Non-Passable Out-And-About Crossdressers

[KimberlyS]

Below is a post that I responded to on the CDDF forum and I thought it would be a benefit to post it here also. As I feel that this subject is often looked down on by the "Normal" CDers. The original post is referenced and also below my posting.

Leslie,
In response to your post 'Non-Passable Out-And-About Crossdressers'

[DonnaT]

I don't want to appear judgemental, but I am really troubled by what I saw. . . . But as a crossdresser, I was personally offended by this individual making a spectacle of himself, and just reinforcing all of the negative stereotypes and impressions that many people still have of us.

People have the right to express themselves as they desire, within the bounds of the law.

A portion of the above quote could easily be rewritten as:

But as a man, I was personally offended by this individual making a spectacle of himself

as an example of how many men in our society react to CDs/TVs. And we, CDs, would not appreciate such a statement.

Likewise, CDs shouldn't be judgemental about the way other CDs dress.

[Virginia]

Well I have tried to envision this but I keep coming back to the fact that it is all speculation as to the who and why this person was where they were doing what they were. The reasons cover such a broad spectrum that it does not even warrant discussion, what it does do is a very positive. It introduces "us" more to society. Consider, and dare I say, a "redneck" walking through the mall and sees this person as described. A real unique thing to see - right?? Now he walks on and see another, and yet another and then another and suddenly he is no longer the majority, he is the minority and "we are everywhere!" Then you get into questions like, "what is the saturation point?" At what point are we totally acceptable? And if the mystique goes away, the rush, if you will of going out against society, dressed, what then!!??
Questions and more questions?
My only comment is bless 'em and use 'em!!!!
Virginia

[KimberlyS]

Donna and Virgina, thanks for the responses as i so agree with them.

Virgina you said "bless 'em and use 'em" and that is so right on. IMO any exposure (non-bad that is) is good as it gets it in front of people and lets them see us as in your redneck example. The more people see the more they just consider it part of society and that is how society changes.

I am loving all of the bits and pieces of cding that have been and are more and more being in TV and movies. If cding and TG issues are showing up on TV and in movies it really makes me wonder how many people in that industry are TG?????

[Anita]

Hi Kimberly--
Thanks for the acknowledgment of what I was trying to say. I can't help but have feelings about what the guy is doing, but he's one of us, at the same time.

I'm still not sure about the best ways to increase acceptance. I don't believe that TG performers like myself are really going to help that much, because we've always been out there. Maybe there will be more of us, and we'll become more mainstream entertainment. But we'll continue to be looked upon as "special" somehow, and not part of ordinary life. It's when I'm out there shopping at Safeway or Kroger that I'm doing more for general acceptance. My goal out there is to blend in, not necessarily to pass. I don't want gawking and double-takes, but neither do I have to be seen as a woman to get respect and decent treatment.

I think that acceptance will happen in ways that we can't imagine right now, and it may be sooner than we think. For right now, I'm still trying to think of different ways that more and more 'sisters' can get out there. The answers have not been easy to find, but it doesn't stop me from continuing to search.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

These issues aren't a new one -- they've been faced by lots of other minority groups. To what extent is one a representative of/model for one's group? Does passing do anything to advance the group? Who's an "authentic" member of [insert group here]?

The passing issue was/is(?) a big one for the gay/lesbian community and has lead to some nasty self-destructive arguing -- with "straight-acting" gays and lesbians being accused of not being "authentic" enough.

Some crossdressers, such as Lacey Leigh, argue that those who truly are mistaken for GGs do nothing to advance public awareness. From an intellectual and political POV I agree. Think about it, if the estimated 5-10% of men who crossdress all came out at once, there would undoubtedly be a change in attitudes. OTOH, personally if I'm going out en femme (and not en androgynous) I'd prefer to act the part to the best of my abilities. Am I more likely to blend into the background? Of course, but not every outing has to be evangelism.

Likewise, I'm not going to tell someone not to make a spectacle of themselves, even if it makes me cringe. OTOH, someone that out there may not hurt as much as we think, simply because people are more likely to think "attention-seeking eccentric" rather than "crossdresser" -- as least that's the impression I got from the New Yorker article on High-Heel Neil. http://www.skirtman.org/new_yorker_1995_01_16.html In fact, I got the feeling Neil's intentionally sloppy appearance was a way of trying to signal to others (and perhaps himself): really, I'm not TG, really, truly...

I think our image is probably be hurt more by the many and sundry CDs whose focus comes of as seeming be from the crotch rather than the heart. Not that I don't enjoy dressing the tart myself at times, but it's not the first photo I'd put on my profile. Again, this is something the gay/lesbian community has wrestled with for a long time.

I agree with Kimberly too many of us are paralyzed by the thought of not passing perfectly. Which is a shame, since I've found it's more about being presentable than passable. Yes, I can often pass in a crowd, but in up-close interactions I've got few illusions that I'll be mistaken for a GG. Yet I've usually been treated like a lady -- and I'd like to think it's because I act like I deserve respect.

Speaking of visibility, 20/20 will be doing a segment Friday on the TG who was denied a job at the Library of Congress despite her extensive service record and A&E will be doing a special on the upcoming transition of Alexis Arquette (a brother/sister to Patricia Arquette). Granted that creates it's own issues for CDs -- no, I don't want to become a woman -- but overall it's for the good.

[Leslie Langford]

Kimberly,

I don't know if I should be flattered or dismayed by the fact that you chose to publish one of the posts here that I had originally contributed to the Cross Dressers Forum as a way of advancing your own particular agenda.

I realize that when one posts an article or image on the internet, one loses control over where it eventually ends up, and frankly, I stand by what I said originally, so that is not my issue. But as a member in good standing on this forum, I would have been quite capable of posting it here myself had I been so inclined, and I think that you could at least have consulted with me first before doing so as a matter of courtesy. This kind of thing probably falls into a "gray zone" within the framework of the Crossdressers-Forum policies, and perhaps Beauty can give us a ruling on what might be appropriate here.

All that said, the essence of my original post was that I had no intention of positioning myself as the Emily Post of crossdressing ettiquette, and if that particular individual wanted to be an in-your-face, blatantly non-passable crossdresser, then that was his prerogative. However, what I did want to highlight was the fact that while he was "doing his thing", he made a number of people that he was interacting with rather uncomfortable, and I consider that to be a selfish and self-centered act. I am fundamentally a "live and let live" kind of person, but I also believe in the principle that someone else's right to swing their arm ends where my nose begins.

Perhaps as a further point of clarification, you might consider referencing kathy gg's subsequent answer to my post on the other forum, in which she stated that she actually knew this individual, having been out in public with him previously as part of a crossdresser shopping service that she provides. kathy is also a member in good standing here, and while we have not met yet, we live in very close geographical proximity to each other. It was therefore not too big of a stretch that she also knew this non-passable crossdresser, and she essentially corroborated everything that I had pointed out through my own independent observations. And, as if that were not enough (talk about your six degrees of separation!), this person was actually the subject of a post that she herself had published here some weeks ago. I don't recall the exact subject or category that it was posted under, but in it she relayed the details of a shopping trip with him that had made her very uncomfortable for those very reasons. Coming from a lady who is closely tied to the crossdressing community and is very sympathetic and supportive of our lifestyle in general, this carries considerable weight in my opinion.

Bottom line - kathy has confirmed that this person is, in fact, someone who deliberately dresses as a non-passable male in garish, in-your face drag because he gets a thrill from the shock value, negative attention, and outright humiliation that this type of behavior attracts.

All of this brings me back to my original point, which is that when you are out doing your particular "thing", please be mindful of what effect it can have on others. Like it or not, every time one of us is out in public, we act as a de facto ambassador for our community, so we bear a great responsibility to act appropriately if we have any hope of gaining full mainstream acceptance some day. Let me also put it another way: Many of us have non-accepting or non-supportive wives, and in the majority of cases, that exists partly because they are fearful of the humiliation and backlash they (or our families) might endure if we openly practised our lifestyle. Sure, we can lay the blame on the lack of education, sophistication, and tolerance on the part of those around us and society as a whole, but it is what it is.

I rest my case.

Leslie

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Since the issue came up on another thread, let me say I'm not trying to slam CDs who dress sexy or for whom dressing can have a sexual element. (I do both myself.)

My point is that acts in public do have consequences, which is why many groups have had to go through a "model minority" phase in an effort to gain respectability. Not fair, not fun, but often the way it is.

I don't think we need deny our sexuality, but it would be wise to be conscious about the message we intend to send about ourselves. If you want to be a tart that's fine, just don't complain about not being treated as a lady.

[Beauty]

Kimberly,

I don't know if I should be flattered or dismayed by the fact that you chose to publish one of the posts here that I had originally contributed to the Cross Dressers Forum as a way of advancing your own particular agenda.

I realize that when one posts an article or image on the internet, one loses control over where it eventually ends up, and frankly, I stand by what I said originally, so that is not my issue. But as a member in good standing on this forum, I would have been quite capable of posting it here myself had I been so inclined, and I think that you could at least have consulted with me first before doing so as a matter of courtesy. This kind of thing probably falls into a "gray zone" within the framework of the Crossdressers-Forum policies, and perhaps Beauty can give us a ruling on what might be appropriate here.

Hi Leslie,

Sorry that post was there so long. I logged on this morning and when I saw it I removed it immediately.

We do not allow published posts on other boards to be posted here and we don't like our posts to be posted on other boards.

Like you said Leslie. If you wanted to post that here you would have. Again, I'm sorry I didn't get here sooner.

[Leslie Langford]

Thank you for your support, Beauty - it is much appreciated!

Hugs,

Leslie