Oh no! It's that pronoun again...

How are you dealing with or handling this aspect of your life?

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Anita
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Oh no! It's that pronoun again...

Post by Anita »

I was doing my Christmas shopping last Friday, and I was dressed. I'd just gotten my first femme hairdo earlier that day, and I felt great.

I was at Bayfair mall, which is about ten miles from me. I hadn't been there enfemme before, and it was a mixed bag. I'd get read for 10 minutes, then I'd blend for 10, then I'd get read again. It was still a good night, though. Who knows? Maybe everyone was just admiring my hairstyle :mrgreen:

Anyway--I was looking for a woman's holiday sweater, and Macy's had none that I wanted. So I wandered into Target, and couldn't find any at all. I went to the fitting room, and asked the woman who was monitoring the rooms. I specifically said I wanted a woman's sweater.

She smiled and said she'd call to see if there were any left. As she's waiting for the phone to ring, another clerk asks what she's doing.
"He wants to know about holiday sweaters, " she says.

Maybe she sees my face when she says this, because when she gets someone on the line, she says, "I have a guest here who's looking for holiday sweaters." That could be standard Target customer-relations talk, but at any rate, she made the switch to something neutral.

I never like to put people into a tight corner about what pronoun they're supposed to use. That's one reason I don't care to dress androgynously.
I too like to know what pronoun someone expects me to use, and I'm used to transgender people around me all the time. If I feel that way, I can only imagine what the clerk at Target might feel.

Still, I wish she would have played along with my act! I was full-femme, and I had all the cues going for me, especially since my hair was set in a woman-only wave. Some people that have an attitude about our dressing, will deliberately say "sir" to indicate that they're not fooled, no way. But I didn't sense that with her.

I don't see getting a "she" as meaning I've fooled someone. It's just that if I've got the visuals right, most people will react to what they see, and I get it automatically. I wasn't so upset with her personally--after all, she did make the situation better--but I wondered why she said that in the first place!?

It was part about the new hairdo that really got me. Here I've put a new piece into the puzzle, and I'm passing worse than before? Made me a little crazy.

I ended up thinking that even if we DO come up with a gender-neutral pronoun, it will still not be polite to use it! No one wants to hear the clerk say, "Zie wants a holiday sweater," even if that became the "accepted" way to say "he/she." None of us may like being just one gender all the time, but we don't want to become an "it," either.

So people are going to continue to have to make snap judgments about what pronoun the person in front of them wants to hear. Maybe there will be so many of us out there in the next ten years that it will become common knowledge! I can see it in Dear Abby: "When you meet a crossdresser in a public place, most people refer to her as "she." Yay!

OK, a small rant there. Anita will get down off "her" soapbox now.
Last edited by Anita on Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Elizabeth
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Post by Elizabeth »

Anita,

I find myself in this situation all the time. I mean, not just others not knowing what to call me, but even myself not knowing what to call me. On forms am I male or female? And people are clearly uncomfortable calling me "she".

I am not sure what the solution to this problem is. I was thinking to myself tonight how nice it would be if a person could legally change thier gender, regardless of having SRS. My life would be much easier, since I am full time, if I could just change my gender. I mean, If I am living as a female, why not?

Love always,
Elizabeth
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Post by Beauty »

Hi Anita,

First of all. Good for you! :) =D> :) I think it's fabulous that you are expressing yourself and getting out. Oh and also the fact that you are sharing your experience here with us. :)

I just thought I'd note that I've heard stories of TS's (after SRS or FFS) being referred to as sir, he or him while still in the care of the doctors and nurses. These places are the most sensitive to TG things like that and even they slip up. These women are pretty offended when that happens. I think your post sheds some more light on what it's like for even us non-TS folks.

I also totally agree with what you said about if we came up with a PC pronoun. We can't even make one up. :)

You handled yourself very well when she referred to you in the gender you weren't dressed as. You're totally classy and her changing her wording shows it. :)

This kind of thread is worth it's weight in gold. :)
(--)
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Post by DonnaT »

I can only add that, once she helped you and you thanked her, you could add a comment like: "Please, we don't mind, and prefer, being referred to a 'she', if it would make you feel more comfortable around us." Or something to that effect.

Educate the public one person at a time.
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Post by Terri(SO) »

I think it would be great to have a gender non-specific pronoun too. It would really take alot of retraining for most of us to use it but would be worth a try. A life time of learning a language is difficult to overcome.

I can tell you, I'm pretty sure that Target clerk was embarrassed at the thought of having offended you. One of my first experiences with a transgendered person was similar but the person was not as understanding as you. I was working a reception desk and a person walked up. Now this person was not obviously en femme as you describe yourself. She was dressed androgynously, man's style but longer hair, man's voice. But when I referred to her, as him, she went off. "How dare you call me a him! I am a transgendered person and you WILL refer to me as HER!!" Demanded an official apology from the director because mine was not good enough. Well, I was mortified! Even now, after so many years I remember it very clearly. I felt like How am I supposed to know what gender this person feels inside? As they say, if it looks like a duck and walks like duck and quacks like a duck?

But it shook me up pretty badly and made me always try harder to know who I was really talking to. It still remains difficult sometimes.
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Post by Merinda »

I have never been spoken to by a member of the public when dressed but if I were I would prefer to be called " Miss " .

I hate being called " sir " at anytime.
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Anita
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Post by Anita »

Thanks for the replies!

Terri, your post made me go "ouch," and I'm replying to it first. I still have this situation when I'm running our local TG group, too. Person comes in, and I have to figure out where he or she is coming from, and where he/she is going to, so to speak! And I make mistakes--if they don't help me out, I'm bound to. They don't fly into a rage, but they're upset. So I know how you felt on that long-ago day.

Elizabeth, I think in California you may be able to legally change your gender without surgery. But it still won't help you in the day-to-day dealings with the clerk at the hardware store. My mother always used the quote, "This too, shall pass..." (not sure where it's from), and I know that in some way, you'll be able to get past this awkwardness and move on. You're still somewhat new at full-time. My TS friends say that as they continue going out, they start believing in themselves more, and that comes across.

Beauty, these little mishaps make me think hard about how it must be to be out there fulltime, where you're doing your best to blend in. I have my "other life" to go back to, where everything's comfortable and there's no confusion. Fortunately, both of my closest TS friends blend in well, and there's seldom any problems in either of their lives. Their biggest headaches probably come when they're out with me, as a matter of fact!

Donna, your suggestion is a good one, and I will keep it in mind. My sense of humor is better enfemme anyway, and if I can keep it "light," I'll definitely let the people know. If I feel like scolding them, I'll probably just keep it to myself! We'll see.
A
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Sally
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Oh no, It's that pronoun again

Post by Sally »

Hi Anita,

I know there are people about who through their dislike of us deliberately go out of their way to make life more difficult for us, but I find that the majority of the public are just plain ignorant about us and the likes and dislikes we have of how we are addressed, it's just a simple matter of lack of education.

Having said that I know the use of preferred and non preferred pronouns at times causes embarrassment on both sides and can cause ' explosions' at times, especially amongst ourselves. I recall years ago just after I'd been admitted into a large group of pre-op and post op TS's, I inadvertently used the wrong pronoun in referring to a particular person, who, at the time I wasn't aware was a very vocal uptight, outspoken person who was not handling her situation very well, and all hell broke loose. I felt as if I had been hauled up before a judge and jury who were deciding a fate worse than death for me, but due to many people being there aware of my infant status in the TS world I was 'let off' with a severe reprimand.

That is just one example of how serious some people take the misuse of pronouns, especially amongst our own, but personally I've never seen the need to take it as far as some people do, because in most cases it comes about because of pure ignorance of the fact and I've found it usually causes ambarrassment more to the user than the supposed injured party.

I haven't had any indications that I've been 'read' for a long time now, but when it used to happen, it became a habit in such a situation as yours I used to nicely point out to the other person that for my general safety and well being, plus not to cause general embarrassment all round, I preferred to be addressed as a female and I found in the main it worked well. If people are not aware of our situation or what we may need or be trying to achieve, then they may well feel very uncomfortable trying to find the right words. I found that in most cases they appreciated help with the situation and it smoothed the waters for future occaisons. Jumping up and down and abusing people as some do never achieves anything and it says more about that person than it does about the other. Trying to find a gender non specific pronoun at this stage, to me, would only add more confusion to the mix, people have a difficult enough time now coming to terms with things as they are, but in time it may well turn out to be useful.

Terri, I think the way that person reacted to you and the performance she put on says more about her than it did about you, but I think you know that is more the exception than the rule, or I certainly would hope it was. Civility and good manners costs nothing, but the absence of them can eventually be quite costly emotionally and personally, to a person such as the one who abused you.

I guess in this nation we are somewhat more fortunate than many others, because no matter how we present externally we are protected by anti-discrimination laws in the work place and in general society. A person can present externally as a male but request that he/she be addressed and referred to as female, we can perceive whatever gender identity we wish no matter how we dress and it's an offence for people to discriminate against us in any way in reference to our chosen gender identity. That's not to say discrimination still doesn't occur, it can be more discriminative when people have to work side by side all day giving someone the silent treatment, than it is by verbal abuse or innuendo, but the wheels are slowly turning in our favour. We've come a long way world wide in the last 20 years. I know and appreciate peoples situations and the fact they cannot get 'out there' and help educate the masses, but Anita, people like yourself are the front liners who are helping to make the path easier for those coming behind us and if we can just educate one person to the facts that we are no threat and just wish to be able to go about our lives peacefully, where ever we fit into the gender mix, then we have achieved a milestone, I think you'd agree we've both come a long, long way in the last 4 years, it hasn't all been 'roses and chocolates' I know, but I think you'd agree it's been worth it all.

Kind Regards,

Sally.
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Anita
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Post by Anita »

Hi Merinda--
I certainly don't mind "sir" if I'm being a guy, although it bothered me when I was younger. I didn't want to grow up, and "sir" seemed to be taking me there!

But if you or I are out dressed, I don't think it's too much to expect the female pronouns. Most people will use them without much hassle.

Sally, I do want to come up with lighter ways of letting people know, as I told Donna. But you know, when I think about it as a businessman, I really rely on pronouns even to ask people about pronouns! I have to really think NOT to use them.

The transgender community is very sensitive about this whole thing, aren't they? I was with a young United Genders member, and "she" was upset because the other facilitators-in-training were reading her as a guy all day long. So was I, and I told her what cues were leading me to do that. The name "Alex" can be either sex, and the visuals were all guy. They weren't even that androgynous, for me. She took it gracefully, but I'm sure she was upset that her message wasn't coming across. Who wouldn't be? Yet United Genders is all about not wanting to be identified with any gender, or identified as new genders beyond the two existing. So this girl was caught out in the middle of the stream, but that's where she wanted to be, also.

And there was a member of our support group who was angry at his friends for not recognizing that he was really a girl. After he talked about this, some members gently began saying that they couldn't see the "girl," either--his voice and appearance were male, and he was still using a guy name to introduce himself to us. At times like these, pronouns are just the tip of the iceberg.
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Post by Merinda »

Anita wrote:Hi Merinda--
I certainly don't mind "sir" if I'm being a guy, although it bothered me when I was younger. I didn't want to grow up, and "sir" seemed to be taking me there!
Anita , you've just read me like a book
Merinda
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Post by Elizabeth »

Anita,

I think your post is right on the mark. While I do dress 24/7 as a female, I also send a lot of "male" cues out. I talk in a male voice that is very low pitched, I don't wear breastforms, or a wig. However, I also am not sensitive about being called "him" or "sir". It's nice to be called "her" or "she" or "maim", but I consider it a bonus when it happens.

I do not dress for society's benifit, I do it for my own benifit and I don't particularly care if society accepts it or not. But having taken this stand, I also can not expect society to act in my benifit either.

So for me, I don't heed societies expectations, nor to do I place expectations on it. And that seems pretty fair to me.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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