Erotic cowardice?

[CJ]

Hi all,

I don't remember exactly where now but I was recently surfing on the net, reading up on the meaning of fetishism, and someone was pointing out that fetishism, as a form of "mastery over an inanimate object" (such as an article of clothing, for instance) was a compensation mechanism for feelings of sexual--or, more pointedly, "erotic"--inadequacy. In other words, a fetishist (usually male) gets an erotic charge out of an object (rather than a person) simply because he subconsciously feels he cannot adequately relate to another person sexually or fulfill the sexual expectations made on him as a man; he's afraid of sexual rejection or failure and therefore turns to an "erotic object" that will never reject him... a shoe, a pair of panties, a silk scarf... or even, dare I say it? himself, transformed into some feminine "Other"--an "Other" that will never reject him.

Is crossdressing, for a heterosexual male, the ultimate recourse in a defense against his own inadmissible or subconsciously disavowed erotic cowardice? Do we really dress as women because, as we often hear ourselves say, we love women so much we want to emulate them? or do we really do so because, deep down inside, we're afraid of being men (or of being rejected as men)? (This last statement sets up a paradox when you consider that men who dress as women are more likely to be rejected as men anyway!)

What think you all?

Love,
CJ

[Erin L]

CJ,

It's really interesting that you posted this, because I've had some thoughts along these lines myself. But, I would not charge the discussion with pejorative terms like "cowardice".

What I had been thinking (and reflecting on a lot lately) is the whole idea of acceptance. We talk about that a lot here - usually in the realm of accepting our feminine selves or acceptance of our feminine selves by others. But it seems to me that along with all of this there is often (and I include myself, as I sit here and post this dressed in a nice dress, hose and heels) a difficulty accepting our male selves. That lack of acceptance may very well be the result of our perception (often reinforced by others) that our male selves are not "male" enough. As a boy, there were certainly times when I felt like that (usually as I was losing a fight or being told to go play "deep deep right field").

Now, there are long stretches in which I am comfortable in my male personna, but I am never completely unaware of my female personna. There are still times that I long to be completely feminine, but I've at least accepted that such is not going to happen, and for that matter, at this stage in my life I would not really want it to happen.

And I wonder - on the day that I completely accept my male self, will I no longer need to dress?

Hugs to all,

Erin

[DonnaT]

Sounds like something Ray Blanchard and/or Kenneth J. Zucker might conjure up.

I became interested in women's clothes long before expressing any sexual desires. And long before I even liked girls.

I think some of these ideas don't go back far enough in a persons history. For example, someone like Blanchard might ask a 22 yr old about their masturbation techniques and then about their experiences with girls at agea 12-16, and not bother asking about their thoughts at age 6.

EDIT: try a Google search using -blanchard zucker fetish sexual inadequacies- and see how many studies pop up.

[DonnaT]

Is crossdressing, for a heterosexual male, the ultimate recourse in a defense against his own inadmissible or subconsciously disavowed erotic cowardice?

I doubt that any any influence on my CDing, since my desires arose at such a young age.

Do we really dress as women because, as we often hear ourselves say, we love women so much we want to emulate them?

When I started I had no liking for girls (or women). So I doubt very seriously that I wanted to emulate them. I saw a young boy, crossdressed and playing with his sister, and it was him I wanted to change places with.

or do we really do so because, deep down inside, we're afraid of being men (or of being rejected as men)? (This last statement sets up a paradox when you consider that men who dress as women are more likely to be rejected as men anyway!)

Not on my part. I started very young, with no thoughts about being a man (or woman). I was good at sports, and was quite proud when my dad had me out hunting, or helping in preparing the land he bought to build a house on, at less than eight yrs old.

[Wendae]

Is crossdressing, for a heterosexual male, the ultimate recourse in a defense against his own inadmissible or subconsciously disavowed erotic cowardice? Do we really dress as women because, as we often hear ourselves say, we love women so much we want to emulate them? or do we really do so because, deep down inside, we're afraid of being men (or of being rejected as men)? (This last statement sets up a paradox when you consider that men who dress as women are more likely to be rejected as men anyway!)

Nah!

[JoAnnDallas]

When you look at most of the statistics, you will notice that a large majority of CDers are married and have children. This in itself shows that as a whole MtF CDers that

afraid of being men (or of being rejected as men)?

is not true. A good example of this is in my Tri-Ess chapter, most of the CDer's are not only married but their wives also belong. It is true that for a lot of MtF CDers that there is a sexual component to crossdressing but again in most cases it appears early in life. The older the CDer is the less you see of this component.
I can attest to this when I was younger 7-17, yes dressing up did have an sexual erotic nature, but not as a fetish. Later on 20 years old - present, this changed into something more. The feeling was more like normalcy than anything else.
I am not saying that there is no such thing as crossdressing fetish, such as crossdressing as part of a S&M bondage theam.
From time to time we have consular that comes to my Tri-Ess meetings. On did touch on this subject. She liken MtF CDing to those that dressup in Civil War clothing and reenact Civil War Battles. These people will dress inside out in period clothing, use period items, and speak in period language. As far as their desire, urge, and etc, they are just like a MtF CDer. Both emusirsh themselves into their characters Both become their characters for a while and then return back. Do these people have a fetish? I would and most professionals would say NO. One consular told us that for CDer's there is a BIG social stigma that bothers some people where Civil War reenactors don't have this social stigma.
Most professionals will tell that the difference between a fetish and a non-fetish events is sometimes very hard to tell. Both fetish CDing and what I call Normal CDing do and will cross the line into both worlds. But to say ALL CDing is fetish is very much wrong. even now medical science is starting show that CDing does have a biological/neurological component.

[Erin L]

JoAnne, I think the fact that most MtF CDers are married with families is important when discussing the distortion of crossdressing as related to homosexuality (which many of us here have had to contend with over time), but irrelevant when discussing nonacceptance of ones male self.

I think of it as a range, with total acceptance of maleness at one end and total unacceptance at the other. At the total acceptance end of the scale, I would argue that there should be no gender issues, no need to crossdress, etc. At the other end would be the completely transitioned MtF transexual. Where you are on the scale determines what percentage of your time and effort is devoted to things feminine (I mean this conceptually, not as a mathematical formula).

In my first post, I think I made it seem as if the lack of acceptance of maleness is rooted in one's perceived failure to achieve "maleness". And I do think that's true in some cases but not all. There are many CDs for whom traditionally female roles are desirable, which in turn leads to rejection for the self of male roles.

I was two when I indicated an interest in a baby carriage as a toy. I don't remember it, only my father telling the story about it (when I was about 8 or 9). Did those desires impact my inability to be dominant in typical male activities like sports? Or did the two just happen to go together, resulting in an even stronger identification with things feminine? I don't know, and I doubt I ever will.

Hugs,

Erin

[Merinda]

Before we agree or disagree with this topic we must remember one thing , " we are all different " .

eg: Elizabeth = there is no male version of me
eg: Merinda = occasional dresser
eg: FictionalFrida = 100% male but likes to wear pantyhose
eg: FetishSam = 100% male who wears knickers for sexual stimulation and no other reason

What CJ has posted will not account for everyones lifestyle on this site but there are certainly some home self truths there , the thing I do disagree with is the label "erotic Cowardice".

How does this topic relate to Merinda?

Back in my schooldays I had a major crush on a tall blonde girl who looked like Agnita (Anna) from the pop group ABBA , over a period of 5 months I fumbled , froze , freaked out , failed and f..... up in all ways attempting to start a relationship with this girl.
The sad thing was that I think the girl had a genuine interest in me at the start , then I made a blubering fool of myself anytime she came near me.
I finished school at the end of the year and realized that I had failed and it was too late , I also realized this was a repeat of the same thing that happened at the end of Primary school some years earlier , the following year could be described as empty.
I went on to be rejected by the opposite sex for many years , this was when I first FULLY crossdressed , I created my own girl who would not reject me.

Some years later I started dressing in a green school uniform , the earlier members of this forum will remember.
Would anyone like to have a guess as to what color uniform my schoolday heartthrob used to wear ??

I have always had a Femme side but I had no interest in womens clothing until my mid 20's , I believe it was the self failures + consistant rejection = that activated my present pathway.

[Robyn Katie]

Hi sisters,

Some quick thoughts:

Rejected as men - "Not male enough?" On the contrary, I've never had that problem. Those around me have always been accepting of me as a male. Rather, I am uneasy and unhappy **being accepted as a man.** Because I know I'm something else, something much nicer (cuter, too). I wish I could be accepted as a woman!!! So the rejection problem could be stated more like: I'm **unwilling to be accepted by myself as a male. ** Indeed I am rejected by myself as a male. I.e. it's me doing the judging, and feeling the strain, not some projection of the outside world. In Erin's terms, I could never "completely accept my male self," because in many important ways it's a false overlay.

Rejection by women - I've had a full and exciting sex and love life with a number of women, am involved in a wonderful nearly 40-year romantic relationship at this moment, but I'm still TG and CD. Sure, there've been some that always kept tantalizingly beyond reach, but still I don't see that as motivating my CD or TG impulses. Sure, none of us have had ALL the women we wanted. So then, question: If we had, would we be less likely to be CDers or TGers, more likely, or no difference? I say no difference.

Rejection in general - In "creating our own girl who won't reject us," we're actually doing something much more complex: creating a secret that would be widely and resoundingly rejected by family, friends and the general public if known. We're setting ourselves up for rejection across the board! So how is fear of rejection the key in any way at all?

Cowardice - If this were true, what exactly would we have attempted had we dared? Cowardice IMO is more related to the "standing on the corner watching all the girls go by" gang mentality, seeking safety in the male herd against the threat of an actual relationship. (The "football is life" paradigm.) The fear of, and need to escape from, women is widespread among reams of men. We seem exempt from that. As for cowardice, seems to me the ultimate cowardice is rape, and the rape mentality that is quite prevalent in society, in which I suppose we participate, but more as objects??? than perps??? If anything, we TGs and CDs have eluded cowardice by acting in another direction. So I think it's not so much cowardice as it is a desire not to be a certain kind of person.

Early onset of desire - DonnaT is dead right on this. The CD desire often predates the coming of social-sexual identity.. I was hungrily dressing in my mom's clothes at age 7 or 8, well before the difference between boys and girls mattered to me in other terms. Any erotic cowardice doesn't strike the growing boy until later ... say, during or after onset of puberty.

Merinda's right ... we're all different. Most every thread demonstrates this, including a recent thread of mine about my way of "projecting myself into the feminine" that freshly reminded me how different I am in at least one respect from nearly everyone here. So it's pretty hard to generalize, and seems several of us find it unfair to be generalized about, too.

Over and over, these professional opinionators and experts seem to get it wrong. But that's natural as they're outside guessing, not feeling it from inside.

And were any of us to try to set up as an expert, we'd likely be wrong a good part of the time too, as TG/CDers are so diverse.

I do think it's interesting so many of us found our CD lusts expanding in middle age, after the social role of courting, marriage, procreation and childraising ebbs. But it's natural enough, I think ... some theorist might relate it to waning sexual ability, the oncoming of age and impotence. Would that have any merit? I'm not sure.

I also think CDing (and TGing in general?) may be strongly correlated to the desire for erotic novelty, the need to constantly refresh ourselves with new sexual discoveries, while most men seem content/relieved to vanish into a largely non-erotic later life. That's something worth debate.

Love, Robyn Katie

[Robyn Katie]

One more quick thought.

I have no objection to being considered a fetishist ... indeed that's fine, if it applies ... but does it?

My feeling is that CDing in general far transcends fetishism. Am I correct in understanding what a fetishist does is create a sexual "ghost partner" or a sexual substitute through some singular object and then revels in it: say, a girdle, a pair of shoes, some nylons, whatever. Am I, for example, a panty fetishist? I'd say not particularly, or that's only a fraction of what panties are to me—I wear them, I don't sniff them or collect them or roll in them.

In other words, panties are for me a way of being more feminine, not necessarily of getting off. They're part of a wider identity, not a narrow obsession.

But wait, maybe the complete outfit is a fetish object? Certainly it can be, and I would suggest it most likely is in the drag queen sector of the world. But for anyone who is more broadly TG, in other words "not just about the clothes," I think fetishism is a minor part of something much bigger.

It's the difference between making love to your car and driving it. My feeling is, we're driving the car ... as females.

I think my femaleness might more justly be considered an alternate identity that in some ways is more real and satisfying (and true to my inner reality) than my male one. Certainly more satisfying and fun. There's fetishism involved, but heck, there's fetishism in all sorts of consumer goods and activities.

The point is, I would propose it's way more than that. In fact for me it is an enlargement of myself out of a narrow and restricting male cage. Self-fulfillment and self-discovery.

Love, Robyn Katie

[CJ]

Hi all,

Interesting replies. Thanks for the input, folks.

I guess the subject matter has more to do with what, for example, the DSM calls "Transvestic Fetishism" than it does with what it calls "Gender Identity Disorder."

Robyn wrote: But for anyone who is more broadly TG, in other words "not just about the clothes," I think fetishism is a minor part of something much bigger.

Maybe I was thinking of those crossdressers for whom it is, precisely, "just about the clothes" (a group that, to my understanding, makes up the majority of heterosexual male crossdressers--not transsexuals, but crossdressers). In other words, those for whom the act of dressing as well as the clothing itself carry an erotic charge. But I may be off-base, here, I'll admit.

As far as the "cowardice" aspect is concerned, perhaps "cowardice" is the wrong word if we remember that the fetishistic behaviour in question is alleged to have subconscious roots. Cowardice is a deliberate behaviour or state of mind ("I'm afraid of A so I will not do B"). It's not like we tell ourselves, "I have no success with girls and/or I'm afraid of girls so I think I'll just become my own girl." No. It happens without our being aware that this is what is (again, allegedly) going on. Even on this forum's poll results about the onset of dressing urges and behaviour, most say they began to crossdress between the ages of 9 and 14--puberty, a time when our sexuality awakens.

Of course, it's surely all much more complicated than that. Again, from what I understand, people that exhibit fetishistic traits do so because some object in their early childhood somehow "imprinted" itself on their developing psyche (this is a subconscious process). This "imprint" would (as always, allegedly) serve to explain why some folks are sexually attracted to shoes, some to underwear, some to gloves, some to fur, etc., etc. I guess what I'm trying to suggest here is this: is it possible that, rather than this or that article of female clothing, it's femininity or womanhood itself that "imprinted" itself as an erotic object in the mind of the young crossdresser (or crossdresser-to-be)?

Food for thought.

Love,
CJ

[Absaroka]

A great question and a complicated one. A couple of thoughts about other people and then a bit of self examination.

First lets start with the idea that the transgendered person is perhaps not a crossdresser, that they are merely dressing in the clothes that reflect who they really are.

That leaves folks like me who dress in womens clothing specifically because I am not a woman. Absolutely I am breaking a societal guideline, absolutely I am engaging in a fantasy at a variety of levels.

Okay first as an expression of inability to deal with sexual feelings towards real women. I'm fine with that. This started when I was 8 with my mothers clothing and was one of the most erotic experiences I've ever had. Sexual attraction to your mom is NORMAL in 8 year old boys according to just about any developmental psychiatric theory. So I couldn't deal with and act on sexual feelings toward the real woman I was attracted to at age 8, my mom? And the point is????????? Of course I couldn't! I have no problem at all with the idea that this is how this started.

Once started however it developed a life of it's own. Just like I was fascinated by trains as a child and now I have a model railroad. But that's not about sex so no one gets too upset. Women sometimes (never men, who seem to instinctively understand this) think the model railroads are childish. Okay, so I have an inner child........

On to sexual or interpersonal cowardice or fear of intimacy in adulthood. Yes I have some fear of emotional intimacy and my wife will tell you that it is a well founded fear. She would tell you that I have the capacity to be emotionally exhausting and that it's a good thing that I spread myself around, go to 12 step meetings and stuff like that. That I am completely deserving of the several different psychiatric diagnoses I have. And at that same time I function pretty well in society, have been a good husband and father, have a successful business of my own and have long periods of peace and happiness. That she's glad she married me.

When we were dating and getting to know each other, and during that several year period of being madly in love had she wanted to share in my CDing I would have (I think) welcomed it. The truth is that there is this thing about me, my desire to wear womens clothing, that today does have a life of it's own. Personally I think that although I was not born with it that it became hard wired in me at an early age. I do think that learned behaviors can become hardwired. Like once you learn to swim or ride a bike you don't forget.

Sure wearing someones clothes is a mark of affection. It's why my daughter wears my flannel shirts. I could make a case for it being why I wear my wifes panties (except I don't, I bought my own) I have a male friend who wears his sons college sweatshirt and say it makes him feel closer to his son. Completely unremarkable. It has something to do with the idea that I would not wear the bra belonging to some other woman.

So to try to sum it up.....Telling my wife all, and having her participate in my CDing, would be a very intimate thing. Personally I think sharing your sexual "props" with someone could be quite intimate if done in a certain spiritual and emotional state. And I don't do it. Partly because I'm pretty sure she wants nothing to do with this.

But, and here is the big but, I don't really want to do it either. I like my secret.

Dressing for me is sexual but something else too at this point as I have shared. In a way it allows me to be my own imaginary friend. Sometimes that imaginary friend is my sexual partner. Sometimes she is something else that I don't have words for.

I think the fundamental problem with the whole question is the either or nature of it. All of us have some problem somewhere with intimacy. All humans do. So we can always look and find a way that CDing is a form of retreat and isolation in some way. Just like eating dinner alone is or going for a walk in the woods alone is or a million other things are. But if we get rid of all that isolation then we wind up unable to be alone and we have a new dysfunction.

I come back to what DSM is supposed to say about most mental disorders. A neccesary component is that it signifigantly interferes with our lives. Which of course is a question open to vast interpretation. How much is my Cding interfering with my life. The answer is I don't know. Sure it has created a barrier for me. Or has it? Would the barrier be there anyway? I don't know.

As so often happens the discussion has strayed from the cding to the fallout from the secrecy. They can be hard to separate........

Absaroka

[Rikki]

Such food for thought! All of your insights are so real. I find "truths" that fit me in every one of them. I only hope that professional mental health people can listen to all of your feelings and observations and use that knowledge and experience to help them help their clients.

I feel better every time I visit here!

May the flounce be with you all.
rr

[Carolynn]

Hi CJ and all. Thanks for starting this thread CJ. It's something I have been thinking about since my trip to BE-ALL, or at least various aspects of it.

Hummmm, CJ, where does fetish end and fantasy begin? Can we say that fetish is the focus and fantasy is a script that gives an framework for expression for the fetish? What think y'all?

I cannot personally relate to the fetishistic aspects of dressing, but I have seen it and discussed it with a couple of cds in 3d that were out and about, and observed it in action among some of the 443 folks at BE-ALL. I am sure it exists, and I wonder at the progression that some people talk about as they get farther from puberty (mature?), while others maintain the fetishistic aspects, though that may transform as well into additional aspects. Can we go farther and ask if the act of crossdressing is a fetishistic fantasy in itself? I know from the posts on this site that we all have come here by similar but different routes. A question to ponder I think, but quit when the headache starts.

The discussion with the grrls in 3d was when I saw them in public aspects of their fantasy, dressed fetishistically if we can distinguish these things that way. They were at a gay/drag night club I visited in OKC with my support group, and were the only two so dressed. One was dressed in BDSM leathers with locks on some parts of the clothes (though she confessed it was just a fantasy, wouldn't really want to do that- except maybe... and the clothes were a definite turn on for her, so for her a fetish as well as a fantasy?). She admitted to fantasies of forced femme stuff, so for her perhaps the clothes were outward expressions of a complicated sexual repression/wish fulfillment in a limited way (so Freud-like, huh) that took on the aspect of fetishistic behavior.

The other was a very mature little girl in a party dress. The "little girl" had Shirly Temple sausage curls and did an amateur drag routine where she lip synched to the "Good Ship Lolipop", definitely a double entendre much appreciated by the gay clientele.

The people at BE-ALL? The ones I thought fell into a kind of fetish or fantasy included "Gretal" from Hansel and Gretal, or at least she was wearing a sort of Bavarian traditional costume with a blonde wig in pigtails. She actually was a worker in a transformation shop that catered to fantasy costumes as well as other aspects of CDing, so I am not really sure why she was wearing that costume. Could have been the same as the reason for climbing mountains, "Because it was there.".

Another was a somewhat mature Alice in Wonderland complete with pinafore and Mary Janes over white ankle socks, but the Mary Janes had 4 inch heels and she nearly broke her ankle trying to skip in them. She wore different dresses on the same theme for 4 days. I didn't have an opportunity to talk to any of these folks, other than Alice for a minute while helping her up from the floor, and that was limited to making sure her ankle was not broken.

Why do some people see a train wreck and stand around looking instead of helping? I know, even more off topic.

A third that really stood out was dressed sorta like a Japanese Geisha, with the white face, wig, tiny red lips drawn with lipstick, Kimono that limited stride, and her stride was further limited by the 6 inch heeled, built up block frame BDSM shoes that may have been boots ( I'm sure they have a name but can't think of it), but the tops disappeared beneath the Kimono. No, I do not have any idea what she was wearing beneath the Kimono!!!! She also wore dark glasses throughout the evening (formal dinner), even well after dark and pulled the wig down low on her forehead so that there was no forehead showing. She was very tall without the 6 inch heels. She was not around except for Saturday evening so far as I could tell, but the costume obscured sooo much of her I couldn't be sure. If she wanted to hide her identity, she could not have chosen a better costume for it, I think.

Hmmm, I left out the "Donna Reeds" who were dressed in the '50s dresses similar to those worn by Donna Reed and to some extent, Lucille Ball. Wig styles and make up - very bright and contrasty- were appropriate to that TV vision of the 1950's, and they would have been children at about that time. Hmmm. Yep, that would seem to fit a childhood fetishistic model, eh?. Most were a little confused as they also tried to walk like John Wayne, in heels, thin ones.

Maybe more Fantasy than fetish, or on a different level was the person with a be-e-e-u-tifully fitting wedding dress, with two friends dressed as bridesmaids, and a F2M post op who wore a tux and joined the party as the groom at the formal dinner that ended BE-ALL. There were a lot of great gowns in that room, and it was the only place where most people made an attempt to match voice, deportment and appearance (that quickly broke down as the cocktails flowed).

Sorry if I discombombulated the flow of the thread with these observations of others rather than expressing personal aspects. As I said I have not had that experience but have been interested in the topic for a few weeks.

Sometimes I thinks I thinks too much.

Carolynn

[Merinda]

CJ ,

I wish to nominate this as the most interesting topic of the year , this has really made us expose our innerselves.