Men, women, and jokes

[Anita]

Anthony Simon wrote:
[ Referring to men playing poker, and being competitive at that]

Like I had no drive to be part of it (or any such thing). But that drive seemed to be very much there with my brother and his friends. It was like an imperative, something like the basis of the formation of new adult male identity which they would then carry outwards and upwards into the world.

I had to start a new thread on this, because I felt it would hijack the one it was in.

I found much the same thing with watching men tell jokes to each other. This is very much a male activity. Deborah Tannen, in her books on how men and women differ in their conversational styles, tries to give explanations for why women do not tend to tell jokes. I also have a very good book on how to tell jokes, by Jim Pietsch, and he devotes a whole chapter to looking at why women don't generally tell jokes in their daily lives.

Mind you, I'm not saying that no woman ever does. It's just that it's not a skill that they tend to be rewarded for, for one thing. It doesn't get them what they want.

I'm going to say that I've always been more of a woman when it comes to this activity. It's just not something that had much appeal to me; it didn't seem to get me anything that I wanted, either.

Not doing the jokes/pranks created a wall when it came to male bonding. I know how to be friends with other men. I can also be there for them when major trouble hits, or there's a crisis of any kind. But I can't be 'familiar' with them; I just can't get that kind of easy camaraderie that comes from "joking around,' and it has hurt me over the years. There are rewards for being able to do this, and every man is expected to be able to participate, to some degree. It's part of 'being a guy.'

So the forum can see why in some ways it was a relief for me to become a woman--I was 'opting out' of this whole system in a very up-front way. I was saying that I was no longer competing in this game, which I wasn't very good at doing in day-to-day life.

What's puzzling is that I actually have some ability at stand-up comedy. I did an act for a local cable TV show, and it went over well. Some of it was original material, too. I know the mechanics of how it 'works.'

In some way, joke-telling and pranks are "playing with truth." They deceive people or confuse them, just for a moment, and then the truth comes out again. And that's 'funny.' But to me, it just seems hurtful. I find it hard to 'deceive' anyone, even for the time it takes to pull a prank. And jokes are usually at someone's expense; whether it's Polish people, women drivers, or lawyers, the funniest jokes seem to be about putting someone else down temporarily.

I know I can be seen as stuck-up and prissy for having this attitude, and I don't blame people for seeing it that way. I know that feminists often get hit with this club--that they have no sense of humor. This is a huge generalization, but there is some truth to it. I have friends who consider themselves feminists, including one sister. So I've observed their 'seriousness' first-hand, and yes, it does tend to be there in my circle.

Oddly enough, I can admire men who are good at the game. I like stand-up comics, and I have always been in awe of my bandmates who were good at stage banter. I've even had a few girlfriends who were good at it. They had that truck-stop waitress style; the gal who works around men, and can banter with the best of them. Obviously, they weren't with me because of my ability to do this! Still, while these gals were good with their wits, they didn't tend to tell jokes.

I discovered one way to get around my disinterest in jokes. It was to be super-good at some sport or activity. Men would reward me for this, if I could pull it off. They'd 'forgive' my lack of humor if I was superior as a teammate. This can work, but it's exhausting; a hard way to live.

In racket sports, a person needs to have a 'backhand' stroke, right? You're suppose to be able to hit a ball on either side of you. The backhand tends to be harder to do, so some people run very fast so they can hit the ball with their forehand. It's called "running around your backhand," and it's not a very efficient way to play.

My refusal to tell jokes has been the equivalent of this, and I've paid the price for it. But I'm saying that as a guy. I don't think my TS friends would say that. Just like genetic women, the 'rewards' of telling jokes were just not important to them; they were never part of that whole scenario.

[Carolynn]

Jokes. Well, some can tell 'em, and some can't. You might recognize that, or maybe not, as the punch line to a really hoary joke about a rather isolated town that heard so few new jokes that to save time they just numbered all the jokes they retold and would just call out the number when they felt the need. The stranger, usually a yankee or city boy, would move to town, and in an effort to fit in, while not understanding why a number would get appreciative chuckles, decide to try to fit in, and just called out a number at random. The resulting stark silence from the loafers on the porch drives him away in embarrassment. As he drove away, the punchline, "Some folks can tell and joke, some can't".

I learned that I had a facitliy for remembering jokes, often for a long time, and I used those jokes as part of my facade while i had to pretend a male persona. If people are laughing at your jokes, your flaws in behavior etc. are obscured, and even though you may be hiding depression, the jokes help deflect recognition and questions, even among adults.

I had a huge advantage in that my paternal family, a large extended family, were full of joke tellers, MALE and FEMALE, Anita. At family reunions I would soak them up like a sponge for later use among my peers. The men could turn the most mundane of comments into jokes, and they would retell true family events often about deceased family in ways that were very humorous and at the same time respectful and calling for a tender rememberance. A few if among the guys alone might be a bit risque'. Few were ever "dirty".

Most of the jokes the women told were told in mixed company, as part of the general socializing within the family. Puns were often used as well by both genders, and would fly thick and fast, and I learned how to generate those. It might be significant that most of the puns, which reflect a facility with language, were generated by the ladies.

Among the women, without the men around, jokes were more rare, and when they were told were much more general and much more gentle in tone as well. Puns were still evident, and there could be gentle teasing in a humorous way. I loved those family reunions.

So, I think it is not that women don't or can't tell jokes, but that the nature of the joke may be different, and often reflects a better control of language than the more direct jokes of men. I mean, I have known men for whom a story where an acquaintance wound up with a broken limb through stupidity or happenstance was the height of hilarity. I think that is the same kind of humor that makes Amercians Funniest Home Videos popular.

But you can learn both ways of telling jokes, though sometimes I found that some jokes I just didn't "get" when the guys who were my peers would be telling them. They were often full of sexual innuendo, and that left me cold too.

FWIW

Carolynn

[Anita]

Thanks for checking in, Carolynn.

Carolynn wrote:

If people are laughing at your jokes, your flaws in behavior etc. are obscured, and even though you may be hiding depression, the jokes help deflect recognition and questions, even among adults.

It is so useful to have a 'tool' for blurring your screw-ups, your short-comings, or your depression. I saw how guys used jokes to do this, and it worked. I seldom was able to pull it off, and I was envious of people who could do that.

It's useful for when you're learning new skills, and doing poorly at it. Guys who were are able to joke about their mistakes got a pass. Those of us who took everything seriously had a harder time getting through the awkward beginner's part. I always wanted to be perfect at everything I tried, first time out, for this very reason. That's not very realistic!

I had a huge advantage in that my paternal family, a large extended family, were full of joke tellers, MALE and FEMALE, Anita. At family reunions I would soak them up like a sponge for later use among my peers.

That's a great situation. My family had maybe three members out of twenty who were joke-tellers, and they seldom spoke up at family reunions. So I didn't get to practice much, even if I'd wanted to. My middle brother was good at jokes, but he was so much older than I was (10 years), that I couldn't hang out with him. He and my oldest brother both stayed out of the house as much as possible, maybe because it was always so 'serious' there with my mother and my three sisters. So I never saw the men in the family--my dad worked long hours at his TV business. Some male role models might have helped. My dad and my older brother were not joke-tellers, though.

Most of the jokes the women told were told in mixed company, as part of the general socializing within the family. Puns were often used as well by both genders, and would fly thick and fast, and I learned how to generate those. It might be significant that most of the puns, which reflect a facility with language, were generated by the ladies.

Among my TS friends, at least two are very good with puns. That's one form of humor they did seem to value.

Among the women, without the men around, jokes were more rare, and when they were told were much more general and much more gentle in tone as well. Puns were still evident, and there could be gentle teasing in a humorous way. I loved those family reunions.

That's been my experience of women-only gatherings, too. As a so-called 'sensitive man,' I found myself the only guy at such get-togethers from time to time.

So, I think it is not that women don't or can't tell jokes, but that the nature of the joke may be different, and often reflects a better control of language than the more direct jokes of men.

I think Deborah Tannen noted this in her book. She observed that in mixed company, women just didn't tend to tell jokes. The women's types of humor were going to get buried if they tried to compete with the men.

I mean, I have known men for whom a story where an acquaintance wound up with a broken limb through stupidity or happenstance was the height of hilarity. I think that is the same kind of humor that makes Amercians Funniest Home Videos popular.

Yeah, that's hard for me to handle. A little goes a long way.

But you can learn both ways of telling jokes, though sometimes I found that some jokes I just didn't "get" when the guys who were my peers would be telling them. They were often full of sexual innuendo, and that left me cold too.

Jokes. Well, some can tell 'em, and some can't. You might recognize that, or maybe not, as the punch line to a really hoary joke about a rather isolated town that heard so few new jokes that to save time they just numbered all the jokes they retold and would just call out the number when they felt the need.

As much as I do find those funny sometimes, I don't find myself wanting to repeat them. They don't 'sit' right on my tongue--I feel like I'm shouting, "Number six!", and the locals are looking away into the distance.

[Anthony Simon]

I tend to see the sexual innuendo jokes amongst men as a type of dick-measuring or dick-waving. Like they all amount to some sort of assertion of masculine potency. So they're closely related to discussions about porn amongst men which provide opportunities to prove that you're adequately turned on and so can be included as a genuine member (pun intended) of a group.

I did once get caught in a situation (in an online discussion group) where I was accused of being a humourless intellectual (naah, where did they ever get that idea?). But actually my sense of humour is not so bad. So I managed to turn the thing around and make a sexual inunendo joke out of his assertion. But having proved my point (so to speak...), I found no necessity to do it again.

My sense of humour has quite often got me out of trouble. I understand what you mean by using jokes to pass, but I'm lucky enough to sometimes make up little bits of wit. Because these are genuine, if very small, bits of creativity I feel the real me is interacting in a situation - that is it isn't just passing, it's being. I am rubbish at telling jokes, though.

I think women often use language with precision and hear all sorts of subtleties that are denied to men. I'm not sure if that leads to a delight in puns, but maybe. Precison does matter to me, and a lot of the stuff I do is based on hearing the absurdities in the words people use and then making something out of that. Years ago I had a couple of jokes in the FT (Financial Times) out of that, one of which (I think) got stolen and ended up on the BBC.

If you're a feminist (of a certain school), it's often very difficult to unbind in public - show a sense of humour, for example - because then you're afraid people won't take you seriously.

[Anita]

Anthony Simon wrote:

Because these are genuine, if very small, bits of creativity I feel the real me is interacting in a situation - that is it isn't just passing, it's being.

That's great, when it happens that way. Sometimes I'll surprise my friends with some little flash like that. Sometimes I'll actually really laugh at something, too, and I'm aware of how different that is from just laughing to be social.

I am rubbish at telling jokes, though.

Joke telling really is a performance. I could only get into it when I thought about it like being on a stage. I know how to do that, so I applied the same kind of practice to telling jokes for the act. It was a lot of work, but I was able to do it. But it's too much work for me to want to do it just 'off the cuff,' like my friends do.

Precison does matter to me, and a lot of the stuff I do is based on hearing the absurdities in the words people use and then making something out of that. Years ago I had a couple of jokes in the FT (Financial Times) out of that, one of which (I think) got stolen and ended up on the BBC.

Oh, ouch! Joke-stealing! Must have been something to hear your own bit coming back at you on the BBC, though.

My sense of humour has quite often got me out of trouble.

I found my sense of humor had to go up a few notches to be out and about as a woman. I dealt with men by being more humorous--it was something that I needed to get by out there in the world. My gal self does better at this than the guy, for whatever reason. I don't think I take myself as seriously as a woman--'she' doesn't have to be competitive in the same way that 'he' does.

If you're a feminist (of a certain school), it's often very difficult to unbind in public - show a sense of humour, for example - because then you're afraid people won't take you seriously.

You have a point there. Dina had worked too hard to get where she was; she raised three children by herself, and she didn't get her doctorate until she was 50. So she wasn't about to give any ground when it came to respect and work survival.

[Anthony Simon]

Anthony Simon wrote:

Precison does matter to me, and a lot of the stuff I do is based on hearing the absurdities in the words people use and then making something out of that. Years ago I had a couple of jokes in the FT (Financial Times) out of that, one of which (I think) got stolen and ended up on the BBC.

Oh, ouch! Joke-stealing! Must have been something to hear your own bit coming back at you on the BBC, though.

I have actually never thought of it as joke-stealing. It's more like a way of looking at an event (because that's what the joke amounted to) that's got stolen, packaged as a joke. It was on BBC2 (The second BBC TV channel at the time). So it was quite fun to see a conceptualization of mine floating about in front of a national TV audience. Basically it made me feel "if I can do it once...."

My sense of humour has quite often got me out of trouble.

I found my sense of humor had to go up a few notches to be out and about as a woman. I dealt with men by being more humorous--it was something that I needed to get by out there in the world. My gal self does better at this than the guy, for whatever reason. I don't think I take myself as seriously as a woman--'she' doesn't have to be competitive in the same way that 'he' does.

Yeah, I can see the usefulness of humour in CDing situations. I have used it just once to take the edge out. It's difficult to know what would happen if I went out as a woman, but I feel I would probably just stay with being "me" only in a dress. I think self-deprecating humour would probably be something I used a lot - partly because it is an element of what I do anyway, partly because it is a standard (and well-understood) Brit mode, and partly because it seems like a reasonable stance for a man in a dress.

[Absaroka]

The idea of feminists not liking sexually or gender oriented jokes reminded me of something. I've always liked ethnic jokes, especially one aimed at the various ethnic groups in my background. So a couple of times I asked Black friends of mine if they knew any white people jokes. You know, how many white people does it take to change a light bulb or why did they cross the street.

The silence was deafening.

I bet no one here can think of any either....

Zari

[Anthony Simon]

... a couple of times I asked Black friends of mine if they knew any white people jokes. You know, how many white people does it take to change a light bulb or why did they cross the street.

The silence was deafening.

I bet no one here can think of any either....

Something along the lines of "if the light doesn't work, how do you know if they're white or not?" Or maybe, "...how do they know if they're white or not....?"

A take on a line in the French movie "Brotherhood of the Wolf"(?). Spoken there by an (American) Indian character: "In the dark, all women are the same colour".

[Susan]

Not specifically a white joke but..

How do you confuse an Irishman?

Show him two shovels and tell him to take his pick

nuff said

[Paula G]

Racist jokes are usually told by the majority against the minority, hence our long tradition of Irish jokes, for some reason it is still largely considered OK to tell Irish jokes, and blond jokes, but not black or Asian jokes.

On the whole I don't often tell jokes, largely because my taste is truly awful;

A White horse walks into a bar, and the barman says "Hey we've got a whisky named after you" and the horse replies "What, Nigel?"

See what I mean. On stage I often have to compere or at least provide links between musical numbers, I do this with as much humour as I can, but like most stand ups now that is not through the traditional joke as much as observational humor.

I have a long standing ambition to do a straight forward stand up as Paula, but have yet to pluck up the courage.

[Absaroka]

Susan your Irish joke sort of made my point.

[Susan]

Sari

I live in the (unofficial) capital of Ireland. My wife's family are Irish but I am that most unusual of Liverpudlians (aka Scousers) in that I have no Irish blood in me. Humour (aka Humor) flows in the veins of everyone here - if you ever come to Liverpool be prepared to loosen your corset as laughter is endemic here. Long may it be so.

[Joan]

And I thought Liverpool was the unofficial capital of North Wales! We held a National Eisteddfod in Liverpool during WWII, won by 'Y Bardd Du' or Black Bard as he was unable to attend the Eisteddfod as he was killed in the war.

Joan

[Paula G]

Do you have any Irish in you? - would you like some?

Paddy went for a job on the site, but it was a high tech site so the fore man said "You need to pass a test" "OK what's the question?"

"What's the difference between a joist and a Girder?"

"Easy; Joist wrote ulysses Girder wrote Faust"

come on - you have to do the accent!

[ChrissyE]

And I thought Liverpool was the unofficial capital of North Wales! We held a National Eisteddfod in Liverpool during WWII, won by 'Y Bardd Du' or Black Bard as he was unable to attend the Eisteddfod as he was killed in the war.

Joan

it was Hedd Wyn of Trawsfynydd who won the 'Black' Chair in Birkenhead 1917 having died at Ypres 31st July 1917. Liverpool held the eisteddfod in 1929.
Bydd y cefais fy nghot ( I'll get my coat)