Saturday night in Santa Cruz (Long, long...)

[Anita]

Hi All—
In the Bay area, Thanksgiving holiday is a signal for all weekend night life to go dormant. People go to Reno to gamble; they go to Lake Tahoe and Kirkwood to ski; they don’t hang around San Francisco.

It had been a while since my friend John and I had gone out, so I had given him a call and suggested the Saturday night after Thanksgiving. As some of you may remember, John’s mode of femme dressing is to go ‘girl’ from the waist down, and ‘guy’ above the belt. He doesn’t always get out as often as he would like, and it had been a couple of months. So he was ready to go. But go where? It was sparse rations on the club scene. The Fillmore had canceled their act. Slim’s had a Kiss tribute band as a placeholder for the usual national act. We scanned the ‘Net for a few days.

Finally John came up with an act that was happening in Santa Cruz, about 70 miles away from me. I couldn’t access the music for the group, but by that time, I didn’t care who I saw. I liked the idea of going to Santa Cruz.

It’s a resort town, on the ocean. Outside of town are the Santa Cruz mountains, a very beautiful area. Inside the town is the Boardwalk along the beachfront, a popular tourist attraction with lots of old-fashioned rides and vendors. The Giant Dipper is the sixth oldest roller coaster in the world, according to Wikipedia.

It was a beautiful day, although chilly. There was a pale sun shining over and through the cloud cover when I started to get ready. I was running behind, but we had a lot of extra time in our schedule.

I decided to go formal. I had just bought an ankle-length black dress with a slit on one side, and I loved the way it looked on Friday night at my support group. So I was going to over-dress twice in one weekend! I have a silver chain belt, and then I wore a light gold silk jacket, and set it all off with pearl earrings.

It took an hour to get to John’s house in San Jose. Dionne Warwick sang, “LA is a great big freeway,” but then, so is SJ. I guided my truck through miles of Southland expressways, and then hit the big boulevard that would take me to John’s. Early darkness, of course, but it wasn’t too challenging. I came in and said hello to John’s wife, and then we were off into the mountains.

For drinks or food, John wanted to go to what he called the Mall, which intitially puzzled me. “Mall” is American suburban sprawl; Santa Cruz is bohemian California deluxe. What it turned out to be was a delightful shopping district along a few main streets in town. The infamous Loma Prieta earthquake in ’89 had devastated downtown Santa Cruz, and so the city decided to do a phoenix act and re-build it from the ground up.

They did a good job. It was like Main Street Disneyland down there, all lit up for Christmas, and many, many people crowding the streets. John parked a few blocks away, and we begin moving toward the lights.

John had on a custom gray leather miniskirt, nice hose, and black heels. That’s the ‘gal half.’ Topside he had a light-colored shirt with a collar, and his trimmed moustache and male haircut. No forms, makeup, earrings—that’s not John’s style. So there’s no question of ‘passing’ when we’re out. It’s more about dignity, ease in being, and an ability for us to come up with one-liners when needed.

We joined the crowds, moving along in the cold. I used to chop wood in Ohio when it was ten below, but I’ve lost all my cold weather genes since I came to California. I was feeling the cold through my black leather jacket and my silk jacket. John said he didn’t feel it; he was running on adrenaline from the excitement of being out once again.

We seemed to blend in as we strolled along. Early on in my outings, I broke myself of the habit of ‘scanning’ passerbys to see if they were noticing me. Scanning is something that young teenage girls do, or something that provocatively dressed older women do. Most women don’t scan, even though they are alert to their surroundings. Beginning CDs scan, because they’re on hyper-alert and wondering how well they’re doing. It’s a survival tactic the first few times out, but it’s better to break the habit as soon as possible. The less I scan, the longer I can go along unnoticed.

John may have been fueled by adrenaline, but I needed food. We chose an upscale Mexican restaurant that John was familiar with, and it was packed, with at least ten people on the waiting benches. But…we found out we could sit at the bar and order, and that was fine with us.

I didn’t have to scan to know that we were causing quite a stir as we strolled through the high-ceiling dining room! I was having a ball; I did my best Queen Elizabeth imitation—I don’t know how John handled it. We found two seats right away, and soon had some chips and drinks going. The Chili rellano was a little on the mild side, but it was still great—I was hungry.

There was no real debate about which restroom to go for. This wasn’t some truckstop in Wyoming—I wasn’t going to get hassled in the men’s room. I did choose a time when I thought there’d be the least traffic in there, and I was correct. John wasn’t quite so lucky—there was practically a party going on in there after he went in. I could see the door opening and closing, and guys standing in line. But no one said anything, and we paid the bill and went on out. John stands about 6’2” and has broad shoulders—no one’s going to mess with him if they can help it.

We passed one clothing store that I suddenly had to go into. I thought I saw something that appealed to me; whatever it was, I never saw it again. But John found a pleated skirt that he really liked, and I persuaded him to try it on. It worked for him, and so we scored on the shopping hunt.

As we walked along on our way to the car, I turned to John and said, “You know, I still get surprised by how easy this can be.” Both John and I started going out before we had Internet access. We were out there re-inventing the wheel, wondering how people were going to react to us. And of course, John was playing a higher-risk game than I was. Partial femme is a lot harder than full femme.

At the same time that I describe it as ‘easy,’ I also know that there are a LOT of factors that have gone into making it that way for me. How many of them are general, and how many of them are specific? That’s always a question. From what I read, though, it seems like a majority of us on this forum find that it is not a big deal to be out there as TG women.

I know that in my case, I took my performing abilities into account. As I said in another post, I was determined that the general public was going to “buy” my act, and they did. It doesn’t mean that I control the public—after all, people still heckle comedians. It does mean that I control my reactions to them, though, and no one is going to stop me from doing my ‘act.’ I am extremely grateful that I’ve been able to stand behind this vow. In the very beginnning, I had no idea whether I could do it. I also cannot tell anyone else how they’ll fare when they walk out there for the first time. It seems a little like walking on hot coals; it’s a leap of faith, and there’s only so much thinking you can do about it. Thankfully, it appears that we can do this safely, for the most part. There’s no guarantees, but the more of us that do it, the more territory we claim.

We drove over to the club, which was called Moe’s Alley. As much as I’ve gone out, it is still a challenge to make that first entrance sometimes. It’s the unknown—who’s in this bar? What’s going on there, right now? I was gearing up for the intial encounters as we walked across the street in front of the club.

The door guy was a little stiff in his reaction, and the price was very stiff—twenty dollars. It wasn’t a deal-breaker, but it surprised me; fifteen would have been more like it. But as soon as we walked in, I felt OK. Even though we were spotlighted on an empty dance floor, with people sitting all around, I didn’t feel a strong reaction coming back at me. We got our drinks and waited for the band.

The band was great. It was a seven-piece outfit called Mumbo Gumbo, and it had been around for twenty years. ( A dollar per year on the cover charge?) Two women fronted the band, and one played different instruments throughout the night. The other played acoustic guitar. The five guys played sax, keyboard (and accordian), guitar, bass, and drums.

It was rhythm and blues, mainly. John was reminded of Little Feat. I heard some Al Green and Dr. John in there. Sorry that I can’t come up with more modern references—maybe some Dave Matthews? What I enjoyed in the beginning was the band’s show—their ways of moving around, and how they looked and smiled at each other.

That kind of music is not really my style. I can appreciate it on a mental level, but on an emotional level, I need more fire in the guitar and drums. Still, as the night went on, they charmed me with the music, too. Both the musicians and the crowd were having such a good time! People just stayed on the dance floor for song after song. John and I stood on the dance floor near the middle, and watched the first set from there.

I’ll try to move this narrative along at a faster pace, but there was a lot going on at this point! First off, I do like to dance, and liked watching others. But I was a little wistful that no one was going to be asking me, and I didn’t see myself asking others, either. I find that I like male/female ‘balance,’ and that means that I’m not good at being a lesbian—I probably wasn’t going to ask a gal to dance. I knew no guy was going to ask me, either, but that’s who I would have been more comfortable with, dressed as I was. There just has to be a ‘girl’ in the equation. Either I’ll be the girl, or you be the girl, but we need to have one there!

If both of us are being ‘girls,’ then I’ll probably move over into guy mode, in my mind. It just seems like I automatically adjust that way, and I’ve heard other TG gals talk about that. One said it was why she didn’t get attracted to other TGs. She always ended up being the least passable, so she got stuck being the ‘guy,’ even though she was dressed!

I also noticed the men who were there. They were mostly middle-aged, and seemed friendly enough. Most of them were coupled. If I’m around young, macho guys who are flooded with testosterone, I don’t usually see much gender suppression. They look at me with curiosity, and shrug their shoulders. I look at them and smile; I see there's little questioning going on inside them.

But middle-age guys are more vulnerable to suppressed gender feelings in themselves. They may not know exactly what they’re feeling, but they know that something is stirring inside. They don’t necessarily react to me, or look uncomfortable with me being there. But it’s like I've developed an X-ray vision for gender; I can almost sense the degree of gender discomfort or longing in some men, when I see them pass by.

I have to let it go by in my mind, and trust that they’ll find their own way to deal with it, if it really is there. Who knows? I’m certainly not going to go up and ask them! I would hope that seeing us there is a small beacon to them. They may not consciously need it now, but they can remember it in years to come, when the distress is becoming known.

But as the evening wore on, this observation lessened. Drinks were being consumed, the music got livelier, and the dance floor got more crowded. So people were losing themselves in the scene, and forgetting about ongoing concerns. That’s how it should be, and I was happy to do the same.

For the second set, we sat right behind the drummer, on a platform with tables and chairs. That was fun; I could watch all the performers closely, and see them going about the ‘chores’ that one has to do during shows. Once, the drummer reached over to tweak the sound system with his right hand, while keeping everything else going with just his left.

The guitarist had more electronic effects than I’d seen in a long time—it was like a Guitar Center showcase display up there. He danced around on the pedals with his feet, turning this one on, this one off. It was like ballet. The one woman changed instruments with every song; alto sax, acoustic guitar, or washboard being the main ones. There were lots of little moves to watch as she took care of all that.

There was one moment where what they were playing sparked something in me, and I heard my own music playing in my head, very powerfully. Right at the point the guitarist looked straight at me, and we smiled at each other. He might have gotten a little jolt from my glance, because the sound in my head was really affecting me.

As they went into the last song of the evening, the lead vocalist woman said, “C’mon, everybody dance!” and I went out there, too. It felt good to be dancing, and the band begin to pick up on the extra energy we were all putting out. I was moving pretty well for a dancer in a floor-length dress, and the band members smiled at that. They couldn’t quite figure out where I was coming from if they just saw me sitting back in a chair, but dance moves are a language they could understand.

At the end, John and I went up and thanked them, and we shook hands with the four who were still up there—the guitarist, bassist, sax player, and the acoustic guitar woman. Then we headed out for the drive home. It was 3am before I got back to Oakland, and I was one tired club hopper.

[Virginia]

What a great evening!!!

I am glad that you observe a bit of what is going on around you! I find that thrilling just to see if I create any reaction, but like you, little if any.

As for the dancing, I guess you have to be "read" to not get asked. What I have found is that usually, lesbians are travelling in pairs + upto 4 or 5 as straight girls would at a club. The gay guys are usually the best at "reading" us and they, first, have no interest in dancing with a girl = GG and since they usually read us, they again are not interested in dancing with T-girls (in most instances). If you remember the formal dinner/dance that I went to I got asked on several occassions, but that was a different atmosphere than you were in.

I guess I expect too much from Californians in their acceptance of someone outside the norm, but you did have a good time and did not get "hassled" so to speak. I guess where "we" would get into trouble is reacting to their reaction.

Thanks for the "night-out" - I enjoy reading my sisters adventures too!!

Love,

Virginia

[SilverLady(SO)]

Hi, Anita -

I was running behind, but we had a lot of extra time in our schedule.

Sorry about that, sweetie . . . but, you know how it is when we girls get to talking on the phone . . . and it was a mere 2.5 hours this time!!

Glad to read about your girls' night out . . . you have a way with writing, I could easily picture it all, and I so enjoyed experiencing it all with you! You are right, most adult GG's don't scan the crowds, but we're usually pretty much aware of where we are and what's going on around us . . . that's a built-in self-defense mechanism, and mine is always in the 'on' mode.

Good luck this week . . . !

Love & Hugs!!

- SL

[Kendra Lynn]

Dear Anita: Great story! Sounds like you and John had a nice mini-vacation.
I'm a music journalist, so I enjoyed your description of the music and venue.
I've had experiences that border on what you described. "Hippie cheerleader" went out almost every night during "Halloween week" this year, and that included visits to two places where live music was playing.
One place was a Latin restaurant a short walk from my apartment. I wore an outfit that was loosely inspired by my old high school and a GG came up to me and asked if I had gone to that school! Turned out she had also-- that was definitely a "Kodak moment." Two GG's from my building also showed up and I talked with them, along with some of the other folks who were there. No one asked me to dance, I just enjoyed getting up, moving around, and waving pompons to the dynamic sounds of Afro-funk band CHOPTEETH (big band with full horn section). In "drab" I tend to be a wallflower, but I have discovered that dancing in a skirt is fun! (and waving pompons makes the whole experience even more fun!!)
Now the other experience (at a different place on another night)) did include a man asking me to dance. I was confused, but accepted. I kept wondering if he really knew what was going on. I only did one dance with him. I had never seen him before and did not know him. I was not sure what he wanted or expected, and did not really want to engage him. I guess I'll say that experience was positive in the sense that someone felt I looked good enough, but it was a negative in that I'm really not sure how to handle that situation.
Several years ago, I met a political activist I knew at a Halloween week event and asked him for a ride home. I was dressed as the cheerleader and we stopped at a 17 th Street (DC) restaurant on the way home. We were both hungry. I will admit that I was tempted to "act" the "girl" part a little bit. (but I know intellectually that is not a good idea).
Anyhow "cheerleader" may be at a club Saturday night before the TGEA (Transgender Education Association) annual holiday gala. A band I know is doing a CD release party that same night and they have met "hippie cheerleader" before. Since the club is a few METRO stops away from the nearest stop to the hotel hosting the gala, and I do not want to er... "drag" another outfit with me-- -- it looks like "hippie cheerleader" will be making her holiday gala debut. (I'll get there in time for the DJ/dance part and look forward to jumping around and waving pompons!).
So I may be in for a whole bunch of interesting experiences this Saturday!!
One other interesting thing about all this-- I keep meeting GG's while dressed in my cheerleader stuff. Happened again Halloween night! I've begun an e-mail correspondence with that person and hope to see her again.
Best wishes to all for the holiday season!
Peace-- Kendra Lynn (hippie cheerleader).

[JB]

Hi Everyone,

I'm John, Anita's friend and the guy who accompanied her to Santa Cruz. Her write up is terrific, and it very much captures the fun that we had that evening. There isn't much to add, but I'll throw in a few things from my perspective.

As Anita wrote, I dress femme from the waist down and regular guy from the waist up. I chose light colors this time, a blue sweater and my short grey leather skirt. My pantyhose was nude and sheer, giving a sleek bare look to my legs. My jacket and 3" heels were the only dark items. As you've already read, there is no hiding my male gender. I've posted a picture in the gallery, and you'll see that even though I change genders at the waist, the dressy look I go for is reasonably coordinated and complete.

Of course we attracted attention, but that's to be expected. People are usually surprised that even though my overall look is very femme, I make no attempt to disguise my gender or identity. As I pulled up to the curb and parked my 1988 5.0 liter Mustang, a couple was passing by. What they saw getting out of the car must have been an unexpected sight to them.

The bathroom situation that Anita described was indeed amusing. I went to the men's room about 15 minutes after she did and just as she wrote, a line of "full" bladders formed up very quickly. I used a stall, but I stand to relieve myself 'cause it just seems easier and more sanitary that way. I'll use a urinal if it has privacy panels of some sort, otherwise I wait my turn for something with a door.

The only embarassment I experienced in the men's room came at the end. After washing and a paper towel, my hands are still a bit damp, and they have the perfect amount of tactile friction to pull up pantyhose without having to grab it with your fingers. I just spread my hands out, and with flat palms and fingers I can easily pull up any sag that may have accumulated. It's kind of emabarassing to do this when people are looking, but it's kind of enjoyable and right on too.

If you're wearing pantyhose or stockings, you have to pull out the sag from time to time, no? If not it the bathroom, where else? Yeah, I could do it in the stall but then my hands wouldn't be damp enough to use the method I just described. I'd have to use fingertips, and that always introduces the risk of snags and runs. So, I do what I have to do after washing up and think to myself, "OK, this is just part of the job!"

Oh yeah, I ended up buying a skirt in the store that we visited. Just off the rack I didn't think it would work, but Anita prevailed upon me to try it on. When I came out of the change room, a young woman saw me and said it looked nice. That was enough to close the deal. I posted a picture of this outfit in the gallery. Thanks Anita!!

Anyway, we had a great time. Anita's a wonderful person, and we'll be out again sooner than later.

Best Wishes,

John

[Virginia]

HI John,

Thanks for visiting with us and of course for trying to keep up with our very own "wild woman" Anita! I would expect she is a handful out in public.

I have to say I admire your, your, well, courage to be yourself as you see yourself.

I don't want to embarrass you or make you mad at me but I would bet most of my sisters who read this would be asking the same questions.
I don't know that you analyse yourself but your story just begs the question WHY?

If I am not asking to personal a question, what do you think or feel that prompts you to go out and present the way that you do? Is it just something that you want or feel you must do? Are you thinking of being perhaps a trend setter? Are you trying set a style? Is it an "in your face" approach to the "great unwashed?"

It is just interesting and if you have time to respond I am sure a lot of us would like to know just "where you are coming from" in this.

If you want to tell me it is none of my business that is just as well to!

Take care of our girl, Anita

Virginia

[JB]

Greetings,

First of all, please don't worry about my being offended. It's perfectly ok for you to ask the questions you did, and to be curious about my half & half style of dressing.

All I can say is that it works for me! When I dress femme I still feel very much like a guy, yet I so much enjoy the feminine feeling that I get from wearing a skirt, pantyhose and heels. Whether it's a careful dainty walk in high heels or crossing my legs modestly when I sit down in a short skirt, it just makes me feel extra alive and good. When I'm dressed femme, even mundane chores like mailing a letter or going to the bank become fun things to do.

Another thing is that when I'm femme, women young, middle-aged and old seem especially taken and interested in me. It appears that wearing a skirt and heels buys instant credibility and trust with them, even in spite of my mustache and deep voice. And I like to be out there, seeing and being seen. Don't know how else I can describe it.

Does this help you to understand more? Let me know, as I'm always glad to chat.

Best Regards,

John

[KimberlyS]

John, thanks for posting your view to your outing with Anita. I enjoyed both of your views. It is so refreshing to here someone out and about enfemme yet not passing. This is really more my style of CDing but in my current life situation it would not work for me.

... about my half & half style of dressing.
All I can say is that it works for me! When I dress femme I still feel very much like a guy, yet I so much enjoy the feminine feeling that I get from wearing a skirt, pantyhose and heels. Whether it's a careful dainty walk in high heels or crossing my legs modestly when I sit down in a short skirt, it just makes me feel extra alive and good. When I'm dressed femme, even mundane chores like mailing a letter or going to the bank become fun things to do.

John, I understand when you say this "works for me". We each need to be who we feel we are. I do not consider my wanted way of CDing a half and half mode. I consider it just being who I am. Like you I personally do not really want to hide my male self. As I am a male and alway feel male no mater how I am dressed. To me I am just wearing the clothes of my choice.

Virgina, I compare the need to look male and dress more feminine to the need of other CD/TG's to dress, look, and/or be more feminine. It comes from within.

KimberlyS-CD
joe in a skirt

[Virginia]

Thanks for the replies, uh? lady or/and gentleman. Kimberly sort of says it all for most of us and the operative word is "balance." If we accept our "gift" no matter how we express it and are happy with the results, then I guess you can say we have found our balance. Of course extenuating circumstances can cause us to reassess our "balance" and hopefully, adjust accordingly. For some that reassessment is much more difficult than they would expect. I will say this, that with the internet and forums such as this fewer and fewer of us are falling off the tightrope and that is a good thing!!!

I would reiterate my "balance." When Virginia gets dressed to go out in public it is done with 110% effort to "pass" if you will, not necessarily for the public's benefit however, but for her benefit. She is a lady, she will dress as a lady, act as a lady and damn sure expects to be treated as a lady!!!!

Other, well, most of the time when her alter-ego goes out, it is in androgynous clothing, women's slacks, "feminine style" blouse or sweater, clear nail gloss, a bit of make-up. Now that it is winter, I have several feminine coats that I wear, one is a long, black fur with a hood that sure keeps me warm and I really don't care if someone thinks, hey that guy is wearing a girly coat. I am warm and that is what counts to me.

JB, I think it is great and I am proud and happy for you. It is evidently not (as we define it here) a crossdressing "thing" or that you are TG or TS, it is just what you are content to do?! Of course that does beg the question, "what prompted you to start?" Most guys would not just wake up one morning thinking, "gee, I would be much more comfortable in a tight mini-skirt and high heels?"

This is just too cool!!!

Love,

Virginia

[Anita]

I'm glad John got to chime in on this account, and also explain some of where he's coming from when he goes out. Thanks to all of you for the replies.

Virginia wrote:

As for the dancing, I guess you have to be "read" to not get asked.

In Berkeley or San Francisco, someone might have asked me. I really didn't feel like putting anyone else on the spot by asking them, and especially not a guy. But I could have gone out there solo long before I did, and someone might have picked up on that, and joined me. One woman did, very briefly.

John wrote:

Another thing is that when I'm femme, women young, middle-aged and old seem especially taken and interested in me. It appears that wearing a skirt and heels buys instant credibility and trust with them, even in spite of my mustache and deep voice. And I like to be out there, seeing and being seen. Don't know how else I can describe it.

This is interesting to me, John, because I have certainly noticed this effect when I'm dressed fully. At what point does this acceptance begin? One of the reasons I became a TG woman was because I kept "hitting the wall" that keeps women and men segregated in most social settings. Even as a so-called "sensitive man," I couldn't get around that barrier. Believe me, I tried many ways of doing it, too. None of them worked for me, as long as I stayed in male mode.

As much as women might like my male persona, there was still a wall between us that I wanted to break down. At the same time, I didn't want to be inappropriate, and we all know how easy it is to cross THAT line. Becoming another type of woman suddenly solved many of these problems in an astonishing way. I say 'astonishing' because no one ever told me that it was possible to do this. Suddenly women were talking to me in a totally different way, in ordinary day-to-day situations. I'm glad that you get this effect going, even though you're not presenting a total female look.

Kendra wrote:

Now the other experience (at a different place on another night)) did include a man asking me to dance. I was confused, but accepted. I kept wondering if he really knew what was going on.(snip) I guess I'll say that experience was positive in the sense that someone felt I looked good enough, but it was a negative in that I'm really not sure how to handle that situation.

That can be very confusing, Kendra. A few times I've wondered if someone 'knew,' and if they didn't, how to tell them in a way that's not clumsy and awkward for everyone concerned. I did figure out early on how I felt about the attention from men, and that helped a lot. None of the rules are written in stone, but I at least prepared myself for knowing what I'd do in different situations.

Kenra wrote:

I will admit that I was tempted to "act" the "girl" part a little bit. (but I know intellectually that is not a good idea).

That's true--you don't want to put out cues that you're not prepared to follow through on. I was all too aware of how frustrating that is to men, having experienced it enough times in my own life as a man.

Since I found that I really did want to act out the "girl" part, I decided how far I was comfortable in going with it, and then I had a set of guidelines in place. Like any other woman, sometimes I get into situations where I'm not comfortable with the favors I'm being given, because I know that I don't want to follow through. It is very tricky working through this, and my mother never taught me how to deal with it--she didn't know she had a fourth 'daughter' to educate.

SilverLady wrote:

Sorry about that, sweetie . . . but, you know how it is when we girls get to talking on the phone . . . and it was a mere 2.5 hours this time!!

Ah, SL, it wasn't all you. My landlord lives in the upstairs part of the house, and suddenly he wanted help mounting his spare tire/bicycle rack. I said sure, and then realized I was giving away time that I didn't have to give. But we got the task done, and I don't think John was sitting there tapping his fingers (or tapping his heels) for too long.


Kimberly wrote:

I do not consider my wanted way of CDing a half and half mode. I consider it just being who I am. Like you I personally do not really want to hide my male self. As I am a male and alway feel male no mater how I am dressed. To me I am just wearing the clothes of my choice.

I'm sitting here asking myself: if I could dress any way I wanted, would I go out with just female clothing, and no other cues?

While what I do seems radical and outside the norm, I still follow certain 'rules' in doing this. I always wear breast forms, for instance. No matter how androgynous my clothes may be, the forms say that I'm intending to be taken as female. Is this just something I do to make other people more comfortable, or is it something I need to do for myself? I'd say the latter, but it's hard to know for sure. At any rate, what you and John are doing is more radical than what I do, and would appear to take more 'work' to pull off.