Hi girls,
I have wanted to talk about this for a while, but was not really sure how to approach it until the concept of Alice in Wonderland came to mind.
You see, I am now in Wonderland. And it is not a surprise how many people do not even know it exists. "Wonderland" and "Society" seem to me to be two places on the opposite sides of the mirror. Both mutally exclusive and non-inclusive of the other, yet both exist only in our minds.
On one hand we have "Society", the maker of rules which we are all to live by regardless of whether they are written or unwritten rules. But society at large is not everyone out there getting together to make up rules that we all must follow. Really it's just in our head. We imagine this society judging us as a whole, but really it is just a bunch of individual people like me and you, all worried they are being judged. And everyone is indoctrinated from birth to hold everyone else acountable, giving this illusion in our mind that society is an entity. But really it only exists in our mind.
On the other hand we have "Wonderland". In wonderland the rules of society do not apply, much like the real world rules of life and indeed phyics do not apply in the story book wonderland. In wonderland we do not seek the approval of others nor do we ask others to meet our expectations. In fact, the one thing that wonderland has going for it is that the unexpected not only can happen, it happens on a regular basis.
I remember many times looking in the mirror wondering if wonderland really was on the other side of that mirror. If there was a place where Elizabeth could live in harmony with her surroundings. A place where the the ordinarly became unordinary. A place where a man in a dress could live as herself without being judged on a flawed set of made up societal and religious rules prohibiting my existance.
It was not until I realized that society and wonderland only exist in our minds that I found my way through the looking glass. And now that I am on the other side, wonderland, I can no longer see society. In fact it is as much of a joke to me, as wonderland is for those still on the other side.
Once I found out that society could only judge me if I acknowledged and accepted that judgement, all I had to do was not accept it. I walk everywhere I go with pride and purpose, if someone stares at me, I don't look away. I stare back until they look away. In wonderland, it is "looky-loos" that seem odd, not crossdressed men.
So now I am at a point where I don't really notice society. Sometimes Raven will notice others staring at me, but I never notice anymore and even she admits that her intergration into wonderland makes her notice less and less, and she also stops caring about the judgements of society, as they have no real meaning to us.
I remember all the years in the closet and wondering how those who were out of the closet made it to this place where they were not only happy with themselves, but totally not caring about what others thought of them. I clearly remember seeing other crossdressers or transexuals who were out and thinking, how can they just "X" themeselves out of society? Don't they know society will never accept them?
The answer is, in my opinion, that it is an enlightenment. An enlightenment that everyone is not capable of having. There will always be those who value what society thinks of them so much that they will never live for themselves. Most don't know that wonderland even exists. I know I didn't. But having shrugged off the judgements of society and finding out that nothing bad happens, I mean, you don't die.
And yes, I know there are consequences leaving society's judgements. You could lose your job, is probably the biggest concern.b But even in wonderland there are jobs, loving accepting SO's, friends and family.
And as I sit here looking back through the looking glass, I hope that I am never compelled to climb back through to a place where I accept the judgement of others based on thier beliefs, instead of my own.
I am enthusiatically waiting to hear what my sisters here have to say on this issue.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Crossdresser In Wonderland
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
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Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1878
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 3:02 am
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Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
Well, Elizabeth haven't we become quite the philosopher??!!! And might I add a very enlightened one at that! I love reading what you propose and I think you are right, but you probably knew that considering the source 
One of my feelings has always been that the only person you have to impress is the one that signs your paycheck,..............you kinda shot some holes in that for me tonight, that in Wonderland there are also jobs available from and for other caring loving people. I guess this is where the student becomes the teacher and now you are making me cry as I see the continuing growth that you are achieving - GOD I am so proud of you!!!!!!!! Damn, now my make-up is running!! Your "Magical Mystery
Tour" has taken you to dare I day Narvanna! = Wonderland!" What you need to do now is reach you hand back and help those of us who are still searching for that treasured land! You have a least given me a map and told me what to look for, now all I have to do is muster the gonads to "step out in faith." That step I have to take on my own, no pushing or pulling will ever make me take it. It is totally up to Virginia! I can see you on that "other side" beconning me and I have yet to back away from a "challenge."
My love to you Elizabeth and to you Raven, Thank you!
Virginia
One of my feelings has always been that the only person you have to impress is the one that signs your paycheck,..............you kinda shot some holes in that for me tonight, that in Wonderland there are also jobs available from and for other caring loving people. I guess this is where the student becomes the teacher and now you are making me cry as I see the continuing growth that you are achieving - GOD I am so proud of you!!!!!!!! Damn, now my make-up is running!! Your "Magical Mystery
Tour" has taken you to dare I day Narvanna! = Wonderland!" What you need to do now is reach you hand back and help those of us who are still searching for that treasured land! You have a least given me a map and told me what to look for, now all I have to do is muster the gonads to "step out in faith." That step I have to take on my own, no pushing or pulling will ever make me take it. It is totally up to Virginia! I can see you on that "other side" beconning me and I have yet to back away from a "challenge."
My love to you Elizabeth and to you Raven, Thank you!
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Hmmm... interesting post, Elizabeth. A fascinating way of looking at this, indeed. Like Virginia, I find there's much in what you say that's enlightening and thought-provoking. For example, yes, I'm out to my boss and colleagues and, yes, he still signs my paychecks. Of course, I don't go to work as "Christina" (by which I mean, go to meet my clients) but that's only because it would be a violation of ethical standards in the work I do. Yes, there is life after going through the mirror. Or there can be, at any rate.
One (tiny) objection I do have, though, concerns your idea that society (as an entity) exists only in our minds. I don't know if you've ever been assaulted while you were out dressed, Elizabeth, but I have. I'm pretty sure that the three thugs that came after me at the very least felt that they were acting in conformity with society's alleged distaste for any form of "in-your-face" expression of diversity. As such, these three people were, to a certain extent, a miniature version of "society as an entity." Trust me, the (admittedly, light) bruising I had the next day kind of confirmed for me that society doesn't exist just in my head. Still, my strategy here is to allay my own anxieties and fears by considering the possibility that these three "guy's guys" just had a poor grasp of what society expects of any of us. If not for this, I'd never step out that front door again.
I'm curious, Elizabeth, are you familiar with the late 60's French thinker, Jacques Derrida? Your post reminded me of one of the central concepts in his philosophy; namely, differance (not, I'll have you notice, spelled with a second 'e' but with an 'a'). Differance, according to Derrida, is a play on words whereby the term means both "to differ" and "to defer" (as in, "to push further into the background, or at a later date"). For Derrida, we can only know what the core of something is when we contrast it with something else. Doing this, though, means that there are other "contrasting possibilities" we must set aside ("defer"). For most of us, we try to pinpoint our identity, for example, by contrasting it with a template of sorts that society feels is desirable (for x, y, and z reasons). Derrida argues that it's possible--without abandoning our link to that template (he would, in fact, say that we cannot abandon it)--to contrast our being or our identity with something else... for instance, our own set of moral rules or our own will to be who we are.
I just found this interesting note on the internet; it explains much more simply than I can (with my own often imperfect understanding of "philosoph-icky" stuff) the meaning of differance:
The word 'differAnce,' spelled with an 'a,' is a coined term, and Derrida contrasts it with the vernacular term 'difference.' "Patterns of 'Difference,' he explains, [are] ...'produced' - deferred by 'differance'" (Derrida, J. Differance. In J. Derrida (Ed.), Margins of Philosophy, p.14, Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. 1982). But what does this mean, that difference is deferred by differAnce?
Imagine observing a quilt on the wall with patches of yellow,
blue and white. If you notice the yellow and the non-yellow,
you see a pattern of concentric boxes. If you notice the
blue and the non-blue you see a checkered design. Each
pattern is a play of differences, but it is a different set
of differences when yellow is differentiated from non-yellow
than when blue is differentiated from non-blue, a different
set of differences that shows us different patterns.
What is interesting about this shift from one pattern to
the other is that it not only calls our attention to a
new pattern, but that it suppresses our awareness of the
other pattern. DifferAnce defers a pattern of differences
(say the pattern of differences between the blue and the
not-blue). That is, one pattern of differences pushes
into the background another possible play of patterns.
You cannot study the pattern of yellows and the pattern
of blues at the same time because differAnce causes
one or the other patterns to be "deferred". DifferAnce
is the hidden way of seeing things that is deferred
out of awareness by our distraction with the imagery
that captures our attention. Because it contains this
other way to see things "DifferAnce is the...formation of
form." (Derrida, J. Grammatology. Baltimore: The Johns
Hopkins Press, p.63). It is the "historical and epochal 'unfolding'
of Being..." (Derrida, 1982, p.22).
Notes on Derrida's Concept of DifferAnce
Lois Shawver
Your "Wonderland," Elizabeth, is very much akin to Derrida's differance. In the terms of the quilt analogy quoted above, you've somehow managed to start noticing the checkered design pattern of the blue and not-blue while most of us are still focused on the concentric box pattern of the yellow and not-yellow. All of us (including you) are gazing at the same quilt but, for whatever reasons (social conditioning, psychological makeup, cognitive abilities, whatever), few of us are able to "switch" from one pattern to the other. Not without some help and guidance, at least. (Here, I'm also reminded of the stereograms Lorna posted several weeks ago; not everybody could see the image of the lions... all they could see was a grainy field of coloured dots).
Anyway, Elizabeth, you're an insightful person. It's a pleasure to have my gray matter slung about by your thoughts and experiences. Thanks for the post.
Love,
CJ
Hmmm... interesting post, Elizabeth. A fascinating way of looking at this, indeed. Like Virginia, I find there's much in what you say that's enlightening and thought-provoking. For example, yes, I'm out to my boss and colleagues and, yes, he still signs my paychecks. Of course, I don't go to work as "Christina" (by which I mean, go to meet my clients) but that's only because it would be a violation of ethical standards in the work I do. Yes, there is life after going through the mirror. Or there can be, at any rate.
One (tiny) objection I do have, though, concerns your idea that society (as an entity) exists only in our minds. I don't know if you've ever been assaulted while you were out dressed, Elizabeth, but I have. I'm pretty sure that the three thugs that came after me at the very least felt that they were acting in conformity with society's alleged distaste for any form of "in-your-face" expression of diversity. As such, these three people were, to a certain extent, a miniature version of "society as an entity." Trust me, the (admittedly, light) bruising I had the next day kind of confirmed for me that society doesn't exist just in my head. Still, my strategy here is to allay my own anxieties and fears by considering the possibility that these three "guy's guys" just had a poor grasp of what society expects of any of us. If not for this, I'd never step out that front door again.
I'm curious, Elizabeth, are you familiar with the late 60's French thinker, Jacques Derrida? Your post reminded me of one of the central concepts in his philosophy; namely, differance (not, I'll have you notice, spelled with a second 'e' but with an 'a'). Differance, according to Derrida, is a play on words whereby the term means both "to differ" and "to defer" (as in, "to push further into the background, or at a later date"). For Derrida, we can only know what the core of something is when we contrast it with something else. Doing this, though, means that there are other "contrasting possibilities" we must set aside ("defer"). For most of us, we try to pinpoint our identity, for example, by contrasting it with a template of sorts that society feels is desirable (for x, y, and z reasons). Derrida argues that it's possible--without abandoning our link to that template (he would, in fact, say that we cannot abandon it)--to contrast our being or our identity with something else... for instance, our own set of moral rules or our own will to be who we are.
I just found this interesting note on the internet; it explains much more simply than I can (with my own often imperfect understanding of "philosoph-icky" stuff) the meaning of differance:
The word 'differAnce,' spelled with an 'a,' is a coined term, and Derrida contrasts it with the vernacular term 'difference.' "Patterns of 'Difference,' he explains, [are] ...'produced' - deferred by 'differance'" (Derrida, J. Differance. In J. Derrida (Ed.), Margins of Philosophy, p.14, Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. 1982). But what does this mean, that difference is deferred by differAnce?
Imagine observing a quilt on the wall with patches of yellow,
blue and white. If you notice the yellow and the non-yellow,
you see a pattern of concentric boxes. If you notice the
blue and the non-blue you see a checkered design. Each
pattern is a play of differences, but it is a different set
of differences when yellow is differentiated from non-yellow
than when blue is differentiated from non-blue, a different
set of differences that shows us different patterns.
What is interesting about this shift from one pattern to
the other is that it not only calls our attention to a
new pattern, but that it suppresses our awareness of the
other pattern. DifferAnce defers a pattern of differences
(say the pattern of differences between the blue and the
not-blue). That is, one pattern of differences pushes
into the background another possible play of patterns.
You cannot study the pattern of yellows and the pattern
of blues at the same time because differAnce causes
one or the other patterns to be "deferred". DifferAnce
is the hidden way of seeing things that is deferred
out of awareness by our distraction with the imagery
that captures our attention. Because it contains this
other way to see things "DifferAnce is the...formation of
form." (Derrida, J. Grammatology. Baltimore: The Johns
Hopkins Press, p.63). It is the "historical and epochal 'unfolding'
of Being..." (Derrida, 1982, p.22).
Notes on Derrida's Concept of DifferAnce
Lois Shawver
Your "Wonderland," Elizabeth, is very much akin to Derrida's differance. In the terms of the quilt analogy quoted above, you've somehow managed to start noticing the checkered design pattern of the blue and not-blue while most of us are still focused on the concentric box pattern of the yellow and not-yellow. All of us (including you) are gazing at the same quilt but, for whatever reasons (social conditioning, psychological makeup, cognitive abilities, whatever), few of us are able to "switch" from one pattern to the other. Not without some help and guidance, at least. (Here, I'm also reminded of the stereograms Lorna posted several weeks ago; not everybody could see the image of the lions... all they could see was a grainy field of coloured dots).
Anyway, Elizabeth, you're an insightful person. It's a pleasure to have my gray matter slung about by your thoughts and experiences. Thanks for the post.
Love,
CJ
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Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1878
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 3:02 am
Hi girls,
Virginia,
I don't see it as "teacher becomes student" because I know I am still a student myself. As you search for answers, so do I and I don't know the things I think, to be true, they are just thoughts. Which is the reason tio present here, to my peers. My true peers, those who really understand what it means to have the need to be who we are. I have watched your growth as you watch mine, and I am indeed impressed by your growth and continues to press upon me the notion that there is no "correct" way to do this, that indeed we must all find our own way.
I know from my own expeerience it is easy to get caught in a trap of "incorrect thinking" which can lead to wrong concllusions that either slow down or actually retard our growth. I come here out of my own selfish needs to hopefully benefit from the experience of my sisters here, including the SO, as well as open up my own thinking to critical review to make sure I don't get caught up incorrect thinking. Thanks for your continued input into my own "Magical Mystery Tour".
CJ,
I did not mean to infer that the reality of other people's own beleif that society is a real thing should be ignored, merely the fact that "society" only exists in thier minds. It is not an independent quantifiable thing. That is why polling is so inconsistant and unreliable, imho.
Having said that I do sometimes forget I am a crossdresser and am in danger of those who would want to impose thier will on me. My son often accompanies me when I go to the store at night, for fear that I may be beat up while alone, he recently admitted to me. He too beleives that my inability to see society as a real thing, puts me in peril.
It is not that I don't understand the reality of it, it is that I have chosen not to live my life in fear. That is just another form of control. I beleive I act responsibly by not going places that would needless put me in jeapardy such as sports bars.
What I am saying is that while mean people do exist, "society" is not defined by thier actions, but thier beleif in the idea that they are acting in societies benefit by harrassing or beating up gays and crossdressers. Where I live, California, there is now a law to let everyone know that "society" has officially decided to tolerate crossdressers and gays by making it a crime to harrass them. The fact that "society" can not agree on what it really thinks is just further proof, as I see it, that society only exists in the mind of those who beleive in it.
I know this is a complex idea and you have to think outside the box a little bit to grasp it, but I only beleive this is the case because of the deep and repeated condiitioning we all recieve to accept "society" as a real thing.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Virginia,
I don't see it as "teacher becomes student" because I know I am still a student myself. As you search for answers, so do I and I don't know the things I think, to be true, they are just thoughts. Which is the reason tio present here, to my peers. My true peers, those who really understand what it means to have the need to be who we are. I have watched your growth as you watch mine, and I am indeed impressed by your growth and continues to press upon me the notion that there is no "correct" way to do this, that indeed we must all find our own way.
I know from my own expeerience it is easy to get caught in a trap of "incorrect thinking" which can lead to wrong concllusions that either slow down or actually retard our growth. I come here out of my own selfish needs to hopefully benefit from the experience of my sisters here, including the SO, as well as open up my own thinking to critical review to make sure I don't get caught up incorrect thinking. Thanks for your continued input into my own "Magical Mystery Tour".
CJ,
Wow!!!! that was a great peice you quoted, it really does describe how I feel about the two worlds being mutually exclusive, and perhaps it does indeed have to be that way. At least I feel it does. As long as one holds onto the moral, philosophical and religious judgements of society, one can not see wonderland and as soon as you stop accepting the judgements of society, it loses cohesion as a real entity.CJ quoted :
What is interesting about this shift from one pattern to
the other is that it not only calls our attention to a
new pattern, but that it suppresses our awareness of the
other pattern.
CJ wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the three thugs that came after me at the very least felt that they were acting in conformity with society's alleged distaste for any form of "in-your-face" expression of diversity.
I did not mean to infer that the reality of other people's own beleif that society is a real thing should be ignored, merely the fact that "society" only exists in thier minds. It is not an independent quantifiable thing. That is why polling is so inconsistant and unreliable, imho.
Having said that I do sometimes forget I am a crossdresser and am in danger of those who would want to impose thier will on me. My son often accompanies me when I go to the store at night, for fear that I may be beat up while alone, he recently admitted to me. He too beleives that my inability to see society as a real thing, puts me in peril.
It is not that I don't understand the reality of it, it is that I have chosen not to live my life in fear. That is just another form of control. I beleive I act responsibly by not going places that would needless put me in jeapardy such as sports bars.
What I am saying is that while mean people do exist, "society" is not defined by thier actions, but thier beleif in the idea that they are acting in societies benefit by harrassing or beating up gays and crossdressers. Where I live, California, there is now a law to let everyone know that "society" has officially decided to tolerate crossdressers and gays by making it a crime to harrass them. The fact that "society" can not agree on what it really thinks is just further proof, as I see it, that society only exists in the mind of those who beleive in it.
I know this is a complex idea and you have to think outside the box a little bit to grasp it, but I only beleive this is the case because of the deep and repeated condiitioning we all recieve to accept "society" as a real thing.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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Cathy L. Anderson
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:08 am
- Location: Europe
- Contact:
Re: Crossdresser In Wonderland
Thanks Elizabeth for a thought-provoking and articulate post.
I think Wonderland is the unconscious, including the world of Archetypes, and Society is in many ways a projection of our conscious Ego. Both have a role to play. The task is to bring these two into productive relationship. In the Jungian view, that's the purpose of the "alchemical marriage."
Or, if you want to take the Joseph Campbell view, Alice descends into the underworld of Wonderland, learns what she needs to, but then she returns. However, before she was merely "Alice of Society". Now she is "Alice who understands that she can move between Society and Wonderland." She is no longer constrained by or identified with either.
Cathy
The thing is, even if Society is only in our minds, that by no means trivializes it. If anything, it makes it more inevitable that we need to deal with it.Elizabeth wrote:"Wonderland" and "Society" seem to me to be two places on the opposite sides of the mirror. Both mutally exclusive and non-inclusive of the other, yet both exist only in our minds.
I think Wonderland is the unconscious, including the world of Archetypes, and Society is in many ways a projection of our conscious Ego. Both have a role to play. The task is to bring these two into productive relationship. In the Jungian view, that's the purpose of the "alchemical marriage."
Or, if you want to take the Joseph Campbell view, Alice descends into the underworld of Wonderland, learns what she needs to, but then she returns. However, before she was merely "Alice of Society". Now she is "Alice who understands that she can move between Society and Wonderland." She is no longer constrained by or identified with either.
Cathy
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Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1878
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 3:02 am
Cathy,
I do not deny there is a world of people that I must have some sort of dealings with or that will be able to have have an effect on my life. Or that I should ignore their belef in "society",
I am only saying that you can view that world of people as either "society" or "wonderland". You can not hold both view simultaniously and that people who become aware of a "wonderland" rarely swith back to view it as "society" again, it is almost impossible.
To realize that seeing the world in terms of "society" and what it expects from you, is just one way to look at the world. To find "wonderland" you have to start off with the premise that "society" is only one way to look at things. But "society" has as a standing rule that "there are no competing views, you must comply without question".
Once you realize that you can "not comply", and still live a happy life, or like in my case. live a way happier life, the motivation to accept the view that "society" has competing views, is gone.
Having said that, it does not mean that I have forgotten that many people do beleive "society" is the correct view of the world. If this is what you mean by
Perhaps you could give me another way to think about it, so I can better see your point of view?
Love always,
Elizabeth
I do not deny there is a world of people that I must have some sort of dealings with or that will be able to have have an effect on my life. Or that I should ignore their belef in "society",
I am only saying that you can view that world of people as either "society" or "wonderland". You can not hold both view simultaniously and that people who become aware of a "wonderland" rarely swith back to view it as "society" again, it is almost impossible.
To realize that seeing the world in terms of "society" and what it expects from you, is just one way to look at the world. To find "wonderland" you have to start off with the premise that "society" is only one way to look at things. But "society" has as a standing rule that "there are no competing views, you must comply without question".
Once you realize that you can "not comply", and still live a happy life, or like in my case. live a way happier life, the motivation to accept the view that "society" has competing views, is gone.
Having said that, it does not mean that I have forgotten that many people do beleive "society" is the correct view of the world. If this is what you mean by
I would whole heartedly agree. However if you are saying that you can change your view of the world between the two? I would have to disagree with that. I am just not convinced that could happen.Cathy wrote:
Now she is "Alice who understands that she can move between Society and Wonderland." She is no longer constrained by or identified with either.
Perhaps you could give me another way to think about it, so I can better see your point of view?
Love always,
Elizabeth
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Beauty
- Retired Site Administrator
- Posts: 3662
- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:30 am
- Location: Northern VA
- Contact:
Good morning Elizabeth,
When I moved away from the web last evening this was the last page I viewed so you began my web day this morning.
You really did an awesome job of describing where you are now. It's so wonderful and awesome how you've gone from society to wonderland. 
It funny that you used Wonderland. Why? Because I think of Raven as Alice (after you said Wonderland). She lives in the real world, but can visit wonderland. I'm not going to focus my reply to you on that, but I just thought it was interesting that I saw her as Alice. So you living in Wonderland totally fits.
The reason I choose, at this time, not to change my views on the way I want to live is because I don't want to live a life where I'm isolated because of the choice of gender I choose to represent fifty percent or higher of the time. I just don't care to that much right now. My career is doing very well right now and as a business person I'm really learning a lot about myself. The bottom line professionally is I don't wanna change. (like a stubborn 2 year old) I'm kidding there, I just don't want to right now, that's all.
Family-wise. I have relatives who I know would accept me but I'm an uncle and my brother isn't ready and I love, love, love, love being an uncle so I don't want to lose contact with him because it would mean I can't be the uncle. Maybe one day I'll decide I don't care, but for now I do. So I don't wanna draw the line in the sand quite yet. It would also affect a lot of people in my family that at this time I don't feel it's important for me to affect. I don't need acceptance from them because they see me as someone other than I am and I've learned to accept that through therapy. I love them so much!!! I love them unconditionally, but I don't expect the same thing back. So at this time it's not important enough to come out to my family. It was killing me inside not telling my mom, but she knows now and that's all that mattered to me family-wise.
Friends. All of my friends that care about me and I care about them know. So that's one part of my life I have decided it was important enough that I let them know.
When it comes to security I have a friend where someone attempted to rape her because she wasn't paying attention one night. Of course she beat the crap out of him, but if it had been more than one she would have been in trouble.
She blames herself because she said she wasn't paying attention. She said she was just in her own world and she also said she'd never make that mistake again. I've been out before dressed and tend to attract lookers and men approach me to talk to me. I am just too afraid to go out right now. Even when I've just been sitting in a car men have tried to come and talk to me. I wasn't dressed like a glam gal. I was just casually dressed, I even had short hair and hardly any makeup. So for right now my sense of security isn't in a comfy place right now. I imagine what I just typed could sound vain. First I don't mean it to be and I pray you all know that I don't think of myself as attractive. I look at my photos and go, "hey, that's not bad.", (most photos I think I'm rather unattractive 8 to 1 easily). So I don't think I'm attractive or passable enough to hold a conversation with someone and not be seen as a guy. Yes I can pass, but not where I'm comfy. Please believe me, if I did think I was passable, men approaching me wouldn't bother/intimidate me as much. I'd just not respond to them or walk away, or do something other than cower in fear because I'd know when they do a deep scan they'll see I'm TG'd and not a woman. Women know what I'm talking about when it comes to men approaching them or staring at them. It's very intimidating and can be dangerous, especially at night. So this is why I choose not to go out that much, unless it's to an event. For this reason I'm not ready to go out into society as who I am.
I hope this gives a broad understanding of why I don't want to stay in Wonderland right now, but I do like to visit the other side of the looking glass as much as possible.
I loved this post and this thread Elizabeth. There are so many parts of me that wish I could be you. You are so strong, confident, so beautiful inside and out, you are so complete. I'm not and I have reasons that are good reasons to me, but in reality they are excuses to why I won't be who I want to be. I'm working now with my psychologist to do more to help myself. I was trying to move further in my progress of who I am alone, but I realized I needed help. Sorry I digressed there. I'm more than proud of you Elizabeth, I'm in awe of you. You are so wonderful and thank you for your post as it too helped me grow.
Beauty
When I moved away from the web last evening this was the last page I viewed so you began my web day this morning.
You really did an awesome job of describing where you are now. It's so wonderful and awesome how you've gone from society to wonderland.
It funny that you used Wonderland. Why? Because I think of Raven as Alice (after you said Wonderland). She lives in the real world, but can visit wonderland. I'm not going to focus my reply to you on that, but I just thought it was interesting that I saw her as Alice.
So you living in Wonderland totally fits. The reason I choose, at this time, not to change my views on the way I want to live is because I don't want to live a life where I'm isolated because of the choice of gender I choose to represent fifty percent or higher of the time. I just don't care to that much right now. My career is doing very well right now and as a business person I'm really learning a lot about myself. The bottom line professionally is I don't wanna change.
(like a stubborn 2 year old) I'm kidding there, I just don't want to right now, that's all.Family-wise. I have relatives who I know would accept me but I'm an uncle and my brother isn't ready and I love, love, love, love being an uncle so I don't want to lose contact with him because it would mean I can't be the uncle. Maybe one day I'll decide I don't care, but for now I do. So I don't wanna draw the line in the sand quite yet. It would also affect a lot of people in my family that at this time I don't feel it's important for me to affect. I don't need acceptance from them because they see me as someone other than I am and I've learned to accept that through therapy. I love them so much!!! I love them unconditionally, but I don't expect the same thing back. So at this time it's not important enough to come out to my family. It was killing me inside not telling my mom, but she knows now and that's all that mattered to me family-wise.
Friends. All of my friends that care about me and I care about them know. So that's one part of my life I have decided it was important enough that I let them know.
When it comes to security I have a friend where someone attempted to rape her because she wasn't paying attention one night. Of course she beat the crap out of him, but if it had been more than one she would have been in trouble.
She blames herself because she said she wasn't paying attention. She said she was just in her own world and she also said she'd never make that mistake again. I've been out before dressed and tend to attract lookers and men approach me to talk to me. I am just too afraid to go out right now. Even when I've just been sitting in a car men have tried to come and talk to me. I wasn't dressed like a glam gal. I was just casually dressed, I even had short hair and hardly any makeup. So for right now my sense of security isn't in a comfy place right now. I imagine what I just typed could sound vain. First I don't mean it to be and I pray you all know that I don't think of myself as attractive. I look at my photos and go, "hey, that's not bad.", (most photos I think I'm rather unattractive 8 to 1 easily). So I don't think I'm attractive or passable enough to hold a conversation with someone and not be seen as a guy. Yes I can pass, but not where I'm comfy. Please believe me, if I did think I was passable, men approaching me wouldn't bother/intimidate me as much. I'd just not respond to them or walk away, or do something other than cower in fear because I'd know when they do a deep scan they'll see I'm TG'd and not a woman. Women know what I'm talking about when it comes to men approaching them or staring at them. It's very intimidating and can be dangerous, especially at night. So this is why I choose not to go out that much, unless it's to an event. For this reason I'm not ready to go out into society as who I am.I hope this gives a broad understanding of why I don't want to stay in Wonderland right now, but I do like to visit the other side of the looking glass as much as possible.
I loved this post and this thread Elizabeth. There are so many parts of me that wish I could be you. You are so strong, confident, so beautiful inside and out, you are so complete. I'm not and I have reasons that are good reasons to me, but in reality they are excuses to why I won't be who I want to be. I'm working now with my psychologist to do more to help myself. I was trying to move further in my progress of who I am alone, but I realized I needed help. Sorry I digressed there. I'm more than proud of you Elizabeth, I'm in awe of you. You are so wonderful and thank you for your post as it too helped me grow.
Beauty
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Elizabeth,
I think what Cathy means is that, once you're aware of the "trick" (say, the illusion that society has a life of its own, apart from the individuals that compose it), you're in a position to look at that trick both ways, meaning, both as the illusion that it is as well as the reality from which the illusion springs.
If you look at the following graphic, for example, pretend that "society as an entity" is the spiral. Most people will see that spiral. However, there is no spiral there; it's just a set of concentric rings (individuals, in other words). Once you see that, you can allow yourself to be "taken in" by the illusion while simultaneously understanding that it is, in fact, just an illusion.
Another example is what happens at the movies. We're fooled into thinking that there's motion happening up on the screen but the truth is, there isn't any motion there. It's discreet units of information; either 24 successive photographic frames run every second (in the case of celluloid) or a reassembled stream of bits (in the case of digital media). Being aware of this, however, usually doesn't lessen our enjoyment of what's happening on the screen (assuming we're not watching Kevin Kostner's Waterworld, that is). In the same way, it becomes entirely possible, once you become aware of the illusory nature of "society as an entity," to still enjoy the performance (a performance, by the way, which you, as an individual, participate in). This is the Jungian "alchemical marriage" Cathy was referring to above. In a way, you become a "co-creator" of your own reality, rather than just being a pawn in a game that nobody knows how to play.
I understand what you mean, though, Elizabeth, when you talk of "society as an entity." There's a philosophical term for this kind of thing; it's called reification (pr. RAY-if-ick-KAY-shun). It means making real, or giving substance to, something that isn't real and that has no substance of its own (from the Latin word, res, meaning a "thing," or "material" ...hence the word "reality"). We all do this, for example, every time we talk about "society" apart from the individuals that go to make it up. But, again, even if we understand this and know that we do this, it should not only not reduce our enjoyment in being a part of our culture but actually increase it because we now have a clearer understanding of our own (now "co-created") role in that culture.
That you come here on the forum, Elizabeth, and offer us these musings of yours is a definite contribution to "society as an entity"--even though you may have originally found your way here for purely personal reasons. In Joseph Campbell's terms, you've come back from your "exile" carrying a boon, a treasure, which you're now sharing with your "clan," your "tribe," yes, your "society."
Have fun being the "co-creator" you are!
Love,
CJ
Elizabeth,
I think what Cathy means is that, once you're aware of the "trick" (say, the illusion that society has a life of its own, apart from the individuals that compose it), you're in a position to look at that trick both ways, meaning, both as the illusion that it is as well as the reality from which the illusion springs.
If you look at the following graphic, for example, pretend that "society as an entity" is the spiral. Most people will see that spiral. However, there is no spiral there; it's just a set of concentric rings (individuals, in other words). Once you see that, you can allow yourself to be "taken in" by the illusion while simultaneously understanding that it is, in fact, just an illusion.
Another example is what happens at the movies. We're fooled into thinking that there's motion happening up on the screen but the truth is, there isn't any motion there. It's discreet units of information; either 24 successive photographic frames run every second (in the case of celluloid) or a reassembled stream of bits (in the case of digital media). Being aware of this, however, usually doesn't lessen our enjoyment of what's happening on the screen (assuming we're not watching Kevin Kostner's Waterworld, that is). In the same way, it becomes entirely possible, once you become aware of the illusory nature of "society as an entity," to still enjoy the performance (a performance, by the way, which you, as an individual, participate in). This is the Jungian "alchemical marriage" Cathy was referring to above. In a way, you become a "co-creator" of your own reality, rather than just being a pawn in a game that nobody knows how to play.
I understand what you mean, though, Elizabeth, when you talk of "society as an entity." There's a philosophical term for this kind of thing; it's called reification (pr. RAY-if-ick-KAY-shun). It means making real, or giving substance to, something that isn't real and that has no substance of its own (from the Latin word, res, meaning a "thing," or "material" ...hence the word "reality"). We all do this, for example, every time we talk about "society" apart from the individuals that go to make it up. But, again, even if we understand this and know that we do this, it should not only not reduce our enjoyment in being a part of our culture but actually increase it because we now have a clearer understanding of our own (now "co-created") role in that culture.
That you come here on the forum, Elizabeth, and offer us these musings of yours is a definite contribution to "society as an entity"--even though you may have originally found your way here for purely personal reasons. In Joseph Campbell's terms, you've come back from your "exile" carrying a boon, a treasure, which you're now sharing with your "clan," your "tribe," yes, your "society."
Have fun being the "co-creator" you are!
Love,
CJ
-
CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
-
Beauty
- Retired Site Administrator
- Posts: 3662
- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:30 am
- Location: Northern VA
- Contact:
Hi CJ,
Thanks. I was inspired by Elizabeth for sure. I couldn't read your post without scrolling that image off the screen. It made me dizzy.
I never really read the book Alice in Wonderland, so I don't know who she would have been.
Thanks again. Back to Elizabeth's thread now.
Ooops one more thing CJ
Beauty
Thanks.
I was inspired by Elizabeth for sure. I couldn't read your post without scrolling that image off the screen. It made me dizzy. I never really read the book Alice in Wonderland, so I don't know who she would have been.
Thanks again. Back to Elizabeth's thread now.
Ooops one more thing CJ
Beauty
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Loretta Ann
- Permanently Banned
- Posts: 2199
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:30 pm
- Location: Vancouver, Canada
Hi all,
Society….what is it?
a. • The totality of social relationships among humans.
b. A group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture.
c. The institutions and culture of a distinct self-perpetuating group.
• An organization or association of persons engaged in a common profession, activity, or interest: a folklore society; a society of bird watchers.
a. • The rich, privileged, and fashionable social class.
b. The socially dominant members of a community.
• Companionship; company: enjoys the society of friends and family members.
This forum is a society, we are a society of cross-dressers, and we attempt to set rules, the same as other societies within our community attempt to set them.
Is it not our interpretation of society that confuses us? Just who is it that is setting this opposition that opposes us? Just how much of that are we responsible for. In other words how much of that are we buying, and from which part (society) of our community are we buying it from?
How many of the things (obstacles) we determine are important to us are created within our own minds?
In my situation my blood family is abusive, and offers nothing in the way of a meaningful relationship.
However that need not be the end. I just had to find a different family…(a different society) one that is not abusive. A Wonderland.
My illusion was to attempt to find my wonderland by (pleasing) attempting to, fit into my family or (what I perceived to be) society. It was like trying to fit a square wooden peg into a metal round hole. It doesn’t fit… It hurts like hell.
Love
Darlene.
Society….what is it?
a. • The totality of social relationships among humans.
b. A group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture.
c. The institutions and culture of a distinct self-perpetuating group.
• An organization or association of persons engaged in a common profession, activity, or interest: a folklore society; a society of bird watchers.
a. • The rich, privileged, and fashionable social class.
b. The socially dominant members of a community.
• Companionship; company: enjoys the society of friends and family members.
This forum is a society, we are a society of cross-dressers, and we attempt to set rules, the same as other societies within our community attempt to set them.
Is it not our interpretation of society that confuses us? Just who is it that is setting this opposition that opposes us? Just how much of that are we responsible for. In other words how much of that are we buying, and from which part (society) of our community are we buying it from?
How many of the things (obstacles) we determine are important to us are created within our own minds?
In my situation my blood family is abusive, and offers nothing in the way of a meaningful relationship.
However that need not be the end. I just had to find a different family…(a different society) one that is not abusive. A Wonderland.
My illusion was to attempt to find my wonderland by (pleasing) attempting to, fit into my family or (what I perceived to be) society. It was like trying to fit a square wooden peg into a metal round hole. It doesn’t fit… It hurts like hell.
Love
Darlene.
-
Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1878
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 3:02 am
Hi girls,
These posts have put such a huge smile on my face this morning. I was hoping to provoke thoughtful, insightful views on this, and I have to say, I am not disappointed.
Beauty,
Just knowing about "wonderland" means you understand and most likey accept this view of the world. In my opinion this does not prevent one from associating with those who accept the view of "society". And taking part in thier world. While my clothing does give people a hint that I don't hold all the views of "society", most of them can not phathom the existance of "wonderland" and just assume I am either insane or have some other mental disorder that prevents me from knowing how to behave properly. I know that many people become very insecure at even the slightest suggestion that "society" is not a real thing that must be obeyed. For those people my dressing is very unnerving. However, all in all, most people are not shaken by my dressing and have no trouble interacting with me.
When I speak of living in one world or the other, I only mean that I don't believe that one could see the world through both views. Either one accepts that "society" is the correct view of the world, or they don't. I like using gay people as an example. Once gay people made it so well known how many of them existed, despite society's view they were sexual diviants, "society" had to officially change it's view to pervent a breakdown in beleif. Indeed gay people are no longer beleived to be mentally ill, and continue to gain acceptance by society and now are a part of "society".
CJ,
Yes, I did understand that Cathy was saying you can understand both views, and perhaps I was too strict in how I interpreted her post, when she talked about going back and forth. It is my beleif that one can not hold both views, but one certainly can understand that whatever someone beleives, is indeed thier reality and dealing with them knowing this, is an advantage.
And indeed the fact that "society" only exists in people's minds does not make it any less real. I have said before that minds can only be changed one at a time. There are some everyday. who find "wonderland" and it is not lost on me that one must look into the mirror to find it.
Love always,
Elizabeth
These posts have put such a huge smile on my face this morning. I was hoping to provoke thoughtful, insightful views on this, and I have to say, I am not disappointed.
Beauty,
Just knowing about "wonderland" means you understand and most likey accept this view of the world. In my opinion this does not prevent one from associating with those who accept the view of "society". And taking part in thier world. While my clothing does give people a hint that I don't hold all the views of "society", most of them can not phathom the existance of "wonderland" and just assume I am either insane or have some other mental disorder that prevents me from knowing how to behave properly. I know that many people become very insecure at even the slightest suggestion that "society" is not a real thing that must be obeyed. For those people my dressing is very unnerving. However, all in all, most people are not shaken by my dressing and have no trouble interacting with me.
When I speak of living in one world or the other, I only mean that I don't believe that one could see the world through both views. Either one accepts that "society" is the correct view of the world, or they don't. I like using gay people as an example. Once gay people made it so well known how many of them existed, despite society's view they were sexual diviants, "society" had to officially change it's view to pervent a breakdown in beleif. Indeed gay people are no longer beleived to be mentally ill, and continue to gain acceptance by society and now are a part of "society".
CJ,
Yes, I did understand that Cathy was saying you can understand both views, and perhaps I was too strict in how I interpreted her post, when she talked about going back and forth. It is my beleif that one can not hold both views, but one certainly can understand that whatever someone beleives, is indeed thier reality and dealing with them knowing this, is an advantage.
And indeed the fact that "society" only exists in people's minds does not make it any less real. I have said before that minds can only be changed one at a time. There are some everyday. who find "wonderland" and it is not lost on me that one must look into the mirror to find it.
Love always,
Elizabeth
-
Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1878
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 3:02 am
Darlene,
Apparently your post came up while I was writing my last post so I did not see it until I posted my last post.
It srems you have grasped the idea that our own perceptions of what we are experiencing is what I am taling about. You can choose to accept the judgements of "society", which is really just a metaphor for those who follow a code of standards because they were told to, not necessarily because they personally believe it, although they may.
I mean? What is the reason men should not wear women's clothes again? It must cause injury or disease or cause some tragedy to happen? Right? The truth is that someone decided it all by themselves thousands of years ago, and was in a position to impose it on others, and insisted they impose it on each other. There is no rational reason.
Society's inability to accept my existance forced me to conclude that it could not be the correct way to view the world, that it could not be something independent on it's own. That brought me here, to a place with others like me, that "society" had refused to accept thier existance also. From there I only had to pay attention. Those who seemed most happy to me, were the ones that disregarded "society's" judgements and accepted thier own existance as legitimate.
At first is seemed like it would be impossible, that letting go of what "society" would take back of I shunned it, would be too much. But that too turned out to be a hollow threat. Because "society" is not a real thing, it is unable to coordinate it's effort against me. Other than the sporadic glares or rude comments, there is really not much anyone can do to me. This is why most of my fears were not realized.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Apparently your post came up while I was writing my last post so I did not see it until I posted my last post.
It srems you have grasped the idea that our own perceptions of what we are experiencing is what I am taling about. You can choose to accept the judgements of "society", which is really just a metaphor for those who follow a code of standards because they were told to, not necessarily because they personally believe it, although they may.
I mean? What is the reason men should not wear women's clothes again? It must cause injury or disease or cause some tragedy to happen? Right? The truth is that someone decided it all by themselves thousands of years ago, and was in a position to impose it on others, and insisted they impose it on each other. There is no rational reason.
Society's inability to accept my existance forced me to conclude that it could not be the correct way to view the world, that it could not be something independent on it's own. That brought me here, to a place with others like me, that "society" had refused to accept thier existance also. From there I only had to pay attention. Those who seemed most happy to me, were the ones that disregarded "society's" judgements and accepted thier own existance as legitimate.
At first is seemed like it would be impossible, that letting go of what "society" would take back of I shunned it, would be too much. But that too turned out to be a hollow threat. Because "society" is not a real thing, it is unable to coordinate it's effort against me. Other than the sporadic glares or rude comments, there is really not much anyone can do to me. This is why most of my fears were not realized.
Seems to me like you understand perfectly.Darlene wrote:
However that need not be the end. I just had to find a different family…(a different society) one that is not abusive. A Wonderland.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
Are we all not saying the same thing?? Society exists, even if it is in someone's mind - up until the reality of society rears its ugly head as in CJ's situation. Beauty, is aware of Wonderland, knows how to get there, but chooses not to take that leap -------- yet! Virginia is at the gate, but is struggling with having the intestinal fortitude to grab the handle, open the door and step inside.
It seems that we all agree with your premise, Elizabeth, it is that we are all at various phases of our "Tour" and then we look at you as you have "passed over to Wonderland." We are all sooo happy for you, but we struggle with our own desires, needs. and wants and for different reasons just have not, will not, can not take that final step ---yet!
Love you all,
Virginia
It seems that we all agree with your premise, Elizabeth, it is that we are all at various phases of our "Tour" and then we look at you as you have "passed over to Wonderland." We are all sooo happy for you, but we struggle with our own desires, needs. and wants and for different reasons just have not, will not, can not take that final step ---yet!
Love you all,
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
-
Beauty
- Retired Site Administrator
- Posts: 3662
- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:30 am
- Location: Northern VA
- Contact: