Gee I think I get your point pretty well.
To answer your first questions, although I have not been to the point that you have been I have had the idea of killing myself as a sort of distant plan Z at times. Never got to where it was immenent.
I did live with a man who jumped off a 6 story building. It was a long time ago. My strongest feelings about it where I just wish I could have told him to hang in there, it couldn't possibly stay this bad. And that he made a really big mistake when he jumped.
Closer to home my parents both tried to kill both themselves and a couple of times each other. Mostly these were gestures but my father made a very serious attempt which almost succeeded. I was angry enough about it that it was a long time before I could tell people I was glad he was still alive.
I think it would be okay if people wanted to volunteer their numbers. But it would need to be completely voluntary as as mentioned the anonymity here is a big attraction to some. Me for example.
However....when someone is seriously suicidal it is past time for internet friends to be calling on the phone hoping that it works and also hoping that they are not being manipulated. I hate to sound harsh here but I did have some experience with this on another unrelated forum. The whole thing turned out to be maudlin drunken ramblings ending in the person safely passed out-in Beijing if I am to believe what they said.
If someone is seriously suicidal the person here with the phone number needs to first call the local 911 or suicide prevention center. Because if our phone call fails then how can we ask our members here to live with that sort of guilt?
My brother in law was suicidal at one point. He called us and we stayed with him for the night. In the morning we were faced with the problem of believing him if he said he no longer felt suicidal. I was completely at a loss. I went into another room and prayed for a few moments and then went to talk to him not knowing what in the world I was going to say. We talked a bit and I said that things were past the point where we could be sure we could protect him from his own despair. At that point I felt like we could leave him alone and maybe have him kill himself, or have him committed and I would be the jerk who had my inlaws son locked up. Hanging out with him till he felt better was an unrealistic option I have found since how in the world can you know where someone is at with this. What happens next week? Understand that I have had a number of other friends, not close friends, but people I knew to hang out with, who did things like blow their brains out. I am way, way past thinking one conversation can be depended on to turn things around. True often one special kind word makes all the difference. But what about the times when it not enough? What about the fact that sometimes when someone has truly decided to kill themselves they finally feel a sense of peace and are able to convince everyone that they are now okay?
We talked a little more and as the reality of what he had attempted the night before sank in he agreed to go to the local mental health clinic where he stayed for a couple of weeks. And 20 years later he is still alive and fairly happy.
So anyway sure if people want to volunteer their names for this sort of thing that might be nice. But lets not have any illusions about how effective we might be. And if someone here tells me they are going to kill themselves be advised that I will do what is in my power to stop them, including calling the police, saying this person wants to kill themselves, and you'd better go to their house, arrest them, and commit them NOW. And at the committment proceedings if neccesary I'll make available everything they said to me and anything else here on the forum that may be relevant.
Absaroka
How Often have you been close to death as Cathii was????????
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
-
Stephanie W
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:57 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Gelinda
Good to see you back here again and I'm glad that you're able to talk about your feelings which I hope helps to lighten the load in times of despair.
Your suggestion of having contact numbers "just in case", for people who might be experiencing suicidal thoughts is a valid one and I know it was well intentioned. Like others have said though, the ramifications are just as valid. I think if someone wants to willingly pass along their contact information for their own piece of mind, then more power to them, as long as the Admin folks are OK with that.
Anyway, I do hope you are in a better place yourself and you will find a way to work through any lingering issues that you may experience from time to time. While I have been fortunate to never having experienced the extreme despair that others have, I do know all to well what it's like carrying something we may be ashamed of, or cannot reconcile with. I did that for more years than I care to remember. In my case, I chose to embrace this part of me which was a crucial step to finding peace within myself. Ultimately though, it's how we choose to deal with it that makes the difference, and in a forum like this, you have no shortage of supportive people to help and guide you along the way.
I wish you success and hope you get to experience the joy that comes with accepting and being proud of who you are. There's nothing quite like it.
Stephanie
Good to see you back here again and I'm glad that you're able to talk about your feelings which I hope helps to lighten the load in times of despair.
Your suggestion of having contact numbers "just in case", for people who might be experiencing suicidal thoughts is a valid one and I know it was well intentioned. Like others have said though, the ramifications are just as valid. I think if someone wants to willingly pass along their contact information for their own piece of mind, then more power to them, as long as the Admin folks are OK with that.
Anyway, I do hope you are in a better place yourself and you will find a way to work through any lingering issues that you may experience from time to time. While I have been fortunate to never having experienced the extreme despair that others have, I do know all to well what it's like carrying something we may be ashamed of, or cannot reconcile with. I did that for more years than I care to remember. In my case, I chose to embrace this part of me which was a crucial step to finding peace within myself. Ultimately though, it's how we choose to deal with it that makes the difference, and in a forum like this, you have no shortage of supportive people to help and guide you along the way.
I wish you success and hope you get to experience the joy that comes with accepting and being proud of who you are. There's nothing quite like it.
Stephanie
-
CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Again, I'm chiming in because I think this is a crucial matter--especially given that members of our community are, statistics say, more likely to attempt committing suicide.
First, it's incredibly difficult to "say the right thing" to a suicidal person if you don't know that person very well (as is often the case in online friendships), not to mention the fact that doing so "remotely"--through forums or e-mails or even phone conversations--makes it that much harder. Not impossible, mind you. Just harder.
Now, I know that, in times of utter hopelessness and despair, there aren't necessarily that many things we need to hear from someone else: that there is hope; that tough times don't last forever; that there are treatments available (in the case of depression, say); that we are loved and appreciated as a person; that we can know that someone is listening to, and can hear, our pain and our suffering; that there is still much beauty in this world though we cannot see it at the moment.
Despite all this, it's possible to do more harm than good (and I've had first-hand experience regarding this on this very forum) so it's crucial that interventions with a suicidal person not be sloppy and haphazard. This is why I offered the lists of suicide hotlines in a previous post; the people at the other end of these lines are trained as suicide prevention counsellors. Of course, fairly close friendships can develop--and have developed--online, including on this forum, and I should hope that a member who's suicidal feels he can reach out to another member to whom he feels close enough to have previously exchanged phone numbers.
In times of crisis, emotional needs are reduced to a minimum but that minimum is incredibly potent and disturbing. Not every potential helper can handle it well, not even a trained one. But the attempt to help must be made in one way or another. A person's life hangs in the balance. Here, I'm inclined to agree with Absaroka (and as I stated in my previous post); help would probably come in the form of someone notifying the authorities or qualified personel that someone is suicidal.
Second, and having said all this, here's a (non-comprehensive) list of what to look for in order to determine whether someone is potentially suicidal:
From the Mayo Clinic's website:
Risk factors for suicide
Regardless of what specifically motivates someone to attempt suicide or complete suicide, a number of medical, biological, psychological and social risk factors are often involved. Those factors can vary based on age, gender and ethnic group, and they can change over time.
Some factors consistently increase a person's risk of suicide and attempted suicide. The factors that put people at higher risk include:
-- A prior suicide attempt
-- Having a psychiatric disorder, such as depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or personality disorders
-- Alcohol or substance abuse
-- A family history of mental disorders or substance abuse
-- A family history of suicide
-- Family violence, including physical or sexual abuse
-- Firearms in the home
-- A significant medical illness, such as cancer or chronic pain
Potential warning signs of suicide
You may notice possible indications that a friend or loved one is thinking about suicide. Here are some typical warning signs:
-- Talking about suicide, including making such statements as "I'm going to kill myself," "I wish I were dead," or "I wish I hadn't been born"
-- Withdrawing from social contact and having an increased desire to be left alone
-- Wide mood swings, such as being emotionally high one day but deeply discouraged the next
-- Preoccupation with death and dying or violence
-- Changes in routine, including eating or sleeping patterns
-- Personality changes, such as becoming very outgoing after being shy
-- Risky or self-destructive behavior, such as drug use or unsafe driving
-- Giving away belongings or getting affairs in order
-- Saying goodbye to people as if they won't be seen again
Some people don't reveal any suicidal feelings or actions. And many who consider or attempt suicide do so when you think they should be feeling better — during what may seem like a recovery from depression, for instance. That's because they may finally be able to muster the emotional energy to take action on their feelings.
What to ask a suicidal person (from the San Francisco Suicide Prevention Crisis Line):
P.L.A.I.D. P.A.L.S.
Things to watch for when assessing potential risk...
Plan -- Do they have one?
Lethality -- Is it lethal? Can they die?
Availability -- Do they have the means to carry it out?
Illness -- Do they have a mental or physical illness?
Depression -- Chronic or specific incident(s)?
Previous attempts -- How many? How recent?
Alone -- Are they alone? Do they have a support system? Partner? Are they alone right now?
Loss -- Have they suffered a loss? Death, job, relationship, self esteem?
Substance Abuse (or use) -- Drugs, alcohol, medicine? Current, chronic?
Finally, on a more personal note:
Yes, I've been suicidal. It was constantly on my mind, up until my mid- to late 20's. For sure, in the deepest recesses of a bleak winter, the thought of putting a stop to all this nonsense I call "my life" occasionally surfaces. What saves me, again and again, is my ability to see the beauty in human beings. Or in a single snowflake.
Like Albert Camus, amongst others, I've sometimes thought of ending my life for philosophical reasons. The absurdity of existence is just a tad too much to bear, sometimes. Factor in alienation (and self-alienation) and you've got a good recipe for the intellectualization of pain and suffering and the finding of relief (and release) through "rational suicide." I much prefer Buddhism. But this is a far cry from wanting to kill yourself because you can no longer endure your emotional pain. The thing about pain is that it eventually goes away (or, at the very least, it ebbs and floods like the tides, giving you an occasional respite).
Yes, I've thought of killing myself. I suspect many people have. But, for the beauty of the world, I cannot do it. I would rather shore up the courage needed to embrace the world as it is, imperfect though it may be, than to end my own life. To dispel a myth, by the way: attempting suicide involves neither courage nor cowardice... it involves the desire for pain to stop, coupled with the highly emotionally charged belief that there's no other way to do this than by committing suicide. It's not death we look for when we try to kill ourselves, it's the cessation of suffering (and, yes, I know this from experience, too).
Gelinda,
Even though your thread may not have gone in a direction you were hoping for, I'm glad you brought the matter up. The discussion (and the links provided) may one day help someone in need.
Love,
CJ
Again, I'm chiming in because I think this is a crucial matter--especially given that members of our community are, statistics say, more likely to attempt committing suicide.
First, it's incredibly difficult to "say the right thing" to a suicidal person if you don't know that person very well (as is often the case in online friendships), not to mention the fact that doing so "remotely"--through forums or e-mails or even phone conversations--makes it that much harder. Not impossible, mind you. Just harder.
Now, I know that, in times of utter hopelessness and despair, there aren't necessarily that many things we need to hear from someone else: that there is hope; that tough times don't last forever; that there are treatments available (in the case of depression, say); that we are loved and appreciated as a person; that we can know that someone is listening to, and can hear, our pain and our suffering; that there is still much beauty in this world though we cannot see it at the moment.
Despite all this, it's possible to do more harm than good (and I've had first-hand experience regarding this on this very forum) so it's crucial that interventions with a suicidal person not be sloppy and haphazard. This is why I offered the lists of suicide hotlines in a previous post; the people at the other end of these lines are trained as suicide prevention counsellors. Of course, fairly close friendships can develop--and have developed--online, including on this forum, and I should hope that a member who's suicidal feels he can reach out to another member to whom he feels close enough to have previously exchanged phone numbers.
In times of crisis, emotional needs are reduced to a minimum but that minimum is incredibly potent and disturbing. Not every potential helper can handle it well, not even a trained one. But the attempt to help must be made in one way or another. A person's life hangs in the balance. Here, I'm inclined to agree with Absaroka (and as I stated in my previous post); help would probably come in the form of someone notifying the authorities or qualified personel that someone is suicidal.
Second, and having said all this, here's a (non-comprehensive) list of what to look for in order to determine whether someone is potentially suicidal:
From the Mayo Clinic's website:
Risk factors for suicide
Regardless of what specifically motivates someone to attempt suicide or complete suicide, a number of medical, biological, psychological and social risk factors are often involved. Those factors can vary based on age, gender and ethnic group, and they can change over time.
Some factors consistently increase a person's risk of suicide and attempted suicide. The factors that put people at higher risk include:
-- A prior suicide attempt
-- Having a psychiatric disorder, such as depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or personality disorders
-- Alcohol or substance abuse
-- A family history of mental disorders or substance abuse
-- A family history of suicide
-- Family violence, including physical or sexual abuse
-- Firearms in the home
-- A significant medical illness, such as cancer or chronic pain
Potential warning signs of suicide
You may notice possible indications that a friend or loved one is thinking about suicide. Here are some typical warning signs:
-- Talking about suicide, including making such statements as "I'm going to kill myself," "I wish I were dead," or "I wish I hadn't been born"
-- Withdrawing from social contact and having an increased desire to be left alone
-- Wide mood swings, such as being emotionally high one day but deeply discouraged the next
-- Preoccupation with death and dying or violence
-- Changes in routine, including eating or sleeping patterns
-- Personality changes, such as becoming very outgoing after being shy
-- Risky or self-destructive behavior, such as drug use or unsafe driving
-- Giving away belongings or getting affairs in order
-- Saying goodbye to people as if they won't be seen again
Some people don't reveal any suicidal feelings or actions. And many who consider or attempt suicide do so when you think they should be feeling better — during what may seem like a recovery from depression, for instance. That's because they may finally be able to muster the emotional energy to take action on their feelings.
What to ask a suicidal person (from the San Francisco Suicide Prevention Crisis Line):
P.L.A.I.D. P.A.L.S.
Things to watch for when assessing potential risk...
Plan -- Do they have one?
Lethality -- Is it lethal? Can they die?
Availability -- Do they have the means to carry it out?
Illness -- Do they have a mental or physical illness?
Depression -- Chronic or specific incident(s)?
Previous attempts -- How many? How recent?
Alone -- Are they alone? Do they have a support system? Partner? Are they alone right now?
Loss -- Have they suffered a loss? Death, job, relationship, self esteem?
Substance Abuse (or use) -- Drugs, alcohol, medicine? Current, chronic?
Finally, on a more personal note:
Yes, I've been suicidal. It was constantly on my mind, up until my mid- to late 20's. For sure, in the deepest recesses of a bleak winter, the thought of putting a stop to all this nonsense I call "my life" occasionally surfaces. What saves me, again and again, is my ability to see the beauty in human beings. Or in a single snowflake.
Like Albert Camus, amongst others, I've sometimes thought of ending my life for philosophical reasons. The absurdity of existence is just a tad too much to bear, sometimes. Factor in alienation (and self-alienation) and you've got a good recipe for the intellectualization of pain and suffering and the finding of relief (and release) through "rational suicide." I much prefer Buddhism. But this is a far cry from wanting to kill yourself because you can no longer endure your emotional pain. The thing about pain is that it eventually goes away (or, at the very least, it ebbs and floods like the tides, giving you an occasional respite).
Yes, I've thought of killing myself. I suspect many people have. But, for the beauty of the world, I cannot do it. I would rather shore up the courage needed to embrace the world as it is, imperfect though it may be, than to end my own life. To dispel a myth, by the way: attempting suicide involves neither courage nor cowardice... it involves the desire for pain to stop, coupled with the highly emotionally charged belief that there's no other way to do this than by committing suicide. It's not death we look for when we try to kill ourselves, it's the cessation of suffering (and, yes, I know this from experience, too).
Gelinda,
Even though your thread may not have gone in a direction you were hoping for, I'm glad you brought the matter up. The discussion (and the links provided) may one day help someone in need.
Love,
CJ
-
Aeryn
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:48 pm
I think Elizabeth and other have summed up the major issues with this idea.
1) anonymity of all involved. I come here to be anonymous. I don't want anyone knowing who I really am. I don't want you having my phone number, my address- nothing. I think most people here are like that.
2) potential legal issues. I am sure these vary, but a good lawyer would rip you apart for saying, "in case of emergency, contact web forum administrator for non-professional counseling."
I worked crisis intervention in an emergency room and manned the suicide line. To be honest, I am not sure calling a forum admin is the best route for someone feeling suicidal. Yes, having someone to talk to can be nice, but when someone is seriously considering ending their life, you need a professional. Hell, there were times I felt like I was winging it and I am a professional.
Know the crisis line number in your area. Know how to access professionals. Know how to give information quickly and concisely to emergency personnel.
Oh, and yes, I have been there. After my first wife passed away. I had means and I had a plan. I almost called the hotline. Two things stopped me. 1) My own training began running through my head and my inner voice started spouting all the stuff I did when working with others and 2) I knew everyone who worked the hotline and being anonymous would have been very difficult.
1) anonymity of all involved. I come here to be anonymous. I don't want anyone knowing who I really am. I don't want you having my phone number, my address- nothing. I think most people here are like that.
2) potential legal issues. I am sure these vary, but a good lawyer would rip you apart for saying, "in case of emergency, contact web forum administrator for non-professional counseling."
I worked crisis intervention in an emergency room and manned the suicide line. To be honest, I am not sure calling a forum admin is the best route for someone feeling suicidal. Yes, having someone to talk to can be nice, but when someone is seriously considering ending their life, you need a professional. Hell, there were times I felt like I was winging it and I am a professional.
Know the crisis line number in your area. Know how to access professionals. Know how to give information quickly and concisely to emergency personnel.
Oh, and yes, I have been there. After my first wife passed away. I had means and I had a plan. I almost called the hotline. Two things stopped me. 1) My own training began running through my head and my inner voice started spouting all the stuff I did when working with others and 2) I knew everyone who worked the hotline and being anonymous would have been very difficult.