Pronoun etiquette question

Kimberly Kael · Post by **Kimberly Kael** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:33 pm

Most of the community seems to agree that it's best to use the pronoun that matches the gender someone is presenting ... and if in doubt, ask. That seems simple enough. Or does it?

Where I get tripped up is speaking about the past. You wind up with helpful phrases like "when she was a little boy" and "then he discovered he felt like a male." So what's the etiquette here? Is it as simple as using the pronoun that matches how they were presenting at the time? Then innocuous statements like "he grew up in Nebraska" become an explicit reference to her prior gender. Does it make a difference if the person you're talking about is present? Or whether the person you're speaking to has spent more time around them in one gender or another?

... and once you've gotten all that straightened out for me, you can start in on the same subject with regard to names. Once someone has changed their name, can you use their prior name in the past tense. Ooooooh, but languages can be so entertaining!

Gaven McLaren · Post by **Gaven McLaren** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:40 pm

That is a very good question. I would say that if you use the male pronoun for a female full transitioned or not that is is bad form even if you are talking about their past. that is however just my thought on the matter.

Michelle Miller · Post by **Michelle Miller** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:25 am

My tg sis-in-law gets a kick out of saying "Way back when, when I was 'The Artist Formerly Known As ______"

I always try to stick with the gender they're presenting, and try to not refer to "they way it was" as if it was some kind of sudden 'poof' change. I figure it's not my place to fill in backstory and how things got the way they are when speaking of others, so I try to speak as if there wasn't a change eg. "Well when she was a little girl".

Post by **DonnaT** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:00 am

Michelle Miller wrote: I try to speak as if there wasn't a change eg. "Well when she was a little girl".

It's probably best to try and avoid the double use of gender.

Instead, say, "When she was little."

But, I agree, always try to use the gender they present unless they say otherwise.

Robyn Katie · Post by **Robyn Katie** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:05 am

Hi Kimberly,

I agree with Michelle. For M-to-F TG in any form, "she," right back to birth. For F-to-M, "he." Unless, of course, the person prefers otherwise -- if ascertainable, follow the preference of the person referred to.

Yes it does falsify history, and that's a problem. Certainly in writing a biography you'd have to make the distinction. But IMO in everyday conversation, emails and letters, etc., not doing it creates bigger problems.

Maybe it's just that, day to day, Now is the only real moment we've got.

Love, Robyn Katie

Georgia(SO) · Post by **Georgia(SO)** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:26 am

It does get complex, does it not? I have a friend who is a non-op FtM - and I have a terrible time with pronouns - she presents as male, uses her female given name, and her children call her Daddy.

I wind up assuming that my friend understands that I mean no disrespect if I screw it up - something I would assume that all TGs of all flavors would assume of their own personal friends. I would also assume that if you are good enough friends to be talking about the person, you are good enough friends to be able to ask what pronoun is preferred...

-g(so)

Post by **KimberlyS** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:01 am

Kim I struggle with the pronouns also. I try to stick with how they are presenting. But then if you are together talking while in male mode the pronouns change. Or I begin talking in second person about the person I am talking to.

Of course than there is strange old me and do not care if you would use all male pronouns even when I am enfemme. I just have learned to go with the flow.

kim
joe in a skirt

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:03 pm

Georgia writes:

It does get complex, does it not? I have a friend who is a non-op FtM - and I have a terrible time with pronouns - she presents as male, uses her female given name, and her children call her Daddy.

I know that I'm better with MtFs than FtMs. One reason is that I know all the male gender behavior, and if someone isn't presenting very well as a male, I'll slip--I see a woman in front of me. Whereas with transwomen, the learned female behavior they present usually works for me. Plus I'm just used to thinking MtoF--there's more of them in my life.

When I'm in male dress, I don't mind if people call me Anita. However, it feels funny to be referred to as "she" when I'm dressed male; I never quite get used to that. Transwomen do refer to me that way, though, since they think of me more as my female self. (They see her more!)

When I'm dressed as a woman, I don't like being called my male name. I think it makes me feel like "a man in a dress," and that's not how I want to see myself. Whereas a man with a girl's name--well, that's OK.

Re-writing history? That gets awkward. There's some things about my girlfriend that will always out her. She was an Eagle scout, for instance. She has children, too, and that brings up difficulties rather quickly if we don't clarify things. She's given me carte blanc to handle it however I need to to avoid confusion. She's not in deep stealth, thank goodness.

Veronica · Post by **Veronica** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:08 pm

I find the pronouns can be more difficult than the names. If I meet a crossdresser and they introduce themselves by their femme name, then that is how my mind thinks of them. However, when I know they are a CD, with a definite male voice and overall male build, then the pronoun confusion begins.

For myself, I agree with Kim. Male pronouns do not bother me, but I do feel strange when others call me she, girl, etc. as that is not what I have become accustomed to over a lifetime of being a male who occasionally likes to wear things that society has deemed to be for the female only.

My wife always references me as male, including my name, even when I am crossdressed as that is how she is comfortable, and so am I.

Veronica

Michelle Miller · Post by **Michelle Miller** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:09 pm

DonnaT wrote:
Michelle Miller wrote: I try to speak as if there wasn't a change eg. "Well when she was a little girl".
It's probably best to try and avoid the double use of gender.

Instead, say, "When she was little."

But, I agree, always try to use the gender they present unless they say otherwise.

Dangnabbit woman, I'll double up on that there gender iffn'ses I be a wantin' to there...then.

Virginia · Post by **Virginia** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:42 pm

I would concur that if I am in the company of folk(s) presenting as female, I have no problem in using the correct pronoun for their presentation. I would also understand being at a "meeting" where there were FtoM and one could not be quite sure who's who, that can be a bit of a struggle. Name tags sometimes help!

I am, however, like Kimberly when I am asked to "tell us about yourself." Given where I am on the continuum I tend to refer to "my alter-ego" and "he" this and "he" that because that is how I see and feel in the situation.

I also have to address Veronica. I/we are all happy that your SO accepts Veronica, but speaking for me only, having my SO address me by my alter-ego would call for a "come to Jesus" meeting. I am glad that you seem to be able to deal with it though. If that is one of the "sacrifices" you had to make with your SO in order to present as Veronica, I understand, but I, presonally would have a real problem with it! But that's just me.

Love,

Virginia

Gaven McLaren · Post by **Gaven McLaren** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:53 pm

This is where I am in the minority here. I go by Gaven no mater what I am wearing. I also do not go to any kind of support group as I have not gone to one. I did find one near me it is is close enough for me to really want to go with SF Bay area traffic being the way it is.

Robyn Katie · Post by **Robyn Katie** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:22 am

Very true, Anita.

If I'm in a dress, I love to be called "she," "her," etc. and it would be a real compliment to be referred to by my femme name. No one ever has done so in person, but if it happened it would make me feel all warm and good.

If I'm dressed male (which happens less and less these days), being called "she" could feel insulting and painful if it was said in a hostile way. But if it was loving and respectful I would love it as recognition of what I feel I am inside.

Attitude has a lot to do with it. How many of us can remember being jeered at in childhood for some slight deviance in dress or behavior: "You're a gur-rul!" That's not exactly the femme-affirmation any of us have in mind.

Again it has to do with respecting the person's preference if you can. With that comes the way you say it: if the tone is nasty, any gender reference is going to seem insulting. It's the gentle, respectful, honestly approving, empathetic quality that makes it feel right.

Funny how touchy we are about gender. My wife's aunt has a tomcat and constantly calls him "she." Bugs me! (I suppose it's that old cliche: dogs are male, cats are female???) I keep telling myself to forget it, like, really, who cares. But something in me wants true gender recognized and not ignored.

Love, Robyn Katie