"Have a good day, sir...er, Ma'am!"

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:05 pm

Hi All—
At support group last night, we were puzzling over why we can walk into a store with a full length dress, carrying a purse, with wig and makeup all in place, and still get called “sir.” This is an issue even for the fulltime women in the group, although it happens to them less and less as time goes by in their transition. For us "Who am I" gals, or for CDs who go out, it happens a lot.

I know in some cases the person is trying to put me in my place. They’re letting me know, “You don’t fool ME!” That happens, but it’s not the norm. What’s more the norm is a very pleasant clerk trying to be helpful and friendly, and yet still saying the dreaded word.

I came up with a possible reason last night. Men’s fear of being seen as even the least bit “femme” is a given, right? In polite society, you never imply that a man is anything less than 100% male in his presentation and actions.

So here’s a person that looks like a woman, but it’s obvious to the clerk that it’s really a man underneath that makeup. Like most of the general public, the clerk can’t figure out why a guy would want to do this in the first place. But now he or she is presented with someone who is doing just that. It may be a shock, but they have to remain cool and professional. What do they do?

They revert back to the strict rule: Men are always 100% masculine in polite society—you never mention anything that might be considered slighting of their masculinity. So the clerk takes that ‘rule,’ and they assume that even in this circumstance, they’d better play it safe and not challenge the guy’s masculinity.

It seems crazy, but it’s actually very logical in this situation. When you consider that you run the risk of anger and even violence if you insult a man in public, it's better to be cautious here. Stick to conventional terms.

I’m a friendly person, and generally have a good rapport with store clerks, no matter how I’m dressed. I could tell when the clerk and I were hitting it off, and it would jar me when they still called me “sir.” It didn’t make sense, because their friendliness said that they wanted to do the right thing for me. But in their mind, calling me a male pronoun WAS the right thing to do. They couldn't imagine any other way of doing it on the spur of the moment.

Some clerks just smile and remain silent. Others do address me as a gal, because TG women aren't a novelty in this area. I generally smile and say to clerks, “When I’m dressed like this, I prefer to be called, ‘Ma’am.’”
If there's new rules, we have to educate people as to what they are!

April Rose · Post by **April Rose** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:23 pm

Anita, I think you have a very sensible attitude.

SharonRose · Post by **SharonRose** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:23 am

This makes sense to me. I had never thought of it in this context.

thanks for posting this.

Kyra · Post by **Kyra** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:52 am

Hi Anita,
You pose an interesting question.

As I know several crossdressers intimately, and have talked with these people in both boy and girl mode, I must admit to an occasional slip of the tongue. I apologize immediately and then feel quite embarrassed for the mistake. But it does happen! No one has yet been seriously offended by the accidental use of incorrect names or pronouns. We just laugh it off.

Last Saturday a member of the Denver Police Dept. gave a talk to our group about being out and about dressed en femme. Over and above the usual "be aware of your surroundings" and "safety in numbers" speech, he also told us of the training he is giving to new recruits. The DPD tells its officers to use appropriate pronouns for how people appear. He stated that our appearance can often be confusing to them. As we can atest to the fact, we still get "sir" instead of "ma'am". He said we should gently but firmly state how we would like to be addressed. i.e. - "I prefer to be called Kyra." or "you can call me Ms. Kross" He did emphasize the fact that we are sometimes confusing to the general public.

Maybe its just a Freudian slip. The mind is a complex organ. Who knows for sure? It'd be good to read some more responses though.

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:02 pm

Hi Kyra--
In casual conversations I can see it being a slip--I do it around my TG friends, too. In the store situations, I don't see it that way. They may be caught off-guard, but they do have time to formulate a response. On a one-time encounter, the clerk has some incentive to get it right, whatever that may be. I'm suggesting that they may be basing the so-called "right" choice on faulty information.

As for the police--yes, it seems important to let them know how you want to be addressed. It cuts down on the confusion that can happen when police or paramedics show up.

The DPD tells its officers to use appropriate pronouns for how people appear

That's admirable, but it's sure hard to do in real life, especially in the kinds of situations the police are usually called to. I run into it at support groups, where I'm not sure who's FtM and who's MtF. It's even harder out in public, and I'm sure clerks get an earful if they make an honest mistake, and "sir" a gg who has a deep voice and a short haircut.
And once again, to "Ma'am" a man by mistake would be even worse, because men can and do act out more than women when they get angry.

My example above is one where I'm presenting a clear-cut female appearance, though. That's important to me--I don't want people to have to guess.

Merinda · Post by **Merinda** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:28 pm

Hi Anita ,

I used to get the opposite effect , I would be called Ma'am or Miss by sales clerks , bus drivers and even an elevator operator when in "DRAB".
(And loving it)
This would occur on many occasions up until the time I cut off my longhair almost 9 years ago.

Oh how I miss those days

, I've suffered withdrawal ever since and my hair is too thin on top to attempt re-establishment.

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:00 pm

Hi Merinda--
Congratulations on not coming off as a disruptive person, then. I've been mistakedly "Ma'am" maybe twice, when I had long hair. I couldn't figure THAT out, either--without the femme cues, I sure don't come off as a woman on first appearance, (or even second appearance.) I have to work at it more than that.

Sorry that your hair is not coming back by itself now.

Azurielle · Post by **Azurielle** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:29 pm

I don't mind bwing called Sir, I mind when they say a very unnatural MA'AAAAAM while almost rolling their eyes. I usually don't bother to pass, since I selectively wear what makes me feel good while breaking most gender rules in the process, but making fun of an individual's decisions without confronting him/her is really immature. If you have a problem with me, I'm open to discussion and if you do not approve then just say so, but try to act like a professionnal for once.

By the way, I actually find myself not turning towards the server when they call me ma'am the first time if I'm not specifically paying attention to the waiters.

JoAnnDallas · Post by **JoAnnDallas** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:50 am

I guess I have been lucky so far. When out dressed, I have never had another person call me "Sir". Then too I have had others refer to me in the fem mode when I was out in Drab.
I have on twio occasions had to out myself while dressed only because of the cirumstance. The first time was when I needed to get a perscription listing from Walmart. I had to sign for it, thus had to sign my legal name and show legal ID. The second was when I was at Walmart and had to return an Item. I did not have the receipt so had to show ID. Funny thing is the female SA at first told me I could not use my Husbands DL. You should have seen the surpise look on her face when I told her the DL was mine and it all of a sudden dawned on her I was in Drag.
In both occasions, the SA was polite and both treated me with respect and addressed me as the gender I was presenting.

Patti D · Post by **Patti D** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:56 pm

The only time I got called mam in public was a trip to wal mart and I tried to pull the carts apart to shop. The door greters and a male manager came running over to help me and was apolizing for the carts being stuck together. I think I had the carts almost off the ground trying to get them loose and the last thing I wanted was attention drawn my way. Anyway I got my cart and was addressed nicely and went shopping

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:48 am

Hi Anita,

I think that many times it is the default answer. It's the safe answer. I can totally see that happening. I have also had the ones that were trying to put me in my place. When that happpens, I sometimes make a big deal out of it and say "Do you really think I want to be called "sir""?

Then everyone laughs at them and they feel foolish. But because of the problem of it just being confusing, I have to be really certain the person is trying to stick it to me. I think 99.99% of the time, it's either a slip or the person just doesn't know what to call us.

When I first started going by Elizabeth, in public, I had some trouble getting used to it. I would not realize that Elizabeth was me, when being addressed by others. But after a short time, I became used to it. Same with being called Maim and Miss, at first I was not aware I was the one being addressed, but now I am quite accustomed to it.

So in the end, I don't get upset when people get it wrong. I don't think they intend to. Many times I can see they feel bad and some will apologize and make sure I don't feel offended. Now I am not saying it's that way everywhere, but it is here in southern California.

Love always,
Elizabeth

JoAnnDallas · Post by **JoAnnDallas** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:07 am

Always remember that if a SA does not treat you with respect and the gender your presenting, always ask to see the manager. In many cases it will stop them dead in their tracks or the manager will. If the manager feels negtive toward you then leave the establishment and contact the upper management office with a complaint.
I know of one girl in my Tri-Ess chapter that this happen to. Upper managment sent her a letter of applogy, a $50 credit, and when she went back to the store was told that the SA and Manager had been fired.
Also remember you don't have to be trans to get bad service.

Absaroka · Post by **Absaroka** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:16 am

I buy my girl clothes while presenting as male, so the gender question doesn't apply. However the SA reaction to a man buying a bra, or a man trying on a bra, can vary.

As has been repeated here, it's important for me to be thoughtful if I want the same in return. So I go to stores to try on stuff at slow hours (the customer is always right but they have other customers as well that they want to feel comfortable). Sometimes I call ahead to ask about how they feel about this.

I went to Bare Neccesities a couple of years ago for a halloween bra. I explained what I wanted and the SA laughed. A very pleasant and friendly laugh, and she was very pleasant and helpful. Meausred me and then when I was about to try on her first selection I asked how much it was. When she told me I decided they were too pricey and since I wasn't going to buy anything I didn't feel right about trying stuff on. I thanked her and went to Wal Mart. Also went back the next day on Halloween to show her my costume and she appeared quite pleased at my return.

Here's the thing. I told her what I wanted and she laughed. A nice laugh as I have noted. And what I got from that is that if I am going to do this then I have to allow other people the honesty of their reaction. Which is what I got from her.

Yes it can get very tiresome to be different. But lets be honest here. We are different.

Respect comes in a lot of flavors. An honest mistake about how we want to be percieved may not be what we want, but it is still respect. The SAs and all the other people we meet aren't mind readers.

Anita I know you know all this already and could have writen it yourself. As could many other here. Just me adding my 2 cents.........

BN closed. Too bad, I really liked them even though after I went bra shopping there I could no longer pass off my shopping as for my wife even when it really was.

Absaroka

Lana · Post by **Lana** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:10 pm

Several years ago, I would buy lingerie and say it was for my wife. Actually most of it was but after a while, I realized she would only wear it once, if at all, and then it went into the bottom of her lingerie drawer never to be worn by her again.
When my dressing urge came back, I would go into her lingerie drawer and get out what I had gotten her and wear it myself.
Then, once while shopping for some lingerie, a SA was very talkative and inquisitive about what I was buying and who it was for. I was really feeling comfortable talking to her so I let go with the whole story about how I got started dressing and about wearing lingerie bought for the wife that she refused to wear. Always when shopping in that store afterwards, she was most attentive to what I was looking for in the way of lingerie, knowing it was for me.
Lana

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:12 am

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies on this.

Elizabeth wrote:

I sometimes make a big deal out of it and say "Do you really think I want to be called "sir""?

I like that, E! I think I'll use that one in the near future.

JoAnn:

Also remember you don't have to be trans to get bad service.

(But it can sure speed up the process!) That struck me funny. Yes, I've had more difficulty with clerks as a guy than as a girl. But of course, I spend a lot more time as a guy, too.

Tammy wrote:

I think I had the carts almost off the ground trying to get them loose and the last thing I wanted was attention drawn my way.

That's a great image, Tammy. Reminds me of the night girl-me walked into a brew pub, and the place was packed, every eye on me. I came to the one step up, and fell flat on my face. I went from self-consciousness to being mortified.

Azurelle wrote:

I mind when they say a very unnatural MA'AAAAAM while almost rolling their eyes

That's a vivid image, too. I've probably experienced a few of those, but my memory has mercifully blotted them out.

Absaroka wrote:

Also went back the next day on Halloween to show her my costume and she appeared quite pleased at my return.

Lana wrote:

Always when shopping in that store afterwards, she was most attentive to what I was looking for in the way of lingerie, knowing it was for me.

It is still amazing to me that I can get a rapport going with saleswomen that is unlike anything I ever experienced before. It is not quite as noticeable if I'm dressed male, but it's still there.

April, Sharon, thanks for your replies.