Ladylike?

[Robyn Katie]

Hi sisters,

Many of us grew up long enough ago so we can remember when little girls were raised to be "ladylike." This sort of behavior implied all sorts of things, some of them no longer viewed with favor, others still taught. Here are a few of both sorts I can think of offhand:

Being gentle
Acting prim and proper
Acting dainty in tastes and behavior
Being skilled in polite conversation
Keeping knees together and skirt smoothed down
Deferring to others (even when looks could kill)
Acting (if not being) chaste
Not being forward
Being demure, not speaking up, but waiting to be spoken to
Not getting dirty
Minding Ps and Qs
Knowing how to act correctly on social occasions: teas, parties, etc.
Not being aggressive, forthright or argumentative

... there must be many more (and some of these overlap). But I'd like to ask:

Does this traditional cluster of behaviors influence you in any way, or have you pretty much rejected it?

To what extent (intentionally or instinctively) have you injected this sort of "acting ladylike" into your femme persona?

Or does acting ladylike mean something completely different as far as you're concerned?

In summary, what does acting like a lady mean to you? Anything? Nothing? Is it just an irrelevance in this day and age? Or if it does carry meaning for you, how do you make it influence your behavior?

Love, Robyn Katie

P.S. For comparison's sake: I'm more or less a tomboy. This girl is not especially prim or dainty ... loves pretty outfits but is happy in jeans and a tee as long as I have my bra (with breasts) and panties on ... can't do small talk to save my soul (ain't chaste either) ... and though I do indeed like being demure and so forth, I generally forget to be until it's too late. If asked to pour the tea, I'm clumsy enough so I'd probably spill it. And I'm a terrible dancer. However, I am bashful and gentle, am ardently working on gracefulness, and have never fallen (yet) while negotiating stairs in high heels, nor caught my breast in a door, so there's probably hope for me. In short, no, I don't usually manage to have ladylikeness in mind day to day. Maybe some of you do, though? I'd love to know.

[Virginia]

Hi Robyn.

Wow could I ever get myself drug off to the woodshed on this thread .

For me, I can only say that when I go out, my decorum just seems to come naturally. I have been to "formal" parties and asked to dance and it just seems to be lady like to accept, if the guy seems (or your feminine instincts say) he's OK! Smile alot, act intelligent, move gracefully, say please and thank you! Common courtesy seems to have gone the way of the horse and buggy in everyday interactions however.

As for appearances, I won't even go there! I have a style that suits me and it is what I would describe as conservatively sexy and it works for me. As for what I see when I go out to eat or the mall or shopping, well .......... no wood shed tonight!!!!! You can all see for yourselves.

Society is definitely a lot less "restrictive" on GG's than it use to be and society tolerates, if I can use that word, a lot more than it use to. Now if we could just get a bit of that "toleration" shifted to us!

Love,

Virginia

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

It seems that the reason one might get dragged to the woodshed is because what is considered "ladylike" varies greatly not only from place to place and culture to culture, but also by age. Having said that, there are finishing schools that teach the art of "ladylike" behavior as well as etiquette for all occasions.

I won't dare say what the "baseline" is, because I am not really sure there is such a thing. However, it's nice to keep ones legs together and refrain from using foul or unpleasant language.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Kendra Lynn]

Hello all: Hm.. . interesting thread...
Some of those behaviors may be viewed as "passe" in these more liberated times; women need not be overly "prim and proper" and certainly should hold their own in conversations. And that's as it should be.
As to myself, I'm already fairly eccentric anyway, having grown up during the tail end of the 1960's "counterculture." Never was a big druggie though.
But when I'm cross dressed, I consciously do not "curse" as much, and try not to be as sarcastic or negative. I try to tone down the "edginess" of any political remarks.
Have to think about this some more...
Best wishes for the holiday season and new year to everyone.
Peace-- Kendra Lynn ("hippie cheerleader").

[KimberlyS]

Growing up I was taught what were proper manors (p's and q's). Was taught how a woman acted. Not sure why I was taught that. Maybe my mom knew something. My mom taught all of us kids how to set a proper table and eat at a formal dinner. I learned how to cook, keep up the house, sew and mend.

But I also grew up knowing how and using power tools, tractors, chain saws, and how to build and wire. I did have a good childhood, but I guess a bit confusing at times. Being I was a person that had a mix of masculine and feminine feels, personalities, traits, and physical attributes. And I could flow back and forth from feminine house tasks to masculine tasks. But at the same time society was very masculine male OR feminine female oriented.

[CJ]

Hi all,

"Ladylike," huh? As in, "lady: a woman who is refined, polite, and well-spoken"? (Random House Unabridged Dictionary) These are qualities (and social graces) that are just as desirable in men as they are in women. Of course, that's just my view.

Looking over Robyn's list of "ladylike" attributes, I have to say that, if it be the case that most of the items listed have gone the way of the dinosaur, then good!... if we mean to attribute them to women only.

Many of these traits I tend to express or exhibit in my ordinary life as a guy, anyway (with the obvious exception of the "skirt-smoothing," of course) so they don't have any special role to play in "my life as a girl" (although some traits may, perhaps, be accentuated on occasion--it depends more on the company that I keep than on how I bear myself when on my own).

Personally, I try, when crossdressing, to be more "woman-like" than "ladylike" (with not very much success, I might add, but such is life). So, no, "ladylike" isn't something I aspire to be. But, then again, the same thing goes for most of the women that I know.

Love,
CJ

[Carol Ann]

All I can say is my mother after she except me was made a perfect lady out of me and my wife to this day said act and dress your age.

[Virginia]

OK! i will take another shot at this. Sorry CJ, I guess this girl is "old school." Ladylike to me is you wear make-up and dress appropriate to your destination, movie, shopping, dance formal or informal, concert, eating out (Mickey D's) vs. a four-five star restaurant. Your hair is always neat, nails polished and clean, teeth brushed, perfume or body spray (no body odor - please); dress, skirt, slacks properly fitted, neat and clean. You smile a lot but hold your own in any conversation. Do not let others take advantage of you, stand up for yourself, or as Teddy use to say, "Speak softly but carry a BIG stick!"

I won't broach what I see as "un" or "not" lady like as again I will not be drug off to the woodshed tonight!

Virginia

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

I am going to have to agree with CJ on this one. If ladylike means eating at a four or five star restaurant, than I am not very ladylike. It sounds as if there is a correlation being made between wealth and ladylike behavior. I am not saying this is not the case, but for most people it's not realistic. The median income in the US is still under $30,000 a year. Most people don't have $75 per person to eat a meal.

While I personally don't care for Micky-D's, I don't have a problem with fast food or eating inexpensively. Also most people I know in the regular world don't have thousands of dollars per year they can spend on wardrobe. That means only having a few pairs of shoes and a few dresses. Other than those who are well off, being "in fashion" and appropriately dressed for "all" occasions is just not within their means.

So if that is what ladylike means, I certainly would not qualify. I associate "ladylike" with one's personal conduct, not how one dresses or where one eats. Things like hygiene as Virginia mentioned, and good manners are more what I consider to be ladylike. Again, what good manners are varies greatly from place to place and culture to culture. On the other hand, body odor seems to be pretty universally not accepted.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Virginia]

HI Elizabeth,

Hon, you have to know that this is not about money, it is about deportment, how one conducts themselves. I realize what you and CJ are saying, that it is "just the way things are today." I can accept that, I am just saying that I am of the mind set of "old school." It is difficult for me to go to, say an opera, or a concert or even an "upscale" restaurant and have someone come in in jeans, dirty tennis shoes and an oversize sweatshirt with unkempt hair and no make-up. I realize that there is nothing I can do about it and "it is my problem do deal with." I can not change nor do I want to in how I define "ladylike." I will continue to dress and act as I define "ladylike," and I will accept those who choose not to meet my expectations. I don't have to like it but I understand and thus life goes on!

Love you all,

Virginia

[Erin L]

Having been raised from early on to be "a gentleman", I have to say that I see little difference between that and being "ladylike", except in the gender-specific areas. And while some of the things Robyn Katie mentioned are certainly passe, I would like to think that there are those who would still seek to conduct themselves in a certain way.

I agree with Virginia - it's not a matter of money. My grandfather grew up dirt poor, had a fourth grade education, and was from then on completely self-educated. Yet much of what I learned about classical music was from him, as well as maintaining a balanced view of things. He considered it unseemly to lose his temper and very rarely did. He insisted that all of us cousins - boys and girls - exhibit good manners. And we did.

[Elizabeth]

HI Elizabeth,
...
It is difficult for me to go to, say an opera, or a concert or even an "upscale" restaurant and have someone come in in jeans, dirty tennis shoes and an oversize sweatshirt with unkempt hair and no make-up.
...
Love you all,

Virginia

Hi Virginia,

Well, I am the person that really bugs you. When I was younger and played in a band one of the things we liked to do was go to 4 or 5 star restaurants in tight jeans and rock shirts and tennis shoes(Kmart Trax no less). I remember one time we had gone into a pretty nice Restaurant on Ventura Blvd. Valle parking with mostly Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Cadilacs in the parking lot.

It was a place my brother used to frequent with his wealthy boss. At first they tried to sit us in the very back where no one would see us. But when we got there my brother very loudly said "OH NO! You're not hiding us back here, we want a table up front in the middle. We'll wait at the bar".

I ran a tab with my American Express Gold Card and they did a check on it, not expecting someone as young as me to have such a card. A pretty big insult for such a place. It was supposed to embarrass me. I was only 21. Finally we got a table and it was right in the middle up front.

Everyone in suits and ties and evening gowns except us. In a way it was fun making others uncomfortable. My brother who had never eaten raw oysters actually spit one out of his mouth back into the shell to avoid throwing up. (I warned him he would not like them). Our waiter rushed over as if someone were on fire to ask what was wrong.

My brother said he didn't like the oysters and had to spit it out to avoid throwing up. The waiter took it away and said it would be removed from our bill and she was sorry that he did not like them.

I remember outside waiting for our car was this wealthy older couple. The woman was wearing a mink stole. When our 1975 4 door malibu was pulled up, she looked over in disgust. Just then they pulled their car up and it was an El Dorado. My brother looked at it and then them and said "nice lead sled".

So there is my confession. I am the kind of person that you are talking about. I guess I just see the world differently.I don't believe anyone has the right to decide how I present myself. That still holds true. It was experiences like that, that have allowed me to go out in public without concerning myself about the opprobrium associated with being transgender.

Having said all that. Other than my brother spitting out an oyster, something I would never have done, we had good manners. We were not loud or rude. We did not disturb those around us and all of us knew the etiquette of eating in such and establishment. So while I considered my actions "gentlemanly", I gather that because of my garb, there are people who were made uncomfortable.

But it's no different that those who may be uncomfortable by my garb these days. I just can't make it my problem. I can have good manners and I can respect other people's rights when out in public. To me that is acting "ladylike", but if I were dressed as a man, than I would be acting "gentlemanly". I see the behavior as not associated with the garb.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[CJ]

Hi all,

Heh. Virginia, no worries about the woodshed, girl. Everyone's entitled to their views and, to my knowledge, it's not a bad thing to have "old-school" values (well, in most circumstances, anyway).

The idea that "ladylike" behaviour is associated with wealth and social standing may have something to do with the title "Lady." A Lady was, historically, the wife of a baronet or of a knight and thus a high society woman, one whose manners, deportment, and behaviours were above reproach in high society.

But this isn't what we mean when we say "Lady" today, is it? We mean a woman who exhibits many of the qualities and graces Robyn listed in the post above. In short, a woman who "knows her place" in society... if, of course, we're talking of the society of the 1940s and 1950s, where women lived in social cages and were expected to be elated at having a revolutionary new automatic dishwasher in their kitchen.

Not for me, thanks.

You may consider this gal unladylike.

This is a fun thread. More, please.

Love,
CJ

[Jennifer]

To me ladylike isn't a gal shooting pool at the local pub even if she's attractive but the one thing I find most unladylike is smoking. I know, I know, women have every right to do as they please and dress in what they are comfortable in just as we do and they don't have to answer to anyone. To me ladylike is a woman who is confident with her femininity but doesn't have to prove it by dressing like a princess.

[Robyn Katie]

I agree, acting "like a lady" has some overlap with "being a gentleman," which my mother earnestly tried to teach me to be. It had as its content injunctions (again, some of them outdated, some still prevalent) like:

mind your manners
speak politely / don't be rude
be considerate of others
open doors for ladies (that one's gone, some women find it demeaning)
defer to your elders
etc.

But there were all those other things like daintiness etc. that gentlemen didn't do ... or if they did, were looked at askance ...

My mother did raise me, like some commenters above, to know how to cook, sew, sweep, mop, make beds, iron, fold, etc. -- basically all the arts of keeping house. Her reasoning: "You never know, you might need to know this someday." And in fact they've come in very useful.

Example of her less practical teachings: I was taught to use a fingerbowl. Never yet in my life have I used one, and hope I never do -- but sister, I know how. She also taught me to how to eat chicken without ever picking up a piece, using knife and fork only, as she reported it was considered beneath one's dignity to lift the drumstick and gnaw it. Colonel Sanders would have gone broke with my mom.

We weren't well off, but even so, the manners that got passed down must have derived from the upper crust somehow.

Oops, thread creep ... and my own thread, too.

Love, Robyn Katie