8 year old transexuals
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Martina
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8 year old transexuals
I watched a documentary about children from 8 years of age with gender issues last night and I found it very uncomfortable to watch and felt quite conflicted during it. Ironically I was all settled in for the night wearing a pretty nightie and panties watching TV on the sofa. I felt there was something not right about a mother and son shopping for skirts and dresses for the boy. There was a female to male TS who was beginning to date juvinile GGs who did not know his condition and I felt that that was very wrong and could damage the young GG who was only starting out. He also had an unrelated adult mentor, who was also a female to male TS, that administered his treatment. The various parents were visiting specialist doctors who discussed stopping puberty so that the child would not develop into an adult body and the long term concequences of this including medication for life. The 12 year olds where asked by their parents if they understood this. I felt the whole thing was boderline abuse. There is no way a 12 year old could be equiped to handle decisions like that. The parents, who most of which appeared to be quite wealthy, were handing over the responsibility of life changing decisions to children some of which may well grow out of their condition and lead normal lives if left alone. Does anybody else feel that this is going to far, that the children should be allowed to develop normally and make these decisions for themselves when they are mature enough.
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Ralitsa
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I do feel that this is going too far. Having children this age making such decisions is not a good idea. Even if they think this is what they want, they really do not have nearly enough information or experience with life, and there are so many changes between 8 and 25 that it's crazy to make any life long decisions at age 8.
It reminds me a lot of my daughter, who when she was 4 wanted to fly so she climebed on top of the bookshelf and was about to jump off into the toy box. When I told her she would break her leg if she tried that, she said "but I like to break my leg." Obviously, I decided that I was better equipped to make that decision than she was and now she still has 2 perfectly good legs.
It reminds me a lot of my daughter, who when she was 4 wanted to fly so she climebed on top of the bookshelf and was about to jump off into the toy box. When I told her she would break her leg if she tried that, she said "but I like to break my leg." Obviously, I decided that I was better equipped to make that decision than she was and now she still has 2 perfectly good legs.
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Carolynn
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Have you grown out of your condition? What makes you believe these youngsters will or can grow out of theirs? Can you stop dressing and never do it again? Have you asked youself why you dress, and whether ro not you would like to be able to live your life as female?
There is decent evidence that the TS condition is probably the result of the timing of development in the womb. This can affect brain development, which happens later than physical sex development, and that sets the pattern for at least the TS condition and possibly crossdressing and even homosexuality. The differential effects are seen in the amygdala within the part of the brain that is the supposed seat of gender and sexual response. Iin interactive PET scans where sections of the brain respond to stimulation (smells, taste, questions, etc.), these differences are clearly displayed in the BSTC 1 and 3 regions. of the amygdala. People who are M2F TS react to stimuli in the same pattern as cisgendered women, and F2Ms show the same pattern as csgendered men. The same pattern of gender reversal is seen in the neuron numbers and size of the BSTC(1), results repeated now in at least three studies in different countries (the latter is kinda hard to conduct as it is necessary that (1) the individual be dead and (2) have willed their bodies to science since the visual study involves thin sections of regions of the brain).
As far as the age of the kids in the program, awareness of the differences between the biological sexes develop as early as the latter part of the third year, or within the fourth year. That is when the kid says, "I am most like A rather than B, so I must be A". This cognitive process usually involves physical comparison (heard of playing doctor?) or comparison with the adults in their lives. Shortly after is when the confusion begins for the TS kid, as they have feelings that they see as contrary to the behavior of the adults who they are most "like" physically.
Strength of personality and the willingness of the parents to listen to their child determine the next path. Parents listening to their kids is a new thing, believe me. I asked my parents why they called me a "boy" and "he" instead of a "girl" and "her". I was told that was just because I was a boy and that ended that for them, but not for me. You were sorta blaming the parents because they were letting this happen, and noted they appeared to be among the more well off, financially. They were also better educated, and that is the varible that is important.
We know a lot more now about the development of the child in the womb. We are aware of the timing of developments that have to take place, including hormonal driven changes while the fetus is growing. The better educated the parents, the more they can understand about this and they can perceive their child's needs and differencs more effectively. Their decisions to allow their kids to live or experiment as their apparent preferred gender are not made laightly as some kind of Munchousen syndrome. It is born of real concern for their child. All the kids admitted to this program have strong beliefs about who they are, to the extent they tear the "wrong " clothes up and refuse to wear them. Nothing is done medically, no hormones for example, until they are older. Yes they do give them blockers pre-puberty, but those can be discontinued if the kid mihgt change their minds about who they are. It is new enough, that we doin't know if that will happen, but iamong the ones I do know who have struggled with this since their youth and are now in their teens, there have been no decisions that they are other than who they know themselves to be.
In my own case, my parents were not well educated in 1942. They depended on the expertise of others who were better educated. I was born with a visually intersex condition, during WWII. My father was going to be invited to the war shortly, and when the doctor suggested that I could be made a boy or a girl, my parents chose a boy. This medical practice was the result of flawed medical theory that believed that the brain was a blank slate when born, as they did not understaind the degree of development of the brain in the womb. Two surgeries over 4.5 years lauched me on a life of confusion where I could not form "normal" attachments or relationships with other people due to my awareness of my physical/mental "flaws", and I am now 68 years old. My body was contrary to my knowledge of myself, my sex parts were defective, but the most important thing was that I simply "knew" I was female within my mind and "normal" relationships just were not possible for me.. From my perspective, what the parents are doing along with Dr. Spack, is the right thing.
Perhaps your discomfort and conflict while watching the program was an unconscious recognition that you would have liked to have been raised similarly?
Carolynn
There is decent evidence that the TS condition is probably the result of the timing of development in the womb. This can affect brain development, which happens later than physical sex development, and that sets the pattern for at least the TS condition and possibly crossdressing and even homosexuality. The differential effects are seen in the amygdala within the part of the brain that is the supposed seat of gender and sexual response. Iin interactive PET scans where sections of the brain respond to stimulation (smells, taste, questions, etc.), these differences are clearly displayed in the BSTC 1 and 3 regions. of the amygdala. People who are M2F TS react to stimuli in the same pattern as cisgendered women, and F2Ms show the same pattern as csgendered men. The same pattern of gender reversal is seen in the neuron numbers and size of the BSTC(1), results repeated now in at least three studies in different countries (the latter is kinda hard to conduct as it is necessary that (1) the individual be dead and (2) have willed their bodies to science since the visual study involves thin sections of regions of the brain).
As far as the age of the kids in the program, awareness of the differences between the biological sexes develop as early as the latter part of the third year, or within the fourth year. That is when the kid says, "I am most like A rather than B, so I must be A". This cognitive process usually involves physical comparison (heard of playing doctor?) or comparison with the adults in their lives. Shortly after is when the confusion begins for the TS kid, as they have feelings that they see as contrary to the behavior of the adults who they are most "like" physically.
Strength of personality and the willingness of the parents to listen to their child determine the next path. Parents listening to their kids is a new thing, believe me. I asked my parents why they called me a "boy" and "he" instead of a "girl" and "her". I was told that was just because I was a boy and that ended that for them, but not for me. You were sorta blaming the parents because they were letting this happen, and noted they appeared to be among the more well off, financially. They were also better educated, and that is the varible that is important.
We know a lot more now about the development of the child in the womb. We are aware of the timing of developments that have to take place, including hormonal driven changes while the fetus is growing. The better educated the parents, the more they can understand about this and they can perceive their child's needs and differencs more effectively. Their decisions to allow their kids to live or experiment as their apparent preferred gender are not made laightly as some kind of Munchousen syndrome. It is born of real concern for their child. All the kids admitted to this program have strong beliefs about who they are, to the extent they tear the "wrong " clothes up and refuse to wear them. Nothing is done medically, no hormones for example, until they are older. Yes they do give them blockers pre-puberty, but those can be discontinued if the kid mihgt change their minds about who they are. It is new enough, that we doin't know if that will happen, but iamong the ones I do know who have struggled with this since their youth and are now in their teens, there have been no decisions that they are other than who they know themselves to be.
In my own case, my parents were not well educated in 1942. They depended on the expertise of others who were better educated. I was born with a visually intersex condition, during WWII. My father was going to be invited to the war shortly, and when the doctor suggested that I could be made a boy or a girl, my parents chose a boy. This medical practice was the result of flawed medical theory that believed that the brain was a blank slate when born, as they did not understaind the degree of development of the brain in the womb. Two surgeries over 4.5 years lauched me on a life of confusion where I could not form "normal" attachments or relationships with other people due to my awareness of my physical/mental "flaws", and I am now 68 years old. My body was contrary to my knowledge of myself, my sex parts were defective, but the most important thing was that I simply "knew" I was female within my mind and "normal" relationships just were not possible for me.. From my perspective, what the parents are doing along with Dr. Spack, is the right thing.
Perhaps your discomfort and conflict while watching the program was an unconscious recognition that you would have liked to have been raised similarly?
Carolynn
"It’s not given to anyone to have no regrets; only to decide, through the choices we make, which regrets we’ll have,"
David Weber – In Fury Born
David Weber – In Fury Born
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DonnaT
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I see no problem with these kids living the gender they believe themselves to be, except for the dating aspect if their partner is not in the know.
The parents don't make this decision lightly. Many times they'll try to guide the kids according to the gender assigned at birth, but find the kid getting depressed and even suicidal.
Would you rather your son live happily in a dress, or a life of self hatred and being uncommunicative, or even taking their own life?
Some of these kids eventually reverse their decision, but those who don't should be given a choice to stop puberty until they are quite sure of their direction.
The drugs used to stop puberty are not lifelong drugs. They simply prevent puberty, i.e., a boy's voice from changing, developing an Adams apple, etc., and prevent girls from developing breasts, etc.
Once they stop taking the drugs, if they so choose, they'll then go through puberty. Or they'll decide to transition and start taking hormones according to their intended gender.
These hormones are, of course, taken for life.
http://www.childrensnational.org/files/ ... ochure.pdf
http://www.genderspectrum.org/store
The parents don't make this decision lightly. Many times they'll try to guide the kids according to the gender assigned at birth, but find the kid getting depressed and even suicidal.
Would you rather your son live happily in a dress, or a life of self hatred and being uncommunicative, or even taking their own life?
Some of these kids eventually reverse their decision, but those who don't should be given a choice to stop puberty until they are quite sure of their direction.
The drugs used to stop puberty are not lifelong drugs. They simply prevent puberty, i.e., a boy's voice from changing, developing an Adams apple, etc., and prevent girls from developing breasts, etc.
Once they stop taking the drugs, if they so choose, they'll then go through puberty. Or they'll decide to transition and start taking hormones according to their intended gender.
These hormones are, of course, taken for life.
http://www.childrensnational.org/files/ ... ochure.pdf
http://www.genderspectrum.org/store
DonnaT
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Martina
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Perhaps your discomfort and conflict while watching the program was an unconscious recognition that you would have liked to have been raised similarly?
Hi Carolynn
I think your situation as an intersexed child cannot be compared to a child who was born with a determinate gender. I would have great sympathy with a person who was born with indeterminate sex and the wrong sex was chosen for them. I also have sympathy for the children in this documentary. As for myself, I wanted to wear and was facinated by female clothes especially frilly underware since I was 3 or 4 but never wanted to be a girl when I was a child or wanted to shop for girly clothes with my mother. As an adult I would have liked to live as a very feminine submissive woman from a pre womens lib era and these feelings only surfaced in my mid twenties. I would have liked to be raised similarly but only if I was an actual girl. None of my wildest fantasies or desires would have included shopping for dresses with my mom as a boy.
Hi Carolynn
I think your situation as an intersexed child cannot be compared to a child who was born with a determinate gender. I would have great sympathy with a person who was born with indeterminate sex and the wrong sex was chosen for them. I also have sympathy for the children in this documentary. As for myself, I wanted to wear and was facinated by female clothes especially frilly underware since I was 3 or 4 but never wanted to be a girl when I was a child or wanted to shop for girly clothes with my mother. As an adult I would have liked to live as a very feminine submissive woman from a pre womens lib era and these feelings only surfaced in my mid twenties. I would have liked to be raised similarly but only if I was an actual girl. None of my wildest fantasies or desires would have included shopping for dresses with my mom as a boy.
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Anthony Simon
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The F to M TS dating a young teen does sound wrong. With the other stuff it's difficult to know just from your post (and likely from the doc as well). It sounds as though these kids do unequivocally identify as being the "wrong" gender and, themselves, are unconflicted about that. I'm not sure if I much like the idea of giving them drugs, even if it does avoid the conflict that suddenly having mature bodies of the "wrong" gender provides. I mean you're deliberately keeping them as children. Maybe the doctors haven't really worked out what to do with these kids and this is the best they can do.
On the other hand, there may be issues to do with the parents. I'm pretty sure I got pushed into construing myself in a feminine way by my family and, as much as I can see there's a lot of reality in that way of looking at things, still I feel they were working from their own agenda(s). So then you have problems with looking at the motivations of the parents (which are not necessarily pure). I do feel what happened to me had abuse elements in it.
I'm inclined to think that a lot of these problems would go away if society was able to accept crossdressing individuals. Then these kids could kind of place themselves in the gender of their choice (at least some of the time) without having to hide it, but also without having recourse to drugs.
On the other hand, there may be issues to do with the parents. I'm pretty sure I got pushed into construing myself in a feminine way by my family and, as much as I can see there's a lot of reality in that way of looking at things, still I feel they were working from their own agenda(s). So then you have problems with looking at the motivations of the parents (which are not necessarily pure). I do feel what happened to me had abuse elements in it.
I'm inclined to think that a lot of these problems would go away if society was able to accept crossdressing individuals. Then these kids could kind of place themselves in the gender of their choice (at least some of the time) without having to hide it, but also without having recourse to drugs.
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Absaroka
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It makes sense that watching kids struggle with being intersexed or ts would make someone uncomfortable. Think how uncomfortable the kids must be!
I wouldn't dare to say any given treatment was wrong based on a report in an online forum. These things are complicated and the right course of action for one child may not be the right course of action for another child.
Personally, having my mother take me shopping for a dress would have felt incestuous, for the same reason that I don't cd in my daughters clothing. But that's just me.
Nonetheless it is a great topic. Thanks for starting it.
Zari
I wouldn't dare to say any given treatment was wrong based on a report in an online forum. These things are complicated and the right course of action for one child may not be the right course of action for another child.
Personally, having my mother take me shopping for a dress would have felt incestuous, for the same reason that I don't cd in my daughters clothing. But that's just me.
Nonetheless it is a great topic. Thanks for starting it.
Zari
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
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Davita
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I have 2 questions:
1) What was the relationship of the adult FtM TS to the family?
2) Dating protocols are subjective and the kid wanted/needed to date. How long was the kid supposed to wait to learn all the rules of being trans before being allowed to socialize?
With the little info we were given, I can say I had concerns; y'all voiced them. But without the whole picture, I won't say anyone was right or wrong in the decisions made. I was trans long before I knew it had a name and what it meant. My life certainly would be different if I had people helping me when I was so young.
1) What was the relationship of the adult FtM TS to the family?
2) Dating protocols are subjective and the kid wanted/needed to date. How long was the kid supposed to wait to learn all the rules of being trans before being allowed to socialize?
With the little info we were given, I can say I had concerns; y'all voiced them. But without the whole picture, I won't say anyone was right or wrong in the decisions made. I was trans long before I knew it had a name and what it meant. My life certainly would be different if I had people helping me when I was so young.
{squeezes}
Davita
Davita
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April Rose
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I was the way I was at around four. Or, as far back as I can remember. I haven't really changed, genderwise 60 or so years later. I went through years of therapy, and eventually it was very helpful in terms of my self acceptance, but in terms of my gender position, nothing has changed at all.
I am a vessel of the Goddess. Let me express my calling to a feminine life through nurturing love and relatedness.
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Elizabeth
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Hi Martina,Martina wrote:...
I think your situation as an intersexed child cannot be compared to a child who was born with a determinate gender.
...
I believe this is a mistaken premise, the one that assumes because a child has a penis or vagina, that they are a "determinate gender". Genitals do not make us feel what gender we are, that happens in our brains. A sense of who we are. This is precisely the conflict and you simply disregard it as though having a penis or vagina should be the bottom line.
There is nothing that would have or could have changed what I have felt about myself since I was nine years old. I understand there may be those who do not feel this way, but for those who do, recognizing their gender as being what they feel, instead of what they have, is a kind and compassionate act.
Now, if you can find someone who felt they were not the sex they were born to be when they were a child and no longer feel that way, it would be of great interest to our community. This excludes those who claim to have quit either after finding god or after reaffirming their religion as a function of those beliefs.
I know it seems like a hard call, but remember it's the children who tell their parents they are transsexual, not the other way around. And lastly, I have never met a transsexual who does not wish they could have transitioned as a child. So I see no conflict for the parents. Other than issues that transsexuals have to deal with anyway, such as reproduction.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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Amanda Barber
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Its so much better to be forced to live a lie, never having any happiness until you can escape and start living the live you should of had.Ralitsa wrote:I do feel that this is going too far. Having children this age making such decisions is not a good idea. Even if they think this is what they want, they really do not have nearly enough information or experience with life, and there are so many changes between 8 and 25 that it's crazy to make any life long decisions at age 8.
It's a bad idea you accept your children. force them to be what you want. That surely will work better.
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Carolynn
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Michelle_CD
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As I began reading this thread I really wanted to reply, but Donna, Carolynn, Elizabeth and April Rose have pretty much summed up my feelings. I find the scientific studies on how the brain actually works to be very interesting.
I have not posted here in.... years, and always struggled, struggled struggled with this part of my life. I accept things now, and also realize now that if I could have had puberty put on hold and transitioned at 12 or 13 that would have been the best for me.
I have not posted here in.... years, and always struggled, struggled struggled with this part of my life. I accept things now, and also realize now that if I could have had puberty put on hold and transitioned at 12 or 13 that would have been the best for me.
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Wendae
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I think of the misery children and young adults live with because they are sure they are in the wrong body but can't find the acceptance to live that life until later years if they are lucky. It would be great if the child was allowed to dress as they please. Because society is still not up to acceptance home school would be a good idea. I would guess the teen years would be the time to to start transition if that was still the way they wanted to go. Having to settle for being a cross dresser and live in fear of discovery and embarrassment is not a lot of fun unless you are not inclined to tansition and would rather just cross dress.
I'm still indecisive about my choices at almost 70 and wonder what may have happened if I was allowed to dress as I wanted.
I'm still indecisive about my choices at almost 70 and wonder what may have happened if I was allowed to dress as I wanted.
I believe I was a lesbian in my past life
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Kimberly Kael
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Perhaps, but a huge part of the what school teaches you is how to deal with a wide range of social situations. Learning how to deal with people who try to tear you down is really important, regardless of whether you're talking about gender expression, orientation, weight, other aspects of your appearance, lack of skill in sports, having trouble reading, etc.Wendae wrote:Because society is still not up to acceptance home school would be a good idea.
I do think it's a good thing to let kids "test drive" their preferred gender while they're young. That's the ideal time to make mistakes, so long as they're not irreversible. Delaying puberty for a child who shows strong signs of being transsexual seems like the medically responsible approach, allowing a child to mature intellectually and emotionally before making a life-altering decision.
I certainly wish I could have grown up with the kind of support some kids are finally getting today.
~ Kimberly
“To escape criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." - Elbert Hubbard
“To escape criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." - Elbert Hubbard