With whom?

[Anne]

Ok, so is there a changing perception as we go along who we may dress around?

In other threads, the question is: have we told our loved ones or communicated with other CDs?

I would tend to say that in the beginning we're not sure what we're feeling and with society not necessarily embracing CDing, it is a very personal thing we don't discuss.

But we are social creatures (hey, we're on this forum as proof). . .

So the perception can change over time, whether it is with friends, family, or online, we really do want to socialize as it takes that edge off of it and can increase the pleasure of dressing ("does this dress make my butt look big?" is best asked of someone and not the dog when trying on outfits).

I'm probably only scratching the surface, just something I'm trying to grasp.

Anne

[Kimberly Kael]

Ok, so is there a changing perception as we go along who we may dress around?

I think the answer is still very individual depending on your arc. For me certainly the answer is a resounding "yes" as I've gone from being almost completely closeted to completely public.

I would tend to say that in the beginning we're not sure what we're feeling and with society not necessarily embracing CDing, it is a very personal thing we don't discuss.

It's not so much that it's a person thing as that it's a one-way street. You can go from being presumed gender-normative to something else in another persons' eyes, but you can't really go back again. As a result people think long and hard about whether or not they want to go down that path.

Oddly, though I've entered into entirely new territory with people I've met this year who have never known me as male at all. Last night at a fancy dress event my wife and I attended she was fielding questions about the best places in our area to meet other lesbians.

But we are social creatures (hey, we're on this forum as proof). . .

That we are, and I think it's the obvious counter-pressure to the societal norms that put us in the closet about who we are in the first place. That tension isn't especially healthy and so we tend to measure the pros and cons in deciding who to come out to and when. The need to share seems to get stronger over time, and again it's a completely individual question of when or if it ever gets to the point that we just can't abide hiding from everyone in our lives any longer.

[April Rose]

Good post, Anne. This is a rich vein to mine. Over the years how I've felt about secrecy vs. freedom and connection has changed several times. As our relationships change over time; dependent, independent, single, dating, married,parent,etc. Each one of these stages has its unique complications for us, but, it has its complications for everyone, Gender challenged or not.

In my own case, I was in my early twenties, and had been living on my own for a few years before my need to communicate my feelings overcame my anxiety, and, let's face it, shame. I was going through a risk taking, antiauthority phase of my life. I ended up telling quite a few people. But, the funny thing is, I didn't dress in front of any of those friends. At least not at that time. I still know a few of those people, and when we've gotten together, it's never come up. A few years Later, I met the woman who would be my life partner. It didn't take me long to come out to her. Dressing followed quickly, as the next logical step.

It was an easy, positive start, but we were young and in love. We're still together, but as people grow, they change and so do their circumstances. My expression of my gender challenges, and as a consequence her acceptance of the situation, have undergone some significant ups and downs as time has gone on. Matters of judgement, personal anxieties , the exigencies of parenthood, the political and social atmosphere where a person lives: It would be easier if it was just a gender situation, but there's so much more involved.

We seem to have come to a place that accommodates the both of us, and I am content, but that is not the same as being "out". I would like to at least meet other crossdressers, but this causes my wife anxiety, so I will have to tread cautiously. (I'm not talking about going out dressed, I'm thinking more along the lines of meeting for lunch.)

It's a dynamic situation, with endlessly changing circumstances, for everyone, not just the gender community, but ultimately, the more communication the better.

[Andrea Elise]

I am aware that this thread has sat cold for two and a half months.

I am a very private person.

I feel that my home is the one place that I will do as I please, be as comfortable as I like.

In that respect, I am "out" to my wife. I am also "out" to a good CD friend, but as I am anxious over being seen in public, I have never dressed during visits with my CD friend, although she is very open about dressing and has no hang up about being dressed in public.

My wife worries about the neighbors, gossip, reputation... So, I keep it confined to inside my home.

As to desire to be social, if it were not for this forum, I would not have rekindled my relationship with my wife and I would not be married. Thirty years ago I would have never considered discussing my CDing with anyone. Period. I would rather death than have been found out! Out in public, dressed? Better to die a thousand deaths than to be seen like that in public! (I am referring only to myself.)

I do not feel that way since I have gotten older. I do not feel so much that way now that society seems semi accepting of others eccentricities. Then, there are things that I enjoy that I feel are simply not anyone else's business.

Yes, for me, it is an exciting thought to be dressed in group with other CDs. I would like that. If only I could get by all of my inhibition to it. And deal with my self image issue.

Yes, it is easier, for me, over time. I have, over many years, become much more relaxed about who I am. Hard for me to think back in time to when I was scared to death someone might see me or find out.

Being alone and living in fear will warp your soul.

Andrea

[Paula G]

This is an interesting question, certainly who I am prepared to be seen by has changed over the years, but maybe not in the same way as some of you other ladies. Until quite recently I was afraid to be seen by anyone, anyone at all. After coming out to my wife I had hoped that she may allow me to be dressed around her when I our daughter is not about, but at her current level of acceptance that is still a big no no.

Other CDs? well outside of this forum I don’t know any, since joining the forum I must say there are a few members that I would love to meet up with, but as much because they sound like people I would like as because of our shared compulsion. I have a suspicion that a group of cross dressers is more obvious than a either a single cross dresser or a single CD within a group of civilians. My aim is to not stand out, too much, that is already difficult due to my size and shape, if I was with someone else towering above the other ladies with size 9 shoes then I might feel the centre of attention, even if we were not. However having said all this I do like to go out, and so far my excursions have been lone ones. I am of the strong opinion that we are both safest, and most acceptable amongst other people. I now avoid lonely places while dressed, rather I will go to busy shopping centres, coffee shops etc. I plan a couple of visits to galleries and maybe a concert would be nice. I want to be able to enjoy the same things as Paula a I do as Paul. I also want to explore some of things where Paul and Paula have different tastes. I was thinking of adding this as a separate post, but here goes.

When I am dressed I drink Latte, in drab I have cappuccino, I eat less, but more likely to have a small pastry, than a substantial sandwich, I am more deferential, more likely to ask than to assert, is this just another expression of my female side, or do I become a different persona, I suspect it is the former, but is this just me? Or do other members have the same sort of experience?

I think I would enjoy little more than the opportunity to meet a GG friend for lunch, but that means I will have to come out to someone else, just who?

[Susan]

For the past two years I have been going out in public so I have no idea how many have seen me in that time. For the vast majority of my life I have kept it hidden, only my wife knew of my dressing, I was the typical closetted CD. No longer, I could not return to that situation.

One thing is certain in this gift, it does not stay static. I do not know where it will ultimately lead but as of now, I am happy where I am.

[Absaroka]

Anne it's a great topic and I'm sorry I missed it back when it got started.

I've been coming to this forum for about 6 years now, and dressing a lot for about 7. I think my attitudes have changed some as a result to participating here.

Prior to participating in on line things I talked, or more accurately listened, to very few things concerning CDing. Back in college in the mid 70's as a psych major I sometimes had a few inklings, and talked a couple of times about it. But not much.

After coming here I started to just know more about who we are, which made it easier to accept in myself. The idea of being found out became less unthinkable. I talked to my 12 step sponsor about it, something I could not have contemplated at another time.

I've dropped hints to my wife. I've talked to my sponsor and therapist about this and they are in agreement that she doesn't seem to want to know more.

I keep women's tees and leggings in my guy underwear drawer. It's a non event. Occaisionally when I'm behind in laundry and have no clean guy underwear I borrow my wifes and she doesn't mind. (the most important part of this to her is the fact that hers are a bit too small for me, which she likes) I go for walks in the daytime in my neighborhood with most of my femme clothes on, secure that people will mistake me for a man wearing men's clothing. I wouldn't have dared that a few years ago.

So I can't say that these forums have made me more out, but they have made me less panic stricken over being caught.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Hmmm... missed this thread the first time around.

I have a lot of difficulty explaining to family, friends, and colleagues the "socializing" aspect of crossdressing. I'm sure that, despite the social "semi-acceptance" Andrea Elise refers to above, most people, deep down inside, still tend to view crossdressing as just another "sexual perversion" (and, please, if you find me using another set of quotation marks, you can "shoot" me!).

I try to explain to those around me that, no, it's not enough for me to just dress up and prance around the apartment; I have a strong desire--and it's a desire that's an integral part of my crossdressing--to be SEEN by others. I think this is only natural (and, as I said some years ago on this very forum, this may partly explain why CDs have this compulsion to take photos of themselves; it's so that, at the very least, they, themselves, can see themselves from the outside, so to speak, and be looked upon as female by some Other even if that Other is not really any Other other than themselves); I say this is only natural because I do believe identity--any identity, not just a transgender one--is never something created and built in a social vacuum. We need the mirror that is the gaze of other people, whether friends or strangers.

There are times when a woman, say, goes out on the town, where she wants to be seen as a woman (as opposed to, say, as just another human being). Same goes for men wanting to be seen as men. In our case (well, for some of us, anyway), that woman that wants to be seen actually lives on the inside, behind the facade of a man. It's an untenable situation, one that can lead to extremely high levels of stress. As crossdressers, that feminine component of our identity can sometimes fairly scream to get out and be seen. Some never act upon it; others take photos and pass them around; a very few actually go out there and let the woman inside mingle with the world. And, no surprise, they report that this makes them happy and lowers their stress levels.

A few years ago, when I had my "transgender crisis" (almost quit my job, amongst other things, but eventually came out to my boss and to all my colleagues), this was the crux: I hadn't dressed publically in a very long time, too long a time. My boss, instead of accepting my resignation, gave me two months off, paid, saying that he expected me to "do what I needed to do" in order to get my head back on straight. By this he meant, dress up, go out, have fun as my alter ego, but also, consult, see a sexologist and/or a therapist, get this out of my system and in the open. I did all of the above (with mixed results, I'll admit). But I did it. And it felt great. One of my colleagues-slash-friends also participated, hanging with "Christina" on one memorable evening. She drove us around from café to bar to restaurant to café. Thouroughly enjoyable, I must say.

And this is just it; sexual perversion was the furthest thing from my (or anyone's) mind that night. The thrill resided strictly in finally, after all this time, having someone other than myself being able to be sociable, and to interact, with the "woman inside me." (I use quotation marks because I know I'm not two different people, obviously; I'm just me and I'm both the woman inside and the man outside--hence, stress and anxiety.)

Now, partnered as I am, my social female self has gone to ground these past few years. Although I went out this past Halloween as CJ, I've been asked by my SO to not take this outside of our home. And I try my damndest to comply. Although Roxanne insists she'd be okay with me dressing around the apartment, I'm reluctant to do so simply because I feel that my crossdressing is more of an either/or thing; in other words, either I can be seen as Christina or I can't. Sashaying around in heels, pantyhose, and a nightgown in the privacy of my own home just doesn't really do it for me, socially speaking (especially given the fact that most people I know also know that I'm Christina, too, and they wonder when they'll ever meet me as such).

I don't know what the future holds for me. I just know it's coming.

Great thread.

Love,
CJ

[Anita]

Hi Anne--
This thread must have been a Will-o-the-wisp; if I saw it, it was a brief flash and then it was gone. Good topic!

I said in my "Beginnings" post that the return of my crossdressing after 32 years scared me, because I could see that it was all or nothing; if I dressed at all, I was going to be going out. It was not something I could negotiate; it just was.

Kimberly wrote:

The need to share seems to get stronger over time, and again it's a completely individual question of when or if it ever gets to the point that we just can't abide hiding from everyone in our lives any longer.

The need to share does seem to get stronger over time. In my case, it built up under the surface; I was not aware of the tension at all, until it suddenly appeared, full-blown.

But even so, the desire to keep expanding the sharing continued for a number of years, for me.

CJ wrote:

I try to explain to those around me that, no, it's not enough for me to just dress up and prance around the apartment; I have a strong desire--and it's a desire that's an integral part of my crossdressing--to be SEEN by others.

There is a need to be seen, and also a need to act from that identity. I wanted to hear how 'she' would speak, for instance. Even if the voice isn't up to what I'd like it to be, it isn't enough to be a silent figure over in the corner.

I do see this new identity as a form of art, really. It's like painting a picture, writing a poem, or building a piece of furniture. We want to share our creations with other people, and normally people are OK with that. It's society's baggage that says that this form of art is NOT OK. And I can see the reasons why, but it doesn't make me happy about the situation.

I say this is only natural because I do believe identity--any identity, not just a transgender one--is never something created and built in a social vacuum. We need the mirror that is the gaze of other people, whether friends or strangers.

I ran into exactly the same situation when I wanted to become a rock singer and/or guitarist. I was a non-singing trumpet player for years.
I had to overcome a lot of prejudice to "come out" as a rock singer. Later, there was some more prejudice to becoming a guitarist.

In high school, I stifled these desires; it was just unthinkable to want to do this. I even had friends who were rock musicians, and I still could not admit to wanting to try to join them. But by the time I was in college, it became unbearable to me. I quit school to try to be a full-time musician. It didn't even matter that I had to enlist in the army because of this; I was determined to be this new person.

That was my first experience of trying to create a new identity that people around me did not approve of. My sister summed it up pretty well: "You're no Mick Jagger." In other words, who do you think you are? We know who you are, and we'll ridicule any attempts to create a new identity.

So it takes a lot of courage to create a new identity, and when it's one that crosses gender lines, it's totally outside the norm of what people expect.

To answer your question, Anne, it's both yes and no. I told people about my new identity, but I did not become 'her' when I was around them. At the same time, I did go to more and more places and events dressed. So I restrained my need to expand with certain people, while expressing it to the public in general.

[Davita]

My long and short of it... I will dress around anyone who will let me. I have people that know and there used to be a batch that knew but never saw a picture or anything. Now if they know, they have seen at least a picture.

From those that know, not everyone wants to meet me in person; that's okay. Like I said, I'll dress around anyone who will let me. I won't force me on them.

[Gillian]

I think that we all have a need to be loved, accepted and respected by others. Within the sense of being someone other than what fits the "norm", we are boxed in so to speak. Being boxed into a "closet" we are looking to get out and so we may get the love, acceptance and respect that we all long for. The question is, does the fear out weigh the desire for the three things. If we fear rejection from our SO, then we say nothing. What about rejection from society? CD clubs and message boards are there for us to get some feeling of normality. But, what is normal? I admit that the only one who about my "habits" is my SO. We have come to a mutual understanding of how far things go, and I am ok with it. I am loved, accepted and respected by my SO, and that is ok. Outside of this it may be another story. Do I want to risk a loss of those three in another arena of life, no not at this time. Yes, we are social creatures, and it is our desire to be within society that can put us back into the box, or "closet".

[Anne]

Thanks all for continuing the discussion. I myself am still at the "don't ask, don't tell" point with my SO but I would like to crack the nut in a baby step. It's such a big step.

But I view the socialness and it is great to read your replies, it echoes some of my thoughts on the subject.

You've all given me the gift of your insight this holiday season, thank you all.

Anne

[Paula G]

I think that it is probably better that your SO does know, however learn from others' mistakes and be carefull. Although it was not my conscous intention at the time, I believe that I let myself get caught "in the act", this led to a difficult time, and initially my wife went out of her way to make it clear that she did not want me to dress at all. We now have a tacit agreement that it should be a lone occupation that should be secret as far as it effects her or the family. I hope one day that we will be able to talk about this again and relax her rules a little. I do wonder if I had broached the subject more gently if she would have been more understanding.

[Absaroka]

CJ I absolutely loved your response and you've provided a great deal of food for thought.

I remember a few years ago when you spent a week en femme and were talking with a new therapist and were quite discouraged about it all. I'm glad you seem to have found what works for you.

The topic of letting us see us for who we really are is a vast one. It happened a lot with me at one time with respect to male clothing. I have a lot of male clothes that I like and enjoy, however the standard office uniform of suit and tie is not one of them. In particular I hated how you had to be careful not to damage them at all times, and how expensive they were. Also how incredibly confining they were.

I enjoy wearing my girl clothes and although with many of them at this point I can wear them publicly and look a lot like a man in mens clothing, I do in some ways feel free when I wear them. I've never gotten around to going to any crossdressing events, partly because I only go about halfways in my dressing and figure I'd probably offend some folks there. But with the few people I talk about it with, I find that I really enjoy talking about it.

I think the need to tell people, to be public, is partly the result of the weight of the secrecy we have imposed on ourselves or had imposed upon us by consequences. But as you say there is more, the aspect of just portraying who we really are. After all, wearing jeans is not a secret, but wearing a suit and tie used to feel like a huge lie.

Great thread

[Bernice]

Fascinating stuff... and always a treat to read from the book of CJ.

Me personally, I get no relief whatsoever from dressing in women's pants. Bifurcation is what I hate most about the clothes I am "supposed to wear".

So for me, there is no hope of ever going out dressed enfemme and being mistaken for a man in men's clothing.

Strangely enough, unlike some others here, I am not one who has to be all-out or not at all, unless I leave safety of the house. I'm quite myself around the house in just a pullover dress over underwear for either gender, and bare feet (or even men's sandals). I haven't been all dolled-up (or out) in over a year. It's a lot of work! That is for me the biggest reason I take pictures. It seems a waste to not commemorate the event of being all dolled-up without pictures.

Being unemployed yet again, I can now go most of a week without having to put on pants, unless to go to the grocery store or to put out the trash.

Hugs,

Bernice