Hi Virginia,
In 1968 I believe it was, the Supreme Court ruled that transsexuals could not be denied the right to dress how they please based on laws prohibiting wearing a disguise. Prior to this ruling, it was against the law to crossdress in most states, under this type of law.
It is my guess that this supreme court ruling would hold true for any law about disguises. Are women required to remove their makeup before they take a picture for their license? I am pretty sure that there can be no law telling any person they don't meet gender stereotypes.
A drivers license is a license to drive and only later became proof of identification. But if the person in the picture is the person on the license, no fraud is committed. As long as my license has my legal name, and it's a picture of me. It's all legal. I mean, are we going to check every woman and make sure they are not wearing a wig? Or what about men with toupes?
These practices are discrimination, plain and simple. In my mind, they can not be justified. There is no reason to not allow a person to dress how they please. I mean, now the state can tell us how to dress? That seems backwards to me. Let's go forward instead.
My license has my legal name. That is all anyone needs to know. How I appear is only my business.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Am I wrong!?
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Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
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It seems that "Equity Virginia" is going to try and either obtain an "audience" with the DMV commissioners or at least get the topic of TG/TS on the agenda, but they feel it will be a struggle. As with most bureauacratic groups, no one want to take responsibility for anything. They seem to be content to "pass the buck" to some lowly, minimum wage clerk at any given DMV office to decide "our" fate based on their "understanding" of the rules!
Elizabeth raises some interesting questions about the toupee or a woman wearing a wig, or what if she dyes her hair or shortly after the picture is taken she gets her hair cut, or he grows or removes facial hair????? Heaven forbid, weight loss or gain can also seriously alter one's appearance. The mind boggles!!!! Elizabeth is right also about the license initially being just for the priviledge to drive a car, it was not intended to be as a form of identification but has certainly evolved to such!!! Try to get past the TSA and board a plane!!!! Then erupts the question of the Passport ID and the above listed potential alterations to one's appearance over a 10 year time span!?
As an aside - What about an illegal alien? Let's say the state - any state that will issue a driver's license to an illegal, what address do they use?
Can they use were they live in the US, remember, they are here illegally and would that not be considered fradulent? Would they use their "home" address? i.e., some backstreet in Mexico City?
If Virginia decides to go to the DMV for a new license to get her current address put on the actual license itself and get rid of the little card I have and I pass well enough upto the point of the clerk questioning only the fact that the name does not match the sex of the person making the request, is it not arguable that that is the name my parents chose and it would seem to be none of their business what my parents chose to name me? This clerk, a minimum wage DMV employee can choose to approve the picture or not!!!!!!
I think that tomorrow I am going to contact the Va. Highway Patrol and see how they legally handle someone that they stop and the picture on the license in no way reflects the appearance of the person operating the vehicle. A 280 pound, full beard, with masses of curly hair and a red plaid shirt when the picture was taken is now a svelt 160, shaved, short hair in a three piece suit and has had plastic surgery to remove a large scar from their cheek that was very evident in the DMV picture. The cop says, "this does not look anything like you!" Do you have to answer with a string of explanations which the cop may or may not believe. Now put that situation on one of us, in a mini-skirt?
Ergo the TS/TG marker on the license removes any misconceptions does it not!
Virginia
Elizabeth raises some interesting questions about the toupee or a woman wearing a wig, or what if she dyes her hair or shortly after the picture is taken she gets her hair cut, or he grows or removes facial hair????? Heaven forbid, weight loss or gain can also seriously alter one's appearance. The mind boggles!!!! Elizabeth is right also about the license initially being just for the priviledge to drive a car, it was not intended to be as a form of identification but has certainly evolved to such!!! Try to get past the TSA and board a plane!!!! Then erupts the question of the Passport ID and the above listed potential alterations to one's appearance over a 10 year time span!?
As an aside - What about an illegal alien? Let's say the state - any state that will issue a driver's license to an illegal, what address do they use?
Can they use were they live in the US, remember, they are here illegally and would that not be considered fradulent? Would they use their "home" address? i.e., some backstreet in Mexico City?
If Virginia decides to go to the DMV for a new license to get her current address put on the actual license itself and get rid of the little card I have and I pass well enough upto the point of the clerk questioning only the fact that the name does not match the sex of the person making the request, is it not arguable that that is the name my parents chose and it would seem to be none of their business what my parents chose to name me? This clerk, a minimum wage DMV employee can choose to approve the picture or not!!!!!!
I think that tomorrow I am going to contact the Va. Highway Patrol and see how they legally handle someone that they stop and the picture on the license in no way reflects the appearance of the person operating the vehicle. A 280 pound, full beard, with masses of curly hair and a red plaid shirt when the picture was taken is now a svelt 160, shaved, short hair in a three piece suit and has had plastic surgery to remove a large scar from their cheek that was very evident in the DMV picture. The cop says, "this does not look anything like you!" Do you have to answer with a string of explanations which the cop may or may not believe. Now put that situation on one of us, in a mini-skirt?
Ergo the TS/TG marker on the license removes any misconceptions does it not!Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
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Virginia,
I think it's dangerous to put a label on us. I personally am against being labeled. I don't want to be TS or TG. I want to be a girl. It's not my problem whether or not some DMV employee approves my name. If it were me, I would find out what the law says. I find it almost impossible to believe that a DMV employee, a civil servant, gets to decide who is and who is not in a disguise. There has to be a legal mechanism to challenge this.
In my case, this is how I look. Homeland Security said my pictures I sent them had to be what I looked like within the last 30 days. They know I am male. They know I look like a woman. No one ever suggested I was wearing a disguise. I am telling you, the Supreme Court outlawed that kind of interpretation a long time ago. Transgendered people are not in disguise, as a matter of law. That is what the Supreme Court said.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I think it's dangerous to put a label on us. I personally am against being labeled. I don't want to be TS or TG. I want to be a girl. It's not my problem whether or not some DMV employee approves my name. If it were me, I would find out what the law says. I find it almost impossible to believe that a DMV employee, a civil servant, gets to decide who is and who is not in a disguise. There has to be a legal mechanism to challenge this.
In my case, this is how I look. Homeland Security said my pictures I sent them had to be what I looked like within the last 30 days. They know I am male. They know I look like a woman. No one ever suggested I was wearing a disguise. I am telling you, the Supreme Court outlawed that kind of interpretation a long time ago. Transgendered people are not in disguise, as a matter of law. That is what the Supreme Court said.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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Anita
- Miss Diamond Goddess
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Hi All--
It's the marker that's the real problem here. Some states are more liberal about the appearance of the picture, but I don't think any state will let you choose whether you have an "m" or an "f" on your primary license. (As noted, some will let you have a separate ID).
Society remains very interested in whether a person is male or female, and that is probably not going to change any time soon. I would certainly welcome a "tg/ts" designation. It would not take away your right to have an "f", Elizabeth, but it would make life easier for me.
One issue here is that yes, people are beginning to recognize that there is an extreme group of transgender people who are willing to 'go all the way' to change their gender, and that includes surgery. Society is just beginning to say, "OK, that's legit. You can change genders." The so-called "classic transsexuals" are being recognized.
The rest of us, somewhere in the middle of the TG spectrum, are seen as being frivilous when we want our appearance to match our feelings. Society is saying, "If you don't have enough committment to do the surgery, then shut up about it, already."
It's still very black-and-white. At least our sisters that truly need fulltime status are getting it a little easier. For the rest of us, it's an uphill battle.
It's the marker that's the real problem here. Some states are more liberal about the appearance of the picture, but I don't think any state will let you choose whether you have an "m" or an "f" on your primary license. (As noted, some will let you have a separate ID).
Society remains very interested in whether a person is male or female, and that is probably not going to change any time soon. I would certainly welcome a "tg/ts" designation. It would not take away your right to have an "f", Elizabeth, but it would make life easier for me.
One issue here is that yes, people are beginning to recognize that there is an extreme group of transgender people who are willing to 'go all the way' to change their gender, and that includes surgery. Society is just beginning to say, "OK, that's legit. You can change genders." The so-called "classic transsexuals" are being recognized.
The rest of us, somewhere in the middle of the TG spectrum, are seen as being frivilous when we want our appearance to match our feelings. Society is saying, "If you don't have enough committment to do the surgery, then shut up about it, already."
It's still very black-and-white. At least our sisters that truly need fulltime status are getting it a little easier. For the rest of us, it's an uphill battle.
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Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1878
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 3:02 am
Hi Anita,
I guess what I am saying is that I don't see where in proving who I am, I have any obligation to tell anyone my gender. As long as I am who I say I am. If I am the person on my license, then what is the problem? When does anyone really need to know what is between my legs? Why is that anyone's business? It's not the person's business who is checking if I am who I say I am, whether or not I have a penis or vagina.
No one needs to know if I am TG or TS or a boy or girl or gay or straight or bi. I mean is that next? Then we could put religion on there too. And that you dye your hair. Or perhaps you shave you chest, that could hide who you are!
My point is that it's unnecessary. It's about a person being who they legally are. That's it. What I look like is no one's business but my own. If the state gets the right to tell me how I can appear, then they in effect are saying whether or not they approve of TS or TG. In the case of Virginia, they apparently do not. I just don't see how it can be constitutional. It's saying that people have to live my sexual and gender stereotypes.
If a cop pulls you over and you are dressed and your license is in drab, you are not going to match your ID. But lots of people don't match their ID. They dye their hair, they gain or lose weight. They have plastic surgery. But as long as the name on the license is them, no one says, "oh, you have to remove your breast implants for your picture, that is not you".
It's the same for us. If we want a female identity, that is not ones business. I don't see how it is ever important for anyone to know our true body parts. A cop don't need to know I am TG or TS. Neither does the TSA, the NSA or anyone else including the clerk at the grocery store. It has nothing to do with who I am. It's that simple. I don't think we should be settling for some marker in lieu of actual freedom. We should be allowed to be who we are without getting permission from the government.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I guess what I am saying is that I don't see where in proving who I am, I have any obligation to tell anyone my gender. As long as I am who I say I am. If I am the person on my license, then what is the problem? When does anyone really need to know what is between my legs? Why is that anyone's business? It's not the person's business who is checking if I am who I say I am, whether or not I have a penis or vagina.
No one needs to know if I am TG or TS or a boy or girl or gay or straight or bi. I mean is that next? Then we could put religion on there too. And that you dye your hair. Or perhaps you shave you chest, that could hide who you are!
My point is that it's unnecessary. It's about a person being who they legally are. That's it. What I look like is no one's business but my own. If the state gets the right to tell me how I can appear, then they in effect are saying whether or not they approve of TS or TG. In the case of Virginia, they apparently do not. I just don't see how it can be constitutional. It's saying that people have to live my sexual and gender stereotypes.
If a cop pulls you over and you are dressed and your license is in drab, you are not going to match your ID. But lots of people don't match their ID. They dye their hair, they gain or lose weight. They have plastic surgery. But as long as the name on the license is them, no one says, "oh, you have to remove your breast implants for your picture, that is not you".
It's the same for us. If we want a female identity, that is not ones business. I don't see how it is ever important for anyone to know our true body parts. A cop don't need to know I am TG or TS. Neither does the TSA, the NSA or anyone else including the clerk at the grocery store. It has nothing to do with who I am. It's that simple. I don't think we should be settling for some marker in lieu of actual freedom. We should be allowed to be who we are without getting permission from the government.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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CharLee
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