are very emotional, this would not help them. I am paranoid, sorry I can't help it, years of hate has left it in my head. I was on another site(notCDing) where everyone basicaly ignored me, then the first week I'm here I get an E-Mail saying liar, I can't help but think of troll. I know this is not the case, cause there are so many nice people here. But if another girl, with fragile emotions gets accused of being a troll, or worse is given the silent tratment, it would be a very sad thing. The criteria you use is not enough to say who is a troll, it's almost like saying we'll read your palm to know if your not a troll. Thee will be people who tell lies, so what, if you don't get emotionaly or financialy involved with that person, no harm will be done. I read lots of ficticious books, even though they are not true I still enjoy the stories.

I have been dressing and going out for many years, I've heard lots of stories, and I find the girls to exaggerate from time to time. It is to be expected, people are like that, some stories here are a little hard to take, but never in my life would I call someone a liar or a troll.

All I'm saying is unless it is clear someone is bad, be careful what you say, it could be very hurtful, and could possibly come back and bite you, as in Voodoo, what you do will come back to haunt you.

Amelie-Laveau

I

[Ahzz]

Ahzz

I don't think I want to go there. I prefer to deal with them as they reveal themselves.

Can't fault you for not wanting to run into them or go looking for them. They are nasty creatures.

Personally I feel that when someone has a talent for something like this that can be used for good, then they have a responsibility to at least pay decent attention to their suroundings and do a little to help others who dont' have that talent. It's just like if I see someone lurking around and they appear to be up to no good, I keep a better eye on them than I normally would. Granted most trolls aren't dangerous in the physical sense of the word like a "there in person" stalker or thug, but they do cause their own kinds of damage.

Some of us will do this by alerting admins to the presense of someone that appears to be trolling if the admins have not noticed yet. However the majority of humans will just sit back and say "someone else will deal with this".

Please don't think i'm chiding you or take offense at anything that I have said in this thread. That is not my intent by a long shot. I just see things from the viewpoint of having many years of experience at being an admin and/or moderator at various places on the net.

Some just aren't the right type of personality or disposition to deal with this kind of watchfullness. Just like some people make great cops, some make great detectives, but the majority of people only make decent observers IMO.

That makes me ask the next question, what kind of personality and talent do youi feel would make a good moderator and/or admin? Our curent admins and moderators make for a good example of the right kinds of people IMHO.

I spose I should say that the whole purpose of this is for me to give others an insight into how I do things and to gain some insight into the viewpoint of those that aren't like myself. Not to make anyone think that they have to be contantly vigilant in order to be a good netizen. That would be arguing for a publicly driven Big Brother situation IMO. I do believe though that the net has become just as dangerous as walking down the street, and as such everyone needs to be as watchfull as the environment dictates for personal safety.

[Ahzz]

Subtle trolls can be just as dangerous if not more dangerous to a board as a loud troll. Imagine this, a subtle troll finds a nice harmonious forum like ours. They decide to see if they can't get the group turning against itself. To do this they ask carefully phrased questions and make seemingly benign statements with the specific intent of bringing disagreements into the front. This can be just as destructive if not more if they are able to lead the conversations into areas that put friends at odds with each other in a way that it becomes a war.

Of course, a person could do this by accident as well, but it would be accident, not a delibrate attempt to turn people against each other just for the fun of doing so. 8-P

With the subtle ones it's more an aspect of noticing the small things that seem out of place, and gut instinct. These can be handled by steerign a topic away from teh rough ground, or by gently reminding people that it's just a discussion, not a personal thing.

[Amelie-Laveau]

I have never seen this type of person, but I can say one thing looking for subtle trolls will be just as damaging as having trolls. If you don't know for sure what a troll is,how do you know it's not a troll leading the anti-troll brigade. How do we know from your reasoning that you are not a troll. From your avatar is a cat, you could be anybody out there, a 15 year old kid to John Ascroft. This sounds like a witch-hunt that only good people will get hurt. I am sorry I ever heard the word troll. I can not be part of a forum that will conduct a troll hunt on the criteria you mentioned(Punctuation, attitude) For I have both A bad Attitude and bad Punctuation.
This is the same crap that came from the queens I met in the clubs, The Tootsie queens they were called. They had some kind of high moral standards than the other girls. With them you had to beware of the working CD because they were bad. they had there secret ways of knowing who was good or not.
I left those clubs and I can easily leave this forum to the anti-troll brigade.

Amelie Laveau

[Jassmine(SO)]

Hi Amelie,

Hmmmm.......I am not sure just how to describe the gift I have. I have a very strong sense of empathy. I have always been very good at "reading between the lines" and "reading" people. Can't explain how I am able to do this I have found it to be a most useful ability to help me avoid people I should be avoiding, my hackles just go up and I get very uncomfortable. As Ahzz stated, people with this ability, (although I believe we all have it, some are just more "in tune" with it than others ) is what makes for a good detective, intellegence agent, psychiatrist, nurse, doctor, FBI profiler, etc......

When I read a good poem it stirs my emotions, I can feel what the poet was feeling when he/she wrote it, as is the point of poetry. The expression of one's feelings in words. When I read the posts here, I can also sense the emotions in and between the words. Sounds crazy, I know But I am sure y'all can relate to a certain extent to what I am talking about. What Ahzz is getting at is when there isn't that sense of emotion in the words, or if a post reads like a script. If it is too perfect. I really don't know how to explain it any better than that

Ah, if you want to see a picture of Ahzz, I have some posted in the forum's gallery I put that avatar up for Ahzz, it's out kitty Spook Ahzz has a very felinish disposistion ##oo##

*Hugs & Love*

[Ahzz]

quick note: once again, this is all discussion of things, NOT what's going to happen, nor what is happeneing, here, or anywhere, It is merely *theory* and discussion. If anyone takes offense, please, stop, take a breath, and understand, NONE of this is beign applied to ANYONE here at all.

Ok, now that the reminder to everyone to NOT take anything personally, or as action, or anything is done...

On the punctuation, I should have been more explicit. The red flag is one of perfection. Humans make mistakes, they let emotion show through. There is somethign to be read between the lines. Trolls that are writing will tend to leave out the between the lines stuff, or it simply won't jive with what is being said. Once again, this is just a red flag, not a certainty that it IS a troll, nor anythign to hunt with exclusively.

None of this is about holding people to standards, rather looking for hallmarks. You are right Amelie-Laveau about the fact that some people take it too far and cause more problems than they solve. This is why a: it's personal views used to be wary of getting itno a potential problem, b: methods admins can use to spot problems before they start. This is nothign to be taken as definitive or for certain.

if it's taken too far, yes, it can be damaging. But this is the same kind of balance you have to strike in real life. Is that person really just walking the same way as me, or are they following me for an ulterior motive? You see, it's about self awareness and surroundings, NOT about leading a witch hunt, or as you said " The Tootsie queens". They are people out to do something quite different. They are there to persecute.

I guess I should have explained far more up front. NONE of this is about taking action against them publicly. Public action against trolls rarely has the desired effect. After all, public action got them a reaction. And that is what they want. Therefore, by not getting caught in the trap of giving them what they want, you have already done the most important thing with a troll. kept him starving and bored.

This brings up the next part.... What to do with a suspected or known troll....

suspected, nothing, you watch, you wait, they WILL eventually reveal themselves and by being aware you can easilly restrain yoruself from biting at the bait. If you have a really good feeling, you can mention privately to an admin that you suspect said person is a troll. That's it.

Now a known troll, one that has reveealed themselves for what they are, will be dealt with by the administrators. It's not really up to the users to deal with them, only to be aware and keep from falling into the trap of responding with what they want. Users must ignore them completely, not even publicly saying the person is a troll. Leave that to the moderator/admin. They after all have the power to ban the troll and or other forms of dealing as they see fit.

As others have said before, simply ignoring a troll is the singularly best way to deal with a troll. no reaction, no reward, no fun, they leave.
---

A side note for everyone reading this....
Beauty was right, this topic can become personal and degrade quickly IF people make the assumption that if techniques thare are used happen to match them in part, it is in NO way turnign them into or acusing, or pointing them out as a troll.

The enforcers out there (admins, moderators, public defenders) have many years of experience in these things usually. They know when things are just indicators that are false positives. The good ones know where that fine line is between being paranoid and being observant is. Some even do it without realizing exactly how they spot a troll.

My hope with the thread is to help the users understand how to best defend themselves from being "hooked" by the trolls, and why admins sometimes do the things that they do when dealing with trolls.

I will do my best to be as clear as possible. However, I too am human. I match some of the flags I've talked about so far. But am I a troll? No, because I'm not saying anythign to get a reaction. I'm hoping to educate people based on my years of experience as a user and as an admin. SO, if you are ofended by anything that I say, please dont' get upset, just let me, or the person posting know in a polite way that they could have said it better, or clearer. WIth our inteligent group, all will be well.

*hands the nurse a lolly-pop in thanks for her patience*

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

Ahzz is correct, and dose not need to defend herself, s/he is not a troll IMO. A tree hugger yes by his own admission, but he and his wife have brought a lot of good to this forum.

The kind of people Ahzz is talking about exist in this world, some of them are very disruptive, and indeed need to be removed from certain places due to the simple fact that if they are not the place will die. If it continues to exist, it certainly will not be a healthy place.

While I don't see myself as a tree hugger, there are certain things that Ahzz has posted that indicate that we are on the same page with certain issues.

Upon reflection there are times when I am posting, that I am in pain from Fibromyalgia, and all I want to do is get my point across as quick as I can. At times like this I am short of patience and I am sure my attitude, and punctuation leaves something to be desired. That is part of life, and dose not have anything to do with being a troll.

I simply see the solution as being one where those of us who are able to learn to do what ever is necessary to take care of themselves (love our selves) will be the ones who survive, and will be able to contribute to a healthy environment.

We come together here with different gifts, that is what makes us a teem. for example, I do not see myself having the gifts to be a moderator, so I gladly leave that chore up to those who are better gifted in that area. And concentrate on those things that I am good at.

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls.

I think I will throw in here one more time. This may surprise a lot of you, but I was a senior member of and IRC channel called #!!!_insults. This was a place where the most intelligent trolls tested thier wits against each other and newbies to see who would take the bait.

This channel was later changed to #corruption and finally #netchat. And with the name changes, not much else changed, except victims are not even warned what they are entering.

As a result of my participation in this channel was with some of the smartest people I have ever met, I learned a great deal about trolls and trolling. But the channel itself really was good vs evil. By the time I was there about a year, I became the leader of the good faction and the person who controlled the bots, and hence who could stay in the channel and who could not.

The evil faction continually tried to take over the channel, or make phony peace to cause problems. As a result I think I have seen every kind of troll out there, since the object of the channel was to indeed insult others. But as the intelligence level rises, this becomes more and more difficult, and the subtilties of trolling really come into play.

In the end, what Ahzzz says is true. All trolls will end up exposing themselves, and thier game if you pay attention to what they say and do. A lot of times they use alliances so they can get others to do thier work, for instance. I have been fooled many times by people who turned out to be trolls. But from each I learned something. What I learned is to be patient.

It has always proved true that given time all people, no matter how good they are at the game, will expose who they truely are. There are people here, and I won't say thier names, but I can tell by the questions they ask, they are professional troll spotters. I feel very safe here, and as far as I know, I have never seen a troll here.

I know others do get concerned about someone being pigeon holed, simply because they are a "jerk". I mean let's face it, some people just do not have a nice demeanor. But none the less, still need our love and support. Like I said, I feel very confident in our moderators to handle this. They give a lot of room to express oneself, while cooling things off when necessary.

Just one girls opinion

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Ahzz]

Interesting channel. It sounds like a great place to learn some new tricks from.

I agree that the admins here do an excelent job. They are some of the best admins that I have ever come across in my many years as a netizen. There is no doubt in my mind that it's not just the maturity of the board members, but also a huge part the admins abilities that make this an excelent place to be.

I must say this though, good admins are only the forefront and the battle against trolls. Aware and patient users are also key to a well oiled public forum. It was this that I intended to help with a bit by bringing the methods of a good admin to the forefront of the users consiousness.

To be bluntly honest, I'm VERY surprised that in the months that I have been here, that I have yet to see a single blatant troll. This I can only attribute to presently unknown habits and actiosn that the admins have done to far.

This is the type of topics that tend to draw trolls like a plague. As we grow in membership we will eventually draw both the blatant and the stealth trolls. Thus, I believe that it is important that the users and the admins be able to understand each other when the trolls do eventually appear.

Ok, I'll depart from my soap box for now. Though I would love to hear from our admins on their viewpoints and methodology just so that we as the users can support them in the best ways possible.