Anita, I'm glad you posted it. I don't think it's off-topic at all. I never thought of it in terms of the extra energy that Erin takes, but I'd have to admit that it is substantial. There have been times when I have been very aware of my "Erin-ness", particularly when underdressed at work (which I was starting to do on a fairly regular basis when all this started to break).
That said, I think it would probably be more accurate to say that more than energy, it's about my approach to things. I just sense that this isn't a time for Erin's approach. Erin isn't cunning at all, and I need that, now. She tends to be trusting of others, and I can't be. I keep coming back to the "going to war" analogy, and Erin can't be any part of that. If she were, my approaches would become muddled.
I have promised myself one thing, though. I am looking for another job now, and when I find one (whether I get fired or not), I intend to leave myself a couple of weeks to decompress before starting anew. And that will allow me to give Erin free reign.
the grass on the other side of the fence is dead.
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
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Robyn Katie
- Miss Platinum Goddess
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:02 pm
Hi sisters,
I've come back to the thread after a couple of days and OMG, so much to think about. You are saying things that really strike home. Thank you for the kind compliments ... I feel I'm struggling to express stuff I can barely put into words.
(Georgia, I've saved yours to answer in a separate message below.)
First Erin, I yearn for the threats to your livelihood (and thus life, hopes, pleasures) to be over and done with, and a return of security for you. I'm glad you're looking ... it sounds like the right thing. I know all our hearts are with you every step of the way.
I agree, Erin and Anita, that energy is required in both cases: a man's suppression of femininity, and his expression of femininity. And a threatening situation brings on a shift in personality toward an extreme we may well regard as male -- historically males have been the soldiers, defenders, destroyers, women the caregivers etc, and despite attempts to break the cliche there may be some genetic truth to that.
Gender = destiny? We feminists have denied it. It may surface, though, in emergencies. When it's wartime, as you say, Erin, we go into tunnel vision mode, self-protective (the armadillo), driven by calculation, prudence, alertness. Freedom, delight, generosity all are scaled back (we saw it during the Bush administration) in favor of aggressiveness and use of fear to create strength. Any luxuries get flushed. The being reverts to backbrain fight/flight etc. reactions.
I gather this is true for GGs as well under extreme threat and stress. They too can become enraged killers if they are driven to it -- cornered rats, fighting and fleeing. They will pick up the baby as they go, they may throw themselves in front of a bullet. But they may also kill, maim, etc. if necessary to defend themselves and their children.
For TGs direct threat, despair and danger mean we shuck the decorations and the female role -- just as we would drop out of school if our community were invaded. The basic needs take precedence, and those are not gender-based needs. This would be true for a GG too -- you won't find her in an evening gown in a survival situation.
Seems, then, that either gender's expression of the "feminine qualities" (sorry for the cliche) depend on a certain amount of safety, comfort, breathing room, leisure for creativity, learning, and expression of joy.
As you say, Anita, when the role becomes routine (and no immediate threat is sensed), dreariness can set in. That can be especially difficult when it's the role you've chosen to save your life as the person you've newly become.
"Erin isn't cunning at all." Robyn feels the same. She's open, guileless, sweet, risk-taking, generous, impulsive. (She can also be crabby and tasteless at times, fair warning ... but generally she's a flower child. She might put a flower in your gun barrel, but she's a creampuff in a fight.) Robyn would go numb if overrun by troops, though she would cry afterward, if she survived. Not so different from many GGs in war zones.
Shows how true it is that we M's and F's as human beings overlap more than we differ. We share most of our basic instinctual equipment as well as pretty much all of our "higher intelligence," as they so piquantly call it.
Sorry, didn't mean to run on so long. But you're all teaching me a lot, and clarifying things that have been a blur. Please know I'm grateful!
Love, Robyn Katie
I've come back to the thread after a couple of days and OMG, so much to think about. You are saying things that really strike home. Thank you for the kind compliments ... I feel I'm struggling to express stuff I can barely put into words.
(Georgia, I've saved yours to answer in a separate message below.)
First Erin, I yearn for the threats to your livelihood (and thus life, hopes, pleasures) to be over and done with, and a return of security for you. I'm glad you're looking ... it sounds like the right thing. I know all our hearts are with you every step of the way.
I agree, Erin and Anita, that energy is required in both cases: a man's suppression of femininity, and his expression of femininity. And a threatening situation brings on a shift in personality toward an extreme we may well regard as male -- historically males have been the soldiers, defenders, destroyers, women the caregivers etc, and despite attempts to break the cliche there may be some genetic truth to that.
Gender = destiny? We feminists have denied it. It may surface, though, in emergencies. When it's wartime, as you say, Erin, we go into tunnel vision mode, self-protective (the armadillo), driven by calculation, prudence, alertness. Freedom, delight, generosity all are scaled back (we saw it during the Bush administration) in favor of aggressiveness and use of fear to create strength. Any luxuries get flushed. The being reverts to backbrain fight/flight etc. reactions.
I gather this is true for GGs as well under extreme threat and stress. They too can become enraged killers if they are driven to it -- cornered rats, fighting and fleeing. They will pick up the baby as they go, they may throw themselves in front of a bullet. But they may also kill, maim, etc. if necessary to defend themselves and their children.
For TGs direct threat, despair and danger mean we shuck the decorations and the female role -- just as we would drop out of school if our community were invaded. The basic needs take precedence, and those are not gender-based needs. This would be true for a GG too -- you won't find her in an evening gown in a survival situation.
Seems, then, that either gender's expression of the "feminine qualities" (sorry for the cliche) depend on a certain amount of safety, comfort, breathing room, leisure for creativity, learning, and expression of joy.
As you say, Anita, when the role becomes routine (and no immediate threat is sensed), dreariness can set in. That can be especially difficult when it's the role you've chosen to save your life as the person you've newly become.
"Erin isn't cunning at all." Robyn feels the same. She's open, guileless, sweet, risk-taking, generous, impulsive. (She can also be crabby and tasteless at times, fair warning ... but generally she's a flower child. She might put a flower in your gun barrel, but she's a creampuff in a fight.) Robyn would go numb if overrun by troops, though she would cry afterward, if she survived. Not so different from many GGs in war zones.
Shows how true it is that we M's and F's as human beings overlap more than we differ. We share most of our basic instinctual equipment as well as pretty much all of our "higher intelligence," as they so piquantly call it.
Sorry, didn't mean to run on so long. But you're all teaching me a lot, and clarifying things that have been a blur. Please know I'm grateful!
Love, Robyn Katie
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Robyn Katie
- Miss Platinum Goddess
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:02 pm
Hi Georgia,
"Is there a difference between feeling like a man and feeling like a male person?"
" ... when I'm not feeling at all woman-ish - just like a non-descript person who has girl parts. .... Sorta feels dead".
Great question and great statement. (We've all felt it!!) Not sure I have any very good answer. Thoughts:
There's a lot of life experience that is just *not* gender-determined and may not even be gender-tinged.
This could be especially true for the blahs. These happen when we're not enlivened, not inspired, not dazzled ... just going through the motions and getting the job done without much emotional engagement.
For me, sexuality is the key to life's boundless joys and soaring flights. So for me the blahs (or let's just say those of life's passages not strongly marked by emotion or energy) have a lot to do with the absence of not just sexual engagement, but romantic vision as well.
I've been lucky that my SO Alee and I are both romantic in temperament and know we each need lots of courting behavior, teasing, sensuality, etc., and since it's more fun that way, we do our darnedest to keep each other well supplied with those kinds of love and happiness.
But of course sometimes that fails, as it's bound to. And though we each have other passions, hobbies, interests, etc., we feel the blahs pretty hard. Especially if they're sensually null. Then we do indeed feel like nondescript persons whose maleness or femaleness is incidental.
But that's just us. Others may have different sorts of blahs. Actually so do we. As in paying bills, for instance, or just about any other chores or errands. We may feel gendered in a brief contact with a salesperson, but generally it's just a human getting necessary and tedious stuff done.
Is that what you meant? "Sorta feels dead," yes indeed. And it takes energy to get out of that slough of despond too, and sometimes the energy just isn't there.
So, again,I think an awful lot of life just isn't gender-marked. Not only is gender not destiny, it's often irrelevant to daily living.
Unless of course we put it at the forefront -- as TGs are wont to do!
But overcoming the "dead" feeling, for me, has a lot to do with restoring sensuality, which of course also brings gender to the forefront.
This implies that the well-known turn to gender bending around male middle age may have a lot to do with the need to restore the kind of sexual excitement, desperation, adventuring, etc., that came so easily as a teen and after, but comes so hard in middle age and after.
Whew, what am I saying -- that male TGing (female TGing does seem to be a separate case in this respect) could be in some cases a form of middle aged crisis? Or an expression of it?
Scary thought. Very possibly wrong, too.
I'm not sure I've answered you very aptly, but I hope I haven't completely missed the target. (Gee, target-shooting, how male of me. Maybe I should have said "missed the boat.")
Love, Robyn Katie
"Is there a difference between feeling like a man and feeling like a male person?"
" ... when I'm not feeling at all woman-ish - just like a non-descript person who has girl parts. .... Sorta feels dead".
Great question and great statement. (We've all felt it!!) Not sure I have any very good answer. Thoughts:
There's a lot of life experience that is just *not* gender-determined and may not even be gender-tinged.
This could be especially true for the blahs. These happen when we're not enlivened, not inspired, not dazzled ... just going through the motions and getting the job done without much emotional engagement.
For me, sexuality is the key to life's boundless joys and soaring flights. So for me the blahs (or let's just say those of life's passages not strongly marked by emotion or energy) have a lot to do with the absence of not just sexual engagement, but romantic vision as well.
I've been lucky that my SO Alee and I are both romantic in temperament and know we each need lots of courting behavior, teasing, sensuality, etc., and since it's more fun that way, we do our darnedest to keep each other well supplied with those kinds of love and happiness.
But of course sometimes that fails, as it's bound to. And though we each have other passions, hobbies, interests, etc., we feel the blahs pretty hard. Especially if they're sensually null. Then we do indeed feel like nondescript persons whose maleness or femaleness is incidental.
But that's just us. Others may have different sorts of blahs. Actually so do we. As in paying bills, for instance, or just about any other chores or errands. We may feel gendered in a brief contact with a salesperson, but generally it's just a human getting necessary and tedious stuff done.
Is that what you meant? "Sorta feels dead," yes indeed. And it takes energy to get out of that slough of despond too, and sometimes the energy just isn't there.
So, again,I think an awful lot of life just isn't gender-marked. Not only is gender not destiny, it's often irrelevant to daily living.
Unless of course we put it at the forefront -- as TGs are wont to do!
But overcoming the "dead" feeling, for me, has a lot to do with restoring sensuality, which of course also brings gender to the forefront.
This implies that the well-known turn to gender bending around male middle age may have a lot to do with the need to restore the kind of sexual excitement, desperation, adventuring, etc., that came so easily as a teen and after, but comes so hard in middle age and after.
Whew, what am I saying -- that male TGing (female TGing does seem to be a separate case in this respect) could be in some cases a form of middle aged crisis? Or an expression of it?
Scary thought. Very possibly wrong, too.
I'm not sure I've answered you very aptly, but I hope I haven't completely missed the target. (Gee, target-shooting, how male of me. Maybe I should have said "missed the boat.")
Love, Robyn Katie
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Erin L
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:38 am
- Location: Queens, NY
The trials never seem to stop. My wife and I were supposed to be on a cruise this week, but we canceled, both because of my precarious job situation and because my father-in-law will shortly be having hernia surgery, and we felt it would be bad form if we were at sea and it strangulated. But we had him and our daughter over for Easter brunch, and he was a trial and she was a trial. When we brought her home late in the day, she had the worst acting out episode since her middle teen years (including running into her residence's back yard and throwing lawn chairs hither and yon).
Monday was spent with trying to work out a behavior plan with the manager of her residence, followed by a teary apology by my daughter. She ultimately came back to our house, we ordered out some pizza, and all was finally forgiven, with all of us a little the worse for wear. After we took her back home, my wife and I sat up late and had a long talk, in which she assured me that God had abandoned us all and I tried not to admit that it sometimes seemed as if He had.
Today was endless phone calls as I continued to work my network of professional acquaintances trying to find some opportunity in a job market that seems to have forgotten how it's spelled. My wife went to the doctor this afternoon and her blood pressure numbers were dangerously high (unheard of for her), and we all agreed that the stress is taking its toll.
Then, when I went out to run some errands by myself, I came out of a store and realized my car had endured its second flat tire in four days (I still haven't replaced the spare from Saturday's metal shard). Erin emerged in full force, as I sat in the car and cried. I just can't take any more of this.
Monday was spent with trying to work out a behavior plan with the manager of her residence, followed by a teary apology by my daughter. She ultimately came back to our house, we ordered out some pizza, and all was finally forgiven, with all of us a little the worse for wear. After we took her back home, my wife and I sat up late and had a long talk, in which she assured me that God had abandoned us all and I tried not to admit that it sometimes seemed as if He had.
Today was endless phone calls as I continued to work my network of professional acquaintances trying to find some opportunity in a job market that seems to have forgotten how it's spelled. My wife went to the doctor this afternoon and her blood pressure numbers were dangerously high (unheard of for her), and we all agreed that the stress is taking its toll.
Then, when I went out to run some errands by myself, I came out of a store and realized my car had endured its second flat tire in four days (I still haven't replaced the spare from Saturday's metal shard). Erin emerged in full force, as I sat in the car and cried. I just can't take any more of this.
I'm not that kind of girl.
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Robyn Katie
- Miss Platinum Goddess
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:02 pm
Oh. Erin.
Try to keep in mind it isn't you, you're not alone, there is good in the past and lots more good in the near future for you.
You're having an incredible run of bad fortune just now. Try to get outside it. Try to rest, take long, slow, deep breaths (surprisingly helpful), find space for yourself to level off.
This is tough. but hang in. Everything you always knew was worthwhile is still worthwhile ... and waiting for you to see it again when you can.
Life will go on, and you will be a good, strong part of it. Remember we all love you and have you in our hearts every step of the way.
Love, Robyn Katie
Try to keep in mind it isn't you, you're not alone, there is good in the past and lots more good in the near future for you.
You're having an incredible run of bad fortune just now. Try to get outside it. Try to rest, take long, slow, deep breaths (surprisingly helpful), find space for yourself to level off.
This is tough. but hang in. Everything you always knew was worthwhile is still worthwhile ... and waiting for you to see it again when you can.
Life will go on, and you will be a good, strong part of it. Remember we all love you and have you in our hearts every step of the way.
Love, Robyn Katie
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Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3344
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
Georgia one small correction. It wasn't men saying they would take cash to be a woman. It was guys being told they had no choice in the matter and being asked what they should be compensated for this trauma. Like how much do you sue the person who rear ends you. Men put a monetary figure on it. Women said no amount would be enough. Like how much do you sue the person who kills your entire family.
Fun to see the directions this thread is taking.
Absaroka
Fun to see the directions this thread is taking.
Absaroka
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
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Erin L
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:38 am
- Location: Queens, NY
Thank you, Robyn. The world is a little better today, and you're right - the long, slow deep breaths do seem to help.
I decided to put the job search activities on hold for the day. A day won't make any difference in it, and it might make a difference for me. My wife and I went out to lunch, and then spent an hour or so at a local B&N. Browsing bookstores is always therapeutic for me.
Love,
Erin
I decided to put the job search activities on hold for the day. A day won't make any difference in it, and it might make a difference for me. My wife and I went out to lunch, and then spent an hour or so at a local B&N. Browsing bookstores is always therapeutic for me.
Love,
Erin
I'm not that kind of girl.
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Anita
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3068
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:55 pm
- Location: Burlingame, CA (San Francisco Bay area)
Hi Erin--
That is probably a good decision to take a day off. You're preparing for a big step, but for now, you do still have a job. Bookstores are wonderful places, and I stopped in at a local one yesterday; first time in a long time for going into any bookstore.
I'm glad you got a next-day response to your other post.
That is probably a good decision to take a day off. You're preparing for a big step, but for now, you do still have a job. Bookstores are wonderful places, and I stopped in at a local one yesterday; first time in a long time for going into any bookstore.
I'm glad you got a next-day response to your other post.
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Erin L
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:38 am
- Location: Queens, NY
Thanks, Anita. I do still have a job, but I am in a precarious position and that could change at almost any moment. I have a particular disadvantage of knowing more than does my insecure-bordering-on-paranoid boss.
Still, if they fire me, then they do. As my wife points out, that would at least have the advantage of allowing me to look for work on a full time basis.
Hugs,
Erin
Still, if they fire me, then they do. As my wife points out, that would at least have the advantage of allowing me to look for work on a full time basis.
Hugs,
Erin
I'm not that kind of girl.