Hi Jessie,
Yes, I agree with you; it's important to keep in mind the cultural context in which these texts were written (most of them almost 2,000 years ago). Society is much different today than it was then. Still, much of the basic tenets of the major faiths may still apply, especially those that are more universal and ethical in scope.
You'll find variations of the Golden Rule in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism, Shinto, and in countless aboriginal and tribal religions. They all say basically the same thing: treat other people as you'd want them to treat you (the positive version) and don't do to others what you wouldn't want them to do to you (the negative version). Again, Jessie, you're right; this is something we can all hope to abide by, whether or not we consider ourselves religious.
Love,
Christina
Crossdressing and religion
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
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Carolynn
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 2754
- Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:52 pm
- Location: Oklahoma City area
- Contact:
Hi Christina and everyone.
I have read your posts with some interest. Christina, like you I had to search to try to come to terms with myself after I was told by a preacher that people like me (in the abstract, as I asked the question in a general sense) were not very good people. I felt that I was, and that made me question other precepts of the church I was being raised in. That led me into a three year study, off and on, of comparative religions, "mythologies" (ie. religions other than yours
) development of religious thought from shamanism, to larger scale professional religious practitioners, the politically affirming god-kings in city states, the parallel and competing functions of church and king in Europe, the unilateral siezure of entire religions by politicians to centralize their control, religious fundamentalism and revitalization movements that breed sects, and then I took a long look at the entire phenomena and related it to socialism and communism where the state attempts to replace religion and inculcate the same sort of religious fervor in their subjects.
About the same time, I found an interest in astronomy, derived from science fiction and from identifying the western classical constellations. First with a pair of binoculars, then with telescopes of increasing power, I began to recognize the unfathomable immensity of the Universe. It was about then I also realized the incomprehensible conceit of the primary precept of many of the religions and mythologies I had studied.
On the scale of the universe, the very modest star harboring our little world is so small and insignificant that it would not be easily resolved by even our poor worlds most powerful of instruments from even the other side of our own galalxy. Yet, on this mote there seems to exist, possibly, well, creatures who like to call themselves human beings. Though already of infinitesimal scope, these human beings believe that there is an all creator who, having created all the universe, all the galaxies, all the stars, and their planets and miscellaneous rocks, the atoms and their protons and electrons, that/these creator/s would take an interest in one mote representing our little planet, to the extent that it also caused to be in one way or another, on this one tiny mote the spark that we call life. Further, they maintain that this entity would bring about immeasurably small things (on the scale of the universe, or even our local galaxy) to worship it/them, either as a thing, or as a creating principle. Not only that, often it created these motes in it's own image!:lol:
For several weeks after I recognized this absurdity, I was unable to listen to the news (we were supposed to for Current Events discussion) without having to suppress either nausea or peals of laughter. It took most of those weeks before I was able to come to something of a decision that even though we were little more than nothing, even all added together, in the scale of the universe, I did care about others of those little sparks and I would have to live within the "human scale" to be with them.
So, here we are, little tadpoles in small ponds, swimming about mindlessly, dumbly allowing larger frogs to burn our brief flickers of what passes for life in their competiton for dominance over each small pond, however they define the pond (control of creatures, land, or "wealth" or whatever they use to keep score), which resides on a speck of dust on a beach of stars of an ocean of gas and dust that most of them have never lifted their eyes toward, and they could never even begin to comprehend it should that happen. And in spite of knowing our own insignificance and brief span in the scale of the Universe, we still let others define what we shall wear, what we should think, what we should believe in, and whom we should let "lead" us.
Go Figure!
I have read your posts with some interest. Christina, like you I had to search to try to come to terms with myself after I was told by a preacher that people like me (in the abstract, as I asked the question in a general sense) were not very good people. I felt that I was, and that made me question other precepts of the church I was being raised in. That led me into a three year study, off and on, of comparative religions, "mythologies" (ie. religions other than yours
) development of religious thought from shamanism, to larger scale professional religious practitioners, the politically affirming god-kings in city states, the parallel and competing functions of church and king in Europe, the unilateral siezure of entire religions by politicians to centralize their control, religious fundamentalism and revitalization movements that breed sects, and then I took a long look at the entire phenomena and related it to socialism and communism where the state attempts to replace religion and inculcate the same sort of religious fervor in their subjects. About the same time, I found an interest in astronomy, derived from science fiction and from identifying the western classical constellations. First with a pair of binoculars, then with telescopes of increasing power, I began to recognize the unfathomable immensity of the Universe. It was about then I also realized the incomprehensible conceit of the primary precept of many of the religions and mythologies I had studied.
On the scale of the universe, the very modest star harboring our little world is so small and insignificant that it would not be easily resolved by even our poor worlds most powerful of instruments from even the other side of our own galalxy. Yet, on this mote there seems to exist, possibly, well, creatures who like to call themselves human beings. Though already of infinitesimal scope, these human beings believe that there is an all creator who, having created all the universe, all the galaxies, all the stars, and their planets and miscellaneous rocks, the atoms and their protons and electrons, that/these creator/s would take an interest in one mote representing our little planet, to the extent that it also caused to be in one way or another, on this one tiny mote the spark that we call life. Further, they maintain that this entity would bring about immeasurably small things (on the scale of the universe, or even our local galaxy) to worship it/them, either as a thing, or as a creating principle. Not only that, often it created these motes in it's own image!:lol:
For several weeks after I recognized this absurdity, I was unable to listen to the news (we were supposed to for Current Events discussion) without having to suppress either nausea or peals of laughter. It took most of those weeks before I was able to come to something of a decision that even though we were little more than nothing, even all added together, in the scale of the universe, I did care about others of those little sparks and I would have to live within the "human scale" to be with them.
So, here we are, little tadpoles in small ponds, swimming about mindlessly, dumbly allowing larger frogs to burn our brief flickers of what passes for life in their competiton for dominance over each small pond, however they define the pond (control of creatures, land, or "wealth" or whatever they use to keep score), which resides on a speck of dust on a beach of stars of an ocean of gas and dust that most of them have never lifted their eyes toward, and they could never even begin to comprehend it should that happen. And in spite of knowing our own insignificance and brief span in the scale of the Universe, we still let others define what we shall wear, what we should think, what we should believe in, and whom we should let "lead" us.
Go Figure!
"It’s not given to anyone to have no regrets; only to decide, through the choices we make, which regrets we’ll have,"
David Weber – In Fury Born
David Weber – In Fury Born
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi Carolynn,
Well! There's nothing to add to that, girl! Whew!
What I find admirable about that kind of cosmic perspective is that it becomes unnecessary to call other people on their religious beliefs. They're all part of the strange beauty we "tadpoles" have within us, just by the fact that we are, that we exist at all...
In such a way of looking at the world, does it still make sense to stifle our own voice, to blow out our own tiny flame, to remain afraid of our own vast possibilities, by endlessly fretting over what other people will think? No, I don't think so.
To paraphrase Carl Sagan: We are starstuff considering itself. As such, I can find as much pleasure in searching out the nebula in Orion's belt as I can watching a toddler meet a kitten for the very first time (or my "slipping into something more comfortable," for that matter!). It's all good.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Carolynn.
Love,
CJ
Well! There's nothing to add to that, girl! Whew!
What I find admirable about that kind of cosmic perspective is that it becomes unnecessary to call other people on their religious beliefs. They're all part of the strange beauty we "tadpoles" have within us, just by the fact that we are, that we exist at all...In such a way of looking at the world, does it still make sense to stifle our own voice, to blow out our own tiny flame, to remain afraid of our own vast possibilities, by endlessly fretting over what other people will think? No, I don't think so.
To paraphrase Carl Sagan: We are starstuff considering itself. As such, I can find as much pleasure in searching out the nebula in Orion's belt as I can watching a toddler meet a kitten for the very first time (or my "slipping into something more comfortable," for that matter!). It's all good.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Carolynn.
Love,
CJ
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Gaven McLaren
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 697
- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:29 am
- Location: San Ramon, CA
- Contact:
Alright time for my two cents on this topic. Please forgive me if I offend some one not my intent. As for religion I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. Though I jumped ship as it was when I got old enough to do outside reading and started to notice that I was surrounded by hypocrites. That was about age 11 or 12 so before I got back into wearing female clothes. So I spent a few years where I completly denounced all religion. Which of course gave me a very open mind where I could look at religion as a whole. I noticed one real truth which was hit on here treat people how you wanted to be treated. Well on top of starting to crossdress which according to my early upbringing was wrong so I was confilcted by both religion and by wanting to wear girls clothes. Well a few years ago I found a religion that I fit better into as it took the golden rule a little farther. I am talking about the Wicca and the rule of three. The best thing is modern Wicca does not force anyone to do anything they do not want to. What drew me to Wicca and the Norse gods is that there is no real good and evil. As you cannot have one with out the other. Also even in the most evil you will find some good.
::passes the soapbox and the mic to someone else::
::passes the soapbox and the mic to someone else::
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons. As you are crunchy and good with chocolate!
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Jessie
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1102
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:44 pm
- Location: Eastern Washington
- Contact:
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Celia
- Moderator and "Princess of Chat"
- Posts: 1832
- Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 12:32 am
- Location: Western Washington
Jessie,
I don't know that I'd be the best one to answer this, but, as I'm technically a Buddhist, I could offer my perceptions on the matter.
Buddhism is about liberation. As long as we don't harm others there is nothing particularly wrong with our crossdressing. I'm not talking about the perception of harm here, but actual harm; Buddhism doesn't oblige it's practitioners to engage in behavior that necessarily pleases everyone. If we get lost in our practice of crossdressing to the extent that we lose sight of our goals as Buddhists, then we need to refocus on our pursuit of enlightenment; but such isn't a problem with the specific behavior so much as it's a problem with priorities.
Don't get me wrong--I'm sure there are individual Buddhists (perhaps even entire sects!) who have a bug up the bum about gender variance. They just aren't very representative of the religion as a whole.
Anyway, that's my read of the situation--I hope it helps.
Yours,
Celia
I don't know that I'd be the best one to answer this, but, as I'm technically a Buddhist, I could offer my perceptions on the matter.
Buddhism is about liberation. As long as we don't harm others there is nothing particularly wrong with our crossdressing. I'm not talking about the perception of harm here, but actual harm; Buddhism doesn't oblige it's practitioners to engage in behavior that necessarily pleases everyone. If we get lost in our practice of crossdressing to the extent that we lose sight of our goals as Buddhists, then we need to refocus on our pursuit of enlightenment; but such isn't a problem with the specific behavior so much as it's a problem with priorities.
Don't get me wrong--I'm sure there are individual Buddhists (perhaps even entire sects!) who have a bug up the bum about gender variance. They just aren't very representative of the religion as a whole.
Anyway, that's my read of the situation--I hope it helps.
Yours,
Celia
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Yes, I agree with Celia. As one who strongly tends toward Buddhism myself, the issue of "re-focusing" is paramount. In Buddhism, a lot of emphasis is put on developing a practice, a way of being more fully aware, of being "mindful," in the hopes that it will help us overcome some of the attachments that poison our existence and prevent us from liberating ourselves and achieving a state of serenity and inner peace. Chief among these attachments are those that are the result of our greed, ignorance, and hatred.
Buddhism also has its own version of the Ten Commandments, traditionally called the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path (or the Middle Way):
The Four Noble Truths
-- there is suffering in life; to live is to suffer
-- the origin of that pain is in our attachments, emotional, sensual, or otherwise
-- there is a way to end that pain and suffering, to let go of it
-- the way to end that suffering is to follow these few basic precepts:
The Eightfold Path (or the Middle Way)
-- see the world as it is, not as you wish it were
-- live in the world in good faith, with goodwill and harmless intent
-- don't hurt others by what you say
-- don't hurt others by how you behave
-- don't let the work you do hurt others (and this includes animals)
-- strive to understand who you are
-- strive to be as fully aware as possible, from moment to moment
-- make it a habit to go, and to stay, within yourself, in the "empty" fullness of your own soul
So, Jessie, I'm still not sure how crossdressing would fit in here. Perhaps, as per the second Noble Truth, our suffering may be the result of our attachment to the practice of crossdressing. However, that's merely a statement, not an injuction to stop wearing women's clothing. And, aside from the possibility of our behaviour causing pain to others (SOs, family, etc.), I don't really see how expressing this side of ourselves is in any way contrary to how the Buddha suggested we may gain some measure of inner peace, calm, serenity, and healthy detachment.
Again, like Celia, this is my own take on the matter. As Celia remarked, there are as many variations in Buddhism as there are in Christianity; however, most of them hold fast to the precepts outlined above. As with any spiritual ideals, they're often difficult to follow, especially in a world as hectic as our own, where we're constantly being drawn out of ourselves, so to speak. I often don't succeed as much as I'd want to. But I can accept that (and that's part of seeing the world as it is, not as I wish it were); when I realize I've fallen by the wayside, I just get back on the path and continue walking.
I hope this may have "enlightened" you a bit on the subject, Jessie.
Love,
Christina
Yes, I agree with Celia. As one who strongly tends toward Buddhism myself, the issue of "re-focusing" is paramount. In Buddhism, a lot of emphasis is put on developing a practice, a way of being more fully aware, of being "mindful," in the hopes that it will help us overcome some of the attachments that poison our existence and prevent us from liberating ourselves and achieving a state of serenity and inner peace. Chief among these attachments are those that are the result of our greed, ignorance, and hatred.
Buddhism also has its own version of the Ten Commandments, traditionally called the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path (or the Middle Way):
The Four Noble Truths
-- there is suffering in life; to live is to suffer
-- the origin of that pain is in our attachments, emotional, sensual, or otherwise
-- there is a way to end that pain and suffering, to let go of it
-- the way to end that suffering is to follow these few basic precepts:
The Eightfold Path (or the Middle Way)
-- see the world as it is, not as you wish it were
-- live in the world in good faith, with goodwill and harmless intent
-- don't hurt others by what you say
-- don't hurt others by how you behave
-- don't let the work you do hurt others (and this includes animals)
-- strive to understand who you are
-- strive to be as fully aware as possible, from moment to moment
-- make it a habit to go, and to stay, within yourself, in the "empty" fullness of your own soul
So, Jessie, I'm still not sure how crossdressing would fit in here. Perhaps, as per the second Noble Truth, our suffering may be the result of our attachment to the practice of crossdressing. However, that's merely a statement, not an injuction to stop wearing women's clothing. And, aside from the possibility of our behaviour causing pain to others (SOs, family, etc.), I don't really see how expressing this side of ourselves is in any way contrary to how the Buddha suggested we may gain some measure of inner peace, calm, serenity, and healthy detachment.
Again, like Celia, this is my own take on the matter. As Celia remarked, there are as many variations in Buddhism as there are in Christianity; however, most of them hold fast to the precepts outlined above. As with any spiritual ideals, they're often difficult to follow, especially in a world as hectic as our own, where we're constantly being drawn out of ourselves, so to speak. I often don't succeed as much as I'd want to. But I can accept that (and that's part of seeing the world as it is, not as I wish it were); when I realize I've fallen by the wayside, I just get back on the path and continue walking.
I hope this may have "enlightened" you a bit on the subject, Jessie.
Love,
Christina
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Kersten Lee
- Miss Platinum Goddess
- Posts: 386
- Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:05 am
- Location: Central Nebraska
Everyone,
I enjoyed this discussion by everyone very much. I was very similar
to CJ (?) who discussed being brought up and feeling ashamed and
condemned for our feelings. I am since seeing that what our feelings
are in our hearts and minds defines our exaltaion or the evil in us.
A lot of us have grown beyond believing that cross dressing in and of
itself is evil or sinful. Those that haven't come to that conclusion yet,
I challenge to read word for word Genisis through Deuteronomy. By
what is written a lot of people are condemned the same for all manner of
beliefs and activities. And there are also so many things promoted, that in
western civilization, are considered criminal and worth criminal
prosecution.
Supporting each other and caring for each other here, is a good and
higher calling. Condemning others when they don't hurt others or
themselves is not good. Let's leave God do his job. In the mean time
lets love others and ourselves. Jesus also said, let he who has no sin
cast the first stone. I believe it was concerned with a mob who were to
stone a prostitute to death. In the first Books I mentioned, there is an
order to kill a woman if she is found not to be a virgin on her wedding
night. Surely we all can evolve beyond following orders by anyone
with an agenda. How many defendents in war crime trials say, I am
innocent, I was only following orders.
I love independent thinkers, even those with whom I disaggree.
I am an American and a Christian but I will always defend others rights
to self determination and the right to voice and express their views
what ever they might be. Truth and falsehood will always be exposed
in the day light. These discussions have also caused me to see some of
my beliefs have been false. We all can grow by sharing.
Kersten
I enjoyed this discussion by everyone very much. I was very similar
to CJ (?) who discussed being brought up and feeling ashamed and
condemned for our feelings. I am since seeing that what our feelings
are in our hearts and minds defines our exaltaion or the evil in us.
A lot of us have grown beyond believing that cross dressing in and of
itself is evil or sinful. Those that haven't come to that conclusion yet,
I challenge to read word for word Genisis through Deuteronomy. By
what is written a lot of people are condemned the same for all manner of
beliefs and activities. And there are also so many things promoted, that in
western civilization, are considered criminal and worth criminal
prosecution.
Supporting each other and caring for each other here, is a good and
higher calling. Condemning others when they don't hurt others or
themselves is not good. Let's leave God do his job. In the mean time
lets love others and ourselves. Jesus also said, let he who has no sin
cast the first stone. I believe it was concerned with a mob who were to
stone a prostitute to death. In the first Books I mentioned, there is an
order to kill a woman if she is found not to be a virgin on her wedding
night. Surely we all can evolve beyond following orders by anyone
with an agenda. How many defendents in war crime trials say, I am
innocent, I was only following orders.
I love independent thinkers, even those with whom I disaggree.
I am an American and a Christian but I will always defend others rights
to self determination and the right to voice and express their views
what ever they might be. Truth and falsehood will always be exposed
in the day light. These discussions have also caused me to see some of
my beliefs have been false. We all can grow by sharing.
Kersten
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Josey
- Miss Platinum Goddess
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:55 am
- Location: North Central Florida
Hi CJ,
Thanks for the wonderful post. Most of my life, I have felt the conflict brought about by a Catholic upbringing. I gave up Catholcism many years ago and now just refer to myself as a Christian but I often wonder about what I do in the eyes of God.
You posted a line or 2 of Psalms which actually provides the answer.
All the days ordained for me
were written in Your book
before one of them came to be.
Everything that any of us do, accoding to this Psalm, was predertermined so all we are doing is what is written in God's book. How, therefore, can we be doing something wrong. Of course, the same argument could be used for murder, but - - - -!
Anyway, it did make me feel better. Thanks again, CJ.
Thanks for the wonderful post. Most of my life, I have felt the conflict brought about by a Catholic upbringing. I gave up Catholcism many years ago and now just refer to myself as a Christian but I often wonder about what I do in the eyes of God.
You posted a line or 2 of Psalms which actually provides the answer.
All the days ordained for me
were written in Your book
before one of them came to be.
Everything that any of us do, accoding to this Psalm, was predertermined so all we are doing is what is written in God's book. How, therefore, can we be doing something wrong. Of course, the same argument could be used for murder, but - - - -!
Anyway, it did make me feel better.
Thanks again, CJ."The early bird catches the worm...But... It's the second mouse that gets the cheese"
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Bernice
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 615
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:24 pm
- Location: Northeast Kansas
From one of my first posts, on Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:29 pm:
http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... highlight=
"For what it's worth, I'm inclined to believe we should not feel any religious guilt over crossdressing. To thine own self be true!
"Rikki, of http://www.rosesforum.tv/ wrote: The only specific verse in the bible that claims that cross dressing is an "abomination to the Lord", Deuteronomy Ch 22 v 5 has been badly mistranslated. What is actually says roughly translated is "Though shalt not dress a woman or weak person in the armour of a man and send them to war."
"There is a book I have NOT read, by a TG person called Vanessa Sheridan, and Virginia Ramey Mollenkott. Both are Christians and they discuss trying to reconcile their faith with the way they are. Both have families who support them and strife to address issues round adhering to a traditionally, ant-Trans, and anti-gay faith, with their own experiences. The book is called "Transgender journeys". Published by Pilgrim Press. Perhaps this could assist you in finding peace within you.
"Here in Kansas we deal with a boisterous religious zealot named Fred Phelps. His "calling" is to harrass gays and lesbians or anyone he thinks might be homosexual or anyone who fails to hate homosexuals enough to suit him. He puts being a Baptist minister in a very unfavorable light. We (Straight and homosexual alike) respond with bumper stickers that say "Hatred is NOT a family value". The best thing to do is ignore him.
"I'm no religious expert. I leave that to others, but know that I support you!"
Hugs...
Bernice
http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... highlight=
"For what it's worth, I'm inclined to believe we should not feel any religious guilt over crossdressing. To thine own self be true!
"Rikki, of http://www.rosesforum.tv/ wrote: The only specific verse in the bible that claims that cross dressing is an "abomination to the Lord", Deuteronomy Ch 22 v 5 has been badly mistranslated. What is actually says roughly translated is "Though shalt not dress a woman or weak person in the armour of a man and send them to war."
"There is a book I have NOT read, by a TG person called Vanessa Sheridan, and Virginia Ramey Mollenkott. Both are Christians and they discuss trying to reconcile their faith with the way they are. Both have families who support them and strife to address issues round adhering to a traditionally, ant-Trans, and anti-gay faith, with their own experiences. The book is called "Transgender journeys". Published by Pilgrim Press. Perhaps this could assist you in finding peace within you.
"Here in Kansas we deal with a boisterous religious zealot named Fred Phelps. His "calling" is to harrass gays and lesbians or anyone he thinks might be homosexual or anyone who fails to hate homosexuals enough to suit him. He puts being a Baptist minister in a very unfavorable light. We (Straight and homosexual alike) respond with bumper stickers that say "Hatred is NOT a family value". The best thing to do is ignore him.
"I'm no religious expert. I leave that to others, but know that I support you!"
Hugs...
Bernice
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Alexandra
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1149
- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:27 pm
- Location: In Monolith We Trust
I checked out Fred Phelps on the net . . . UGH!
Here's what Jerry Falwell said about Phelps: "A first class nut."
Here's Phelp's church's homepage: http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html
Here's what Jerry Falwell said about Phelps: "A first class nut."
Here's Phelp's church's homepage: http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html
Alexandra
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Kersten wrote: I love independent thinkers, even those with whom I disagree.
The Buddha's parting words (pronounced, allegedly, as he lay dying): "Be ye lamps unto yourselves." By this he meant: think, reflect, reason, and adhere only to that spirituality that squares with your own lived experience regarding both the meaning of your life as well as your sense of being connected to others and to the world generally. (This is why Buddhism is often considered a form of cognitive therapy rather than a religion, in the usual sense of the word.)
Bernice, Alexandra,
Fred Phelps's hatred has blinded him. He won't survive the next busy intersection he comes too.
Love,
CJ
Kersten wrote: I love independent thinkers, even those with whom I disagree.
The Buddha's parting words (pronounced, allegedly, as he lay dying): "Be ye lamps unto yourselves." By this he meant: think, reflect, reason, and adhere only to that spirituality that squares with your own lived experience regarding both the meaning of your life as well as your sense of being connected to others and to the world generally. (This is why Buddhism is often considered a form of cognitive therapy rather than a religion, in the usual sense of the word.)
Bernice, Alexandra,
Fred Phelps's hatred has blinded him. He won't survive the next busy intersection he comes too.
Love,
CJ