I think you'll get different answers, but I liked Alexandra's definition. Transgendered covers those who CD to the Transexual realm. I consider myself Transgendered.
Transgendered are also defined as those who have gender identity disorders (GID).
People are VERY slowly starting to not associate sex with gender. I like transgendered because it says, this person hasn't changed their sex. A post op TS is still referred to as a TG'd person, but I think of them as women. The Pre-OP TS, I consider TG'd.
Beauty
What is transgendered, etc.? a request for input
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Beauty
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Alexandra
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[the following came from the "Glamour" thread]
. . . we have crossdressers at one end and post-op transsexuals at the other end and in between those two there are (supposedly) 27 other different classifications which are covered under the "transgendered" umbrella, so . . . if one isn't a CD or a post-op transsexual, then they're "transgendered".
I've seen both CDs and TGs refer to themselves as "t-girls." IMO I think its okay to use this term for both during casual conversations . . . no need to be technical all the time.
IMO, I'd say you're in a grey area -- mainly because you are asking if it is possible you might be transgendered. IMO a "pure" crossdresser would probably not be asking themselves that after a little education on the subject. In fact, some long-time CDers point out that they are "just crossdressers" after being introduced (in person or on the net).
On the other hand, for example in my case, its a state of mind. I'm a girl period. Its not something I can purge or put away until next weekend. Whereas many (most?) people here are primarily excited/turned on by female clothing and/or dressing up, for transgendered people, IMO its more than that. In fact, the female clothing thing is rather secondary to me. I hardly get excited as some people here about girls clothes, yet I've a closet full of female clothing, because, well, its what girls wear and I want to look nice.
I don't know if this is helpful but I suspect sooner or later it'll become clear to you as you travel on this exciting journey.
. . . we have crossdressers at one end and post-op transsexuals at the other end and in between those two there are (supposedly) 27 other different classifications which are covered under the "transgendered" umbrella, so . . . if one isn't a CD or a post-op transsexual, then they're "transgendered".
I've seen both CDs and TGs refer to themselves as "t-girls." IMO I think its okay to use this term for both during casual conversations . . . no need to be technical all the time.
IMO, I'd say you're in a grey area -- mainly because you are asking if it is possible you might be transgendered. IMO a "pure" crossdresser would probably not be asking themselves that after a little education on the subject. In fact, some long-time CDers point out that they are "just crossdressers" after being introduced (in person or on the net).
On the other hand, for example in my case, its a state of mind. I'm a girl period. Its not something I can purge or put away until next weekend. Whereas many (most?) people here are primarily excited/turned on by female clothing and/or dressing up, for transgendered people, IMO its more than that. In fact, the female clothing thing is rather secondary to me. I hardly get excited as some people here about girls clothes, yet I've a closet full of female clothing, because, well, its what girls wear and I want to look nice.
I don't know if this is helpful but I suspect sooner or later it'll become clear to you as you travel on this exciting journey.
Alexandra
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Beauty
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I'm in a group of CD's who doesn't say I feel like a woman.
I think women are totally different than transgendered "gurls" and so I can't relate with the way they feel. I can relate with the way a woman feels when she dresses, with the way hose work, when she dresses to be sexy and a few other odd things here and there.
I can say I do know what it feels like to be feel manly, but I don't think men would say that I'm a man.
I guess I'm with you. I am transgendered. So I can tell people how that feels.
Beauty
I think women are totally different than transgendered "gurls" and so I can't relate with the way they feel. I can relate with the way a woman feels when she dresses, with the way hose work, when she dresses to be sexy and a few other odd things here and there.
I can say I do know what it feels like to be feel manly, but I don't think men would say that I'm a man.
I guess I'm with you. I am transgendered. So I can tell people how that feels.
Beauty
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Laura
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Beauty
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Hi there,
Sure I'd be happy to speak more on it.
There are those of us who dress who don't say we feel like women or want to get lost in the thought of being a woman.
So, now for me. . . . . . I wear femme clothing and when I wear them I don't want to go out and shoot pool with a cigar.
When I'm dressed en drabbe then I like being manly. I reckon' (listening to a Carpenter's country like song when I wrote that word ) that it's because I enjoy being a guy. Here's a bad idea if you want to instigate a fight. Say to a guy, "Hey Honey, you are such a hot looking woman." That'll get you in a fight with any macho guy in a heartbeat. (Please no one try and expirement)
Because I still am attached to the guy in me, I can't imagine myself becoming a woman. During different stages of being a CD'r there are times when I feel further away from masculinity than other times, but for me I enjoy being a guy who dresses in gal clothing sometimes. That guy part of me doesn't want to be called a "girl".
When I was kid, girls were not allowed in my "All Boys Woman Haters Club" just like in the little Rascals. They tried to chase and kiss me.
They were my childhood rivals! lol.. on top of it all, they got to wear the cutest dresses, with tights and long hair. Most of them complained about being forced to wear those clothes. Meanwhile I was begging inside for someone to ask me too.
I make light of it, but the truth is for the most part I don't think I feel enough like a woman to be comfortable saying that I do, especially in front of real GGs.
Being called girl or being included with girls while dressed has always been not right with me, but in the same breath, being called "dude" when dressed is equally offensive. Sheeesh... I'm all over the place.
Sorry, but I've never put these thoughts to words before. (Yeah, yeah.. you can tell!
)
I'll just stop here.
Talk to you later!!!
Beauty
Sure I'd be happy to speak more on it.
There are those of us who dress who don't say we feel like women or want to get lost in the thought of being a woman.
So, now for me. . . . . . I wear femme clothing and when I wear them I don't want to go out and shoot pool with a cigar.
When I'm dressed en drabbe then I like being manly. I reckon' (listening to a Carpenter's country like song when I wrote that word ) that it's because I enjoy being a guy. Here's a bad idea if you want to instigate a fight. Say to a guy, "Hey Honey, you are such a hot looking woman." That'll get you in a fight with any macho guy in a heartbeat. (Please no one try and expirement)Because I still am attached to the guy in me, I can't imagine myself becoming a woman. During different stages of being a CD'r there are times when I feel further away from masculinity than other times, but for me I enjoy being a guy who dresses in gal clothing sometimes. That guy part of me doesn't want to be called a "girl".
When I was kid, girls were not allowed in my "All Boys Woman Haters Club" just like in the little Rascals. They tried to chase and kiss me.
They were my childhood rivals! lol.. on top of it all, they got to wear the cutest dresses, with tights and long hair. Most of them complained about being forced to wear those clothes. Meanwhile I was begging inside for someone to ask me too. I make light of it, but the truth is for the most part I don't think I feel enough like a woman to be comfortable saying that I do, especially in front of real GGs.
Being called girl or being included with girls while dressed has always been not right with me, but in the same breath, being called "dude" when dressed is equally offensive. Sheeesh... I'm all over the place.
Sorry, but I've never put these thoughts to words before. (Yeah, yeah.. you can tell!
)I'll just stop here.
Talk to you later!!!
Beauty
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CJ
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Hi all,
Hmmm, interesting thread. Not being into labels much either, I'd never really given this serious thought. From what I can gather, there seems to be no consensus out there yet on how to classify the different aspects of gender-variant expression.
"Trans" seems to imply a "crossing over" into another territory or area. Once a man, now a woman (or vice-versa). I think the reason why the word "transgender" has the power to raise so many hackles is that it also implies a "finality," a done deed. Yet, for many of us, gender play is a dialectic affair: we're partially this or partially that; we're this, but not quite, or we're that, but also not quite; we're a heady mixture of both genders and neither one. We hop over the fence many times in our going from one gender expression to another (even though, in our main identity, we may be sitting pretty on the fence itself).
Like Beauty, I consider post-op transsexuals women (or men, for FtMs) rather than transgendered individuals--they've left behind the physiological characteristics of their former sex (not their former gender) and taken on those of their new one. Their gender identity never changed. Transsexuality is a body thing; transgenderism is a mind thing. Crossdressers, depending where they are on the gender rainbow, can exhibit a little bit of both. Plus, the word "crossdressing" itself refers to an activity whereas the word "transgender" refers to a state of mind. The difference is crucial; it's entirely possible (though not very likely) to see a transgendered person who will never crossdress or, conversely, a crossdressed person who in no way considers himself gender-dysphoric.
So, transgendered or not? It's always a tough call to make; it's one only you can make for yourself. I hear what you're saying, though, Julie; how can you determine if such is the case without your having any clear idea of what it means to be one gender or the other? What does it mean when Shania Twain says she feels like a woman? I rather suspect what she means is she feels like Shania Twain. At this point, I tend to take the easy way out. And I have two methods that help me do this; one, I try to concentrate on what it means to be human rather than merely a man or a woman and, two, I envision there being more than merely two genders (here, the word "pangendered" might be more appropriate than "transgendered"). Myself, and I've always said this, I love to slide around on the gender rainbow (it beats singin' in the rain!).
This might appeal to the scientist in you. You can look at gender identity through the framework of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle: if you "freeze-frame" your gender identity, you cannot then know where that identity is apt to take you; on the other hand, if you "ride" your identity and let it take you where it will, it becomes impossible for you to pinpoint exactly what it is.
One last thing--and I address this to the highly-paid label-makers at the APA in charge of constructing the DSM--change the term "Gender Dysphoria" to "Gender Euphoria," if you want your book to reflect reality.
Well, I want to thank you for coming up with this thread. There's much food for thought, here. And thinking is good.
Love,
CJ
Hmmm, interesting thread. Not being into labels much either, I'd never really given this serious thought. From what I can gather, there seems to be no consensus out there yet on how to classify the different aspects of gender-variant expression.
"Trans" seems to imply a "crossing over" into another territory or area. Once a man, now a woman (or vice-versa). I think the reason why the word "transgender" has the power to raise so many hackles is that it also implies a "finality," a done deed. Yet, for many of us, gender play is a dialectic affair: we're partially this or partially that; we're this, but not quite, or we're that, but also not quite; we're a heady mixture of both genders and neither one. We hop over the fence many times in our going from one gender expression to another (even though, in our main identity, we may be sitting pretty on the fence itself).
Like Beauty, I consider post-op transsexuals women (or men, for FtMs) rather than transgendered individuals--they've left behind the physiological characteristics of their former sex (not their former gender) and taken on those of their new one. Their gender identity never changed. Transsexuality is a body thing; transgenderism is a mind thing. Crossdressers, depending where they are on the gender rainbow, can exhibit a little bit of both. Plus, the word "crossdressing" itself refers to an activity whereas the word "transgender" refers to a state of mind. The difference is crucial; it's entirely possible (though not very likely) to see a transgendered person who will never crossdress or, conversely, a crossdressed person who in no way considers himself gender-dysphoric.
So, transgendered or not? It's always a tough call to make; it's one only you can make for yourself. I hear what you're saying, though, Julie; how can you determine if such is the case without your having any clear idea of what it means to be one gender or the other? What does it mean when Shania Twain says she feels like a woman? I rather suspect what she means is she feels like Shania Twain. At this point, I tend to take the easy way out. And I have two methods that help me do this; one, I try to concentrate on what it means to be human rather than merely a man or a woman and, two, I envision there being more than merely two genders (here, the word "pangendered" might be more appropriate than "transgendered"). Myself, and I've always said this, I love to slide around on the gender rainbow (it beats singin' in the rain!).
This might appeal to the scientist in you. You can look at gender identity through the framework of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle: if you "freeze-frame" your gender identity, you cannot then know where that identity is apt to take you; on the other hand, if you "ride" your identity and let it take you where it will, it becomes impossible for you to pinpoint exactly what it is.
One last thing--and I address this to the highly-paid label-makers at the APA in charge of constructing the DSM--change the term "Gender Dysphoria" to "Gender Euphoria," if you want your book to reflect reality.
Well, I want to thank you for coming up with this thread. There's much food for thought, here. And thinking is good.
Love,
CJ
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Laura
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Hi all:
It seems to me that one of the points all hold in common is that transgenderism is a state of mind, to be distinguished from sexual orientation or physical traits or even the attraction to the clothing normally worn by the opposite sex. Another point of common agreement is that tg people cross back and forth between the genders (as each is culturally and historically defined) and may even constitute a third gender (the andrgyne). Transgendered people seem to have a very fluid sense of gender identity (and that includes me). So far, I am with you all. But, there is another underlying point of commonality here that I want to challenge. That is, that what we are and what we do are determined in some fundamental sense by who we are "inside" of us, in our psyches.
I would like to offer the possibility for a moment that we--both as individuals and as part of the tg community and as part of our larger society--determine or draw out of our psyches certain energies, psychological tendencies, and states of mind that may otherwise lay dormant. In other words, being tg is primarily a transpersonal and social phenomenon. For example, I doubt whether there would be this many crossdressers with gender dysphoria if it had not been for the women's and gay movements; and those in turn were due to complex historical developments that sent women into the workplace and transformed the nature of authority and roles within the family. If those phenomena had not occurred we might just be a lot of unhappy people who interpreted our unhappiness as due to different things--for example, a dysfunctional childhood, rather than gender dysphoria.
So, you may ask, what's the point? The point is that we have choices to make. The first choice is to accept who we are without judgment. As a famous psychologist put it, we cannot change something about ourselves (affect its direction, shape it, transform it, etc.) without first accepting it. The second point is that WE CAN MAKE OF TRANSGENDERISM WHAT WE WILL. And what we make of it will inevitably draw upon and be a contribution to those larger developments going on all around us. So, for example, if we choose, we CAN try to create a third gender. I find that intriguing. But that entails certain limitations on being fully masculine or feminine. Or we can do something else, like viewing ourselves as variants of women or men, which in turn would require an expanded definition of what it means to be either of those. Or we can choose to "play" with gender without definition at all. And perhaps there are other choices open to us. The choice is really up to us, both individually and collectively. By creating and commiting to goals or purposes in our lives we bring into existence certain behaviors, and these behaviors modify, reinforce, and finally crystallize our goals, and pretty soon we have states of mind and identities.
For example, I used to be and still am often afraid that my "feminine side" will take over my entire psyche. That fear is usually accompanied by intense soul searching as to "who am I really"? I find satisfaction, however, when I tell myself that that is ultimately my choice, my call. My free will (though that will is not a totally self-dependent will) is involved and is ultimately the determining factor. I am still at an early stage of exploration and am open to a variety of ways of identifying myself. But, I also realize that my exploration and the choices I make are parts of a larger discussion, which this forum wonderfully facilitates.
Love to all,
Laura
It seems to me that one of the points all hold in common is that transgenderism is a state of mind, to be distinguished from sexual orientation or physical traits or even the attraction to the clothing normally worn by the opposite sex. Another point of common agreement is that tg people cross back and forth between the genders (as each is culturally and historically defined) and may even constitute a third gender (the andrgyne). Transgendered people seem to have a very fluid sense of gender identity (and that includes me). So far, I am with you all. But, there is another underlying point of commonality here that I want to challenge. That is, that what we are and what we do are determined in some fundamental sense by who we are "inside" of us, in our psyches.
I would like to offer the possibility for a moment that we--both as individuals and as part of the tg community and as part of our larger society--determine or draw out of our psyches certain energies, psychological tendencies, and states of mind that may otherwise lay dormant. In other words, being tg is primarily a transpersonal and social phenomenon. For example, I doubt whether there would be this many crossdressers with gender dysphoria if it had not been for the women's and gay movements; and those in turn were due to complex historical developments that sent women into the workplace and transformed the nature of authority and roles within the family. If those phenomena had not occurred we might just be a lot of unhappy people who interpreted our unhappiness as due to different things--for example, a dysfunctional childhood, rather than gender dysphoria.
So, you may ask, what's the point? The point is that we have choices to make. The first choice is to accept who we are without judgment. As a famous psychologist put it, we cannot change something about ourselves (affect its direction, shape it, transform it, etc.) without first accepting it. The second point is that WE CAN MAKE OF TRANSGENDERISM WHAT WE WILL. And what we make of it will inevitably draw upon and be a contribution to those larger developments going on all around us. So, for example, if we choose, we CAN try to create a third gender. I find that intriguing. But that entails certain limitations on being fully masculine or feminine. Or we can do something else, like viewing ourselves as variants of women or men, which in turn would require an expanded definition of what it means to be either of those. Or we can choose to "play" with gender without definition at all. And perhaps there are other choices open to us. The choice is really up to us, both individually and collectively. By creating and commiting to goals or purposes in our lives we bring into existence certain behaviors, and these behaviors modify, reinforce, and finally crystallize our goals, and pretty soon we have states of mind and identities.
For example, I used to be and still am often afraid that my "feminine side" will take over my entire psyche. That fear is usually accompanied by intense soul searching as to "who am I really"? I find satisfaction, however, when I tell myself that that is ultimately my choice, my call. My free will (though that will is not a totally self-dependent will) is involved and is ultimately the determining factor. I am still at an early stage of exploration and am open to a variety of ways of identifying myself. But, I also realize that my exploration and the choices I make are parts of a larger discussion, which this forum wonderfully facilitates.
Love to all,
Laura
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RikkiOfLA
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Fascinating discussion!
For me (as I describe myself), transgendered works. So does crossdresser.
Transgendered describes the raw brain material I'm given. I'm not a real manly man. (Boy, was that hard to accept, by the way. Took me six months of an illness to work through accepting it.) I am, in my psyche, both male and female. What I discovered was that the female part is more central--it includes the part that ties the other parts together. On the other hand, the male part is much more developed. It's had more opportunity, after all. For the first 45 years of my life, I tried as much as possible to live as a man.
Crossdressing describes one of the things I do with the raw material I'm given. It describes the clothes I wear. And it says things about my sexuality as well. Because for me, it's sexy to dress like a woman, I'm not interested in hormones that would dilute the fun I'm having. That doesn't mean I get aroused when I get dressed every morning. I know the difference between dressing for the bedroom and for work.
I think the most useful definition of "transgendered" is still as an umbrella term that would cover everyone in the alternative-gender world--crossdressers, transsexuals, intersexed, and so on. Because we really do have a lot in common--the resources, the language, the open-mindedness. There is a lot of strength in supporting each other. We have the questions in common, even if we don't always have the answers in common.
For me (as I describe myself), transgendered works. So does crossdresser.
Transgendered describes the raw brain material I'm given. I'm not a real manly man. (Boy, was that hard to accept, by the way. Took me six months of an illness to work through accepting it.) I am, in my psyche, both male and female. What I discovered was that the female part is more central--it includes the part that ties the other parts together. On the other hand, the male part is much more developed. It's had more opportunity, after all. For the first 45 years of my life, I tried as much as possible to live as a man.
Crossdressing describes one of the things I do with the raw material I'm given. It describes the clothes I wear. And it says things about my sexuality as well. Because for me, it's sexy to dress like a woman, I'm not interested in hormones that would dilute the fun I'm having. That doesn't mean I get aroused when I get dressed every morning. I know the difference between dressing for the bedroom and for work.
I think the most useful definition of "transgendered" is still as an umbrella term that would cover everyone in the alternative-gender world--crossdressers, transsexuals, intersexed, and so on. Because we really do have a lot in common--the resources, the language, the open-mindedness. There is a lot of strength in supporting each other. We have the questions in common, even if we don't always have the answers in common.
Love and respect,
Rikki
Rikki
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Beauty
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Hi Rikki,
I'm with you. One of the reasons I like transgendered so much is because it is an umbrella and inclusionary of lots of us. Since it is broader you don't have to worry about the TVs, CDs, TS's, or intersexed classifications.
That's because when you dress and go out this morning you'll be dressed en femme and I won't. Sorry.. that one I couldn't control.
btw, folks. . . I don't mind being called girl. I've learned that it's a term of endearment. I did have a problem with it when I first started reading boards. I still don't feel comfortable with it because I'm not a girl, but it doesn't bother me, honestly.
Beauty
I'm with you. One of the reasons I like transgendered so much is because it is an umbrella and inclusionary of lots of us. Since it is broader you don't have to worry about the TVs, CDs, TS's, or intersexed classifications.
That's because when you dress and go out this morning you'll be dressed en femme and I won't. Sorry.. that one I couldn't control. btw, folks. . . I don't mind being called girl. I've learned that it's a term of endearment. I did have a problem with it when I first started reading boards. I still don't feel comfortable with it because I'm not a girl, but it doesn't bother me, honestly.
Beauty
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Beauty
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Beauty
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I think it's totally normal for lots of CD's to be more femme than masculine.
I have felt more butch than normal because of the gaming poll I did. Most people I've polled here don't really like sports. :: gasp! ::
I agree 100% with what you said to Lisa about "keep going with wha feels good and right and wonderful to you"
Beauty
I have felt more butch than normal because of the gaming poll I did.
Most people I've polled here don't really like sports. :: gasp! :: I agree 100% with what you said to Lisa about "keep going with wha feels good and right and wonderful to you"
Beauty
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Beauty
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