Topic of the Week: Excerpt Discussion

[KimberlyS]

.....they are not trying to pass as men.

Many of us CDers are not trying to pass as women either. We are trying to protect our male identity. We also to not have the freedom to wear very feminine looking clothes as a man. As that would compromise our families, jobs, friends, and much of our lives. A woman wearing male clothes does not have these affects.

... Most women who wear male clothing are not trying to be men, nor to imitate men personally or professionally, nor do they expect to be mistaken for men.

The reason women wear pants is mainly comfort and convenience. Pants are practical in all types of weather and don't make women physically vulnerable or encourage sexual harassment, as certain styles of feminine clothes do. More significantly, a woman putting on a man's clothes is, in a sense, putting on male power status,

I like the contradiction here. Woman are not trying to be men. But later states they are trying to have the male "power status". In other words emulate or fit into that male roll. I think this is true for many of us on the MTF side. We are not trying to be woman but fit into the female roll instead of the male power status roll. I truly wonder how many MTF cders are working hard at their femme image to look like a woman just to hide their male identity and the fact that they are male so they do not have to deal with any questions that may come up. I wonder if it was acceptable to be a CDer if many would allow their male self to show through.

[Jaye]

I don't know about the rest here, but I have no power, masculine or otherwise. I am a free spirit in a world where people are increasingly being forced to conform to some standard or other. I am a libertarian living in a country that is gradually taking away my freedoms and those of others. I am an atheist who grew up believing in a land that I thought guaranteed the freedom to believe, or not, as I wished, but is gradually falling under the dominion of Christian fundamentalists who would just as soon put me to the sword, if they could. What power do I have? I could conform, if I didn't care for my spirit. I could stand tall and take up their various banners, mouth their empty words and fall into line. But I won't. I also resent being lumped in with "exhibitionists".

[Anita]

Our gender non-comformity does not directly challenge the male power base. It has an influence in the same way that the Dalai Lama's pacifism has had an influence. The Dalai Lama and his followers could not go up against an army one-on-one, and yet his teachings and his influence do challenge that army.

I hope that someday Janice Raymond can acknowledge that trangenderism has many phases, and that many of us start out acting out male-driven fantasies. I don't react to her anger as strongly as I used to do. I see that I'm fairly happy doing what I do. Ms. Raymond can assign all sorts of motives and labels to it, and it doesn't change the bottom line--it works for me, and I don't appear to be hurting anyone.

Janice Raymond appears to want to insist that no matter what we do as TG people, our allegiance and our influence will always be tilted to the male side of our nature. Her earlier book, The Transsexual Empire , certainly read that way. I would hope that this book, copyright 1996, acknowledges that this is only one aspect of transgenderism, and not the whole culture. We have been socialized as males; to separate from our upbringing is a desirable goal for lots of TG women, but it's an ideal that can fall short.

One of my customers was a feminist scholar at U.C. Berkeley, and it turned out that she had been an editor for The Transsexual Empire. (I read this in the book; it didn't come up in conversation.) She and I always had a pleasant relationship, and she seemed OK with my musical venture into genderland. It would be interesting to discuss this type of material with her someday.

[CJ]

Hi all,

A few responses here already, all within a day. Cool.

My own take on the kind of viewpoint expressed by Janice Raymond is that I'm slightly uncomfortable with any perspective that completely eclipses the personal and psychological at the expense of the social and political (as hers does) or one that does the opposite. There must be a middle ground somewhere that takes many aspects of both the personal and the social into consideration when discussing these things.

As one of my feminist friends once said, "everything is political, and it's all about power--even personal relationships." I disagree. As I disagree with Janice Raymond's take on gender, however forceful some of her points may be. I do not limit myself--I refuse to limit myself--to the fact that I'm a crossdresser any more than I limit myself to the fact that I'm a white male (albeit not a conservative one ). I'm sure Ms. Raymond would argue that it's easier for someone who's (purportedly) politically empowered to say that he is not limited in his social self-definition than it is for someone who lacks such power (or who's robbed of such power). But I stand by my statement. Empowerment--political or otherwise--is not something you wait for others to give you; it's something you give to yourself... even in the face of an alleged powerlessness.

As a white male, it's true that I belong to a social group that, as things stand, has dibs on the creation of a given dominant social ideology (whatever ideology that may be), but it's false that I must necessarily, as an individual, subscribe to that ideology. Ms. Raymond, both in this article and in her previously published Transsexual Empire (1974), argues that transgender males do nothing to challenge the nature of gender roles and expectations in a male-dominated culture. While I can agree with this, in principle, I'm left to wonder what, exactly, would constitute a challenge to those roles as far as individual behaviours go. The famous "Pink Man" of the 90s, maybe? One who's in touch with his more sensitive side? who's willing to stay at home and mind the kids while his wife is out earning the household income? who 's a tender and attentive companion that will equate his wife's social power and success with his own happiness? who's not afraid to show his emotional vulnerability and to seek emotional solace in the arms of the woman he loves? I say to Janice Raymond: you find a way for men to do this without their being ridiculed or otherwise ostracized in a, yes, male-dominated society, and I'm in. Both feet first!

In an "ideal" world (one I wouldn't want to live in), there would be no--zero, zip, nada--roles or expectations based solely on gender. Everyone, male or female or otherwise, would be free to wear combat boots for comfort or high heeled shoes for sexual pleasure. (By the way, I think Ms. Raymond is seriously deluded if she thinks there aren't many women out there who fetishize articles of male clothing for sexual reasons; these women are just much deeper in the closet than male crossdressers are, given that one of the tenets of a male-dominated society is that women cannot lead sexually fulfilling lives unless intercourse with a man is involved--still the One Great Myth.)

Anyway, thanks again to all who participate. I quite enjoy this.

Love,
CJ

[Sylvia H]

"That drag queens and cross-dressers can draw hoots and howls in audiences of mostly men says more about how women were and are perceived than it does about the supposed boundary-breaking behavior of gender-bending men putting on women's clothes."

Just curious, historically, when did feminine expression become humorous? It seems to me it wasn't until TV (mass media) came along that it has achieved the status it has. Even in the movies, it doesn't seem to be a huge issue till about the time TV came along.
It may very well exist, but I haven't read anything from before this period that would indicate the overbearing humor factor we now experience.

xox
Sylvia

[Elizabeth]

Hey girls,

I found her rant to be without substance, merely conjecture. It's clear she has no basic understanding of crossdressing or gender deviation. She sees a black and white world. I almost get the feeling maybe she had been intimate with someone who crossdressed or was transgendered and they parted company.

I seen it as a very stereotypical view.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[CJ]

Hi all,

Janice Raymond: Males have been imitating women on the stage and in religious rituals since time immemorial...

Sylvia,

I don't know about "time immemorial," but certainly in the Classical Greek and Roman and in England's Elizabethan ages, women's roles on stage were played by men. Often (especially in Shakespeare's comedies), these roles were played for wit and parody. The early 20th century vaudeville tradition--the precursor to mid-20th century television--continued this tradition. Milton Berle, for instance ("Mr. Television"), began his career, along with George Burns and many other "classics," on the vaudeville stage, where female impersonation was a staple of many a comedic routine. (I think the last in the long list of this type of humour was Flip Wilson's regular appearance on the boob tube as "Geraldine" in the 1970s).

This "comic tradition" may be where Janice Raymond gets the idea that men have been parodying women since "time immemorial." Hoots and howls at seeing a crossdressed male stage performer is nothing new. What is new is a crossdressed male performer (or even an actress playing one) embodying a legitimate male transgender identity not played for laughs (as in, say, "The Crying Game" or "Transamerica" or "Bad Education" or "Tiresia"). Ms. Raymond would do well to watch these "for-profit entertainments" and then discuss just how much the protagonists in them still belong to a white male conservative political power structure.

Elizabeth,

I quite agree with you. There's a strident and almost resentful tone that comes through in Janice Raymond's writing that makes me wonder what kind of personal experience she's had with male transvestites and transsexuals that may have served to underscore her political views on the matter. Having said this, I think she raises a fair point when she implies that we are women out of psychological convenience only, i.e., that we seem unwilling or unable to give up the social and political power that comes with being a man in this world even though we profess ourselves to be women (trans, part-time, or otherwise). When you think about it, it's true; we do nothing to challenge the binary nature of gender roles and expectations. In fact, it appears we often try to conform to those expectations (and "perform" those roles) even more than do non-transgendered folks. Think: the ultra-feminine, short-skirted, high-heeled, lipsticked male crossdresser who dresses in a sexually provocative way. Most GGs don't, or do so in very limited and specific contexts. Ms. Raymond says we do this because it's a way for us to reconfirm, in a way, our social and political status as males. I find it hard to disagree with her. Especially if you throw in the fact that the beauty industry (fashion, cosmetic surgery, etc.) is, despite the presence of the occasional female figurehead, controlled by, oh Lord! white males. If it's men that determine what makes a woman appealing or beautiful or even sexy, then it stands to reason that men will espouse those very same ideals when they, themselves, imitate women. It's an old conversation, one we've had before on this forum: when men imitate women, they often imitate their ideal image of a woman rather than the "real life" women they see around them (you know, the ones who wear track pants, flip-flops, and t-shirts to the mall--what Janice Raymond would undoubtedly call the "flat-sandal-and-trouser set").

Anyway, could be the feminist in me rearing her pretty head.

Love,
CJ

[Anita]

CJ wrote:

that we seem unwilling or unable to give up the social and political power that comes with being a man in this world even though we profess ourselves to be women (trans, part-time, or otherwise).

That is often true of any of us who live less than fulltime, because we do keep one foot in the male world we started with. It's not so much true of fulltime transgender women. They give up male privilege in many ways.

When you think about it, it's true; we do nothing to challenge the binary nature of gender roles and expectations.

One bind transwomen find themselves in is this: if they try to fit in as conventional women, then they're accused of doing nothing to challenge gender roles. If they try to blend skills or roles from their male past into their new life, then they're accused of using their male socialization to be "one up" on women. I know this dichotomy is there in the lives of my trans friends, and they balance it on a daily basis. For some feminists, the transwomen will never do it well enough to be included in the women's community, and that's sad.

[CJ]

For some feminists, the transwomen will never [balance the gender socialization dichotomy] well enough to be included in the women's community, and that's sad.

True, true. It is sad. I'm wondering if it's still possible to discuss along humanistic lines rather than merely feminist ones with women who hold this view. Whenever I've tried to do this, I was accused (by my feminist friends) of trying to evade the issue of male social and political power. On the contrary, I think a humanistic approach encompasses both feminism as well as the "plight" of transwomen as you describe it, Anita.

Good point...Sister!

Love,
CJ

[Amelie-Laveau]

Once again. Posts here go a bit further than my brain can go, I did read some stuff but I kinda got lost.

The only thing that I can add is that it seems that most tg people here and probably others on other forums seem to want to live as a woman in the same world that they also live as men. It seems to me that trying to live in the same surroundings being both male and female create conflicts which in turn bring on posts that go well beyond common sense, posts that are about the philosophies of cding, really deep stuff.. What I mean is, most people that I met in forums are sort of in some sort of transition stage. Not transition in the sense of getting hormones and stuff like that. But it seems that most are in some degree in a closet whereby not everyone knows that they cd. So these cds are in my opinion in a state of transition where they try bit by bit to come out, and in doing so, they make these long thought out posts on acceptance and the why’s of cross dressing. They need to vent their frustrations in long posts hoping that they can find some kind of answers that will legitimize(?) their cding.

I became tg when a teen, so I was able to throw away every family and friend obstacle to my becoming rg, I didn’t have a job so that fear was also not a factor. In my opinion it is because so many cds are in some sort of closet, whether it be because of job, family,, or surroundings that they sometimes have to think very hard on the whys of being tg or the whys of societies views of us. The main cause of problems with tgirls is that most start the process after they had jobs and families, to me, this seems to create an anger or at least the asking of a lot of questions and trying so hard to dissect what is actually not a very difficult thing,, the wearing of clothes.

Of course my opinion up above doesn’t mean that everyone can be described in this way, it’s just something that I sort of observed while being on forums. Because when I meet tg people who never been on web forums, they never talk about things like the philosophies of being a tgirl. They just live. But hey, don’t get me wrong. I do enjoy reading these types of posts, well the ones that I can understand, lol Yea, these posts are way different than the things I talk about in the street. I like things different.

I guess one other thing might be different for me, when I ran away from home, I lived with others like myself or others that had no probs with me being a tgirl. I didn’t always have to interact with the parts of society that some here say that hate cds. I guess life all depends on the surroundings one lives at.

Oh, one other thing, just because I lived among people who accepted me doesn’t mean that I didn’t have problems in life, I still ran into bad guys, I still got hurt feelings from lost loves, it’s just that I didn’t have to many probs looking like a girl,,, I just had the same probs any other ho girl would have.


So if my post confused some well that's good, you're posts sure do confuse me,,,lol

[CJ]

Ah! our dearest Amélie philosophizes... with a hammer, no less!

You know, Amélie, your posts always make perfect sense. Plus, they're to the point. You aim for the bullseye every time and just don't seem to worry about the outer rings of the dartboard. And it works, too.

I agree with you 1000%... it's just wearing clothes, is all it really is. What's the big deal? Well, maybe it ain't such a big deal to someone who comes out early in life but, to those that come out later, the issue can seem huge. So, you're right, too, about the environment thing. Although I probably wouldn't describe myself as "a Tgirl ho," I, too, came out fairly early on in my life and, by the sound of things here, this has saved me from having to go through miles of heartache and loss (and, especially, fear) where my gender expression is concerned. There's a distinct possibility, Amélie, that people like you and me are not very representative of the majority of crossdressers. We've been out for most of our adult lives. Not exactly in the same way (or environment), mind you, but out nonetheless. And this has made a difference in our lives.

We're similar, you and I, even though where you have street smarts (which I lack), I have a tendency (and a knack) for digging under the surface of things just because I'm curious to see what people make of the world they live in--whether that world is Hell's Kitchen or the Harvard campus (or anywhere in between). We're similar, in that we seem to have come to some place of relative peace about who we are more than have other members here (who are here, I have to point out, in order to find that kind of peace for themselves or, at the very least, to learn to live with what grief they have about their gender identity).

But, again, your points are good and your posts are fun to read, as they always provide a fresh perspective from the fringes. Like a breath of fresh inner city air in a stuffy room.

Love,
CJ

[Amelie-Laveau]

Oh, I’m sorry CJ but I didn’t mean to say that you or any other tgirls are considered ‘ho’s”, I just meant that this was the path that I took, and this is where most of my life’s problems came from, my probs didn’t come from my dressing .. I hope I didn’t offend anyone, I didn’t mean to make that part of my post a generalization of all tgirls.

Quite a few posts talk about what others think and write about being tg. And people on forums then discuss what they think of these persons views on being tg, but what I like to read in posts is when members talk about their own experiences and how they relate to these “experts” opinions of us. I would rather hear tgirls members of the forum rather than some other person writing about us. It is from our own hearts and our own experiences that will give the best insight to what it means to be a tgirl. Oh, it’s OK to quote and talk about what these “experts” write but we should tell our experiences and how they relate to the expert writers, rather than just take these writers views of the subject. These writers are talking about us,, what can they say that we can’t do ourselves. I do sometimes understand reading topics about ourselves, when I read stuff, I try and find someone who is writing about me, I look for someone who can tell my story and what goes on inside my mind, but I find only bits and pieces of stuff in different peoples words. I do look at other people’s words, hoping to find someone who knows who I am. I am like most here, I have questions that need to be answered, I am not completely satisfied with things in my life, with things from my past. So I too, look for others that have some of the answers. But sadly, I really haven’t found any while being online. As I said in an other thread, the people online are different from me and different from the people I know outside the web. I could talk to people outside the web for answers but it’s not the same as being on a forum. It’s easier to ask questions and seek advise on a forum, in the outside world if I ask some people questions they look at me like I’m crazy, even the other tgirls I know. Outside the web one has to become real good friends before they can ask personal questions, on a web forum, one can join a forum and ask personal questions from the first day they join. I was hoping for those answers when first joined but people online are different from me and the people I know,, I guess in a way, I’m in a closet because I was unable to know anything else but my little world, my hood. I knew very little about straight cds, Oh I have seen some, but I didn’t know there was so many until I got a computer, I lived in a closet of ignorance.

But as I said, talking about what others think about cding is good, but it’s even better when members here can use their own thoughts and experiences in their posts when talking about what the experts think, this makes things real, it might even give the experts something to think about if they ever read some posts. Because all of us here are the real experts on being a tgirl.

I’m tired, gotta go to bed.

bye

[Absaroka]

Amelie said that most CDers here seem to want to live in the same world as women as they do as men. Or something like that. And I wonder if that isn't the heart of many conflicts, because do men and women live in the same world? Sure lots of times we do, but I'm not sure about always, at least in a metaphorical sense.

I have to say that the books I have read about this that I liked the most were the ones that talked about the authors personal experience.

Absaroka

[Amelie-Laveau]

You're quite right Am,, when I say the word "World" I kinda meant ones personal space or personal surroundings. I kinda meant that most cds who right now live mostly as men also want to try and live as women in the same surroundings as they live in now. My option when young was to throw away all the people that I knew from my youth, and sadly, throw away my family and create a new surrounding(world) for me. I then gathered friends and hung around people that would have no probs with me bing a tgirl, and if one did have a problem then i erased them from my life, they were no longer part of my world.

I was just trying to say that quite a few cds already live in their own world. their own surroundings by making families and having friends who might not accept the cding or even job,, and trying to become more open about cding in my opinion would be difficult for these cds, their world(surroundings) makes it tougher to live as a man who also wants to dress as a woman.. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word world, sometimes I can't think of the right words to use, my brain doesn't think so good.

And yes, I have to interact with others who are not my friends and who don't like who i am,, but this is meangingless to me, they mean nothing to me, they do not become a personal part of my life, so their opinions don't matter to me.

[Jaye]

No discussion topic this week, or is it too early yet?