Nice Story

Post by **DonnaT** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:45 am

http://bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/12/11 ... story.html

Erica S · Post by **Erica S** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:07 am

I enjoyed it, very nice indeed!

Erica

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:57 am

Carolynn · Post by **Carolynn** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:59 am

A very positive article. I wish the family the best.

Carolynn

Leeza · Post by **Leeza** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:40 am

So much better than a lot we hear about.

Leeza

Kyra · Post by **Kyra** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:08 pm

I think it's fantastic that we live in an age where this type of thing can be identified, confirmed and rectified (in a positive way!).

Kudos to all involved in this family. What a great story!
Thanks, Donna.

Absaroka · Post by **Absaroka** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:26 am

It's really interesting that this happened with identical twins, since that would seem to rule out genetics in this case. It would seem to me that both fetuses would have had pretty much the same environment in the womb as well, although the article states that the doctors think maybe something different happened with one child.

Having watched too much Law and Order, I wonder what their DNA would reveal.

So much of the article was devoted to which bathroom to use. I realize that this is a symptom of a much larger issue, but sometimes I wonder why we segregate the bathroom by gender. In particular, being a straight man, when I am in venues where most of the people are gay, I wonder about which bathroom I would feel more comfortable in.

It's a great article, thanks for posting it.
Zari

Anthony Simon · Post by **Anthony Simon** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:10 am

I think the family have operated in an exemplary fashion - just because the issues, the husband particularly, faced were so difficult. And then they seem to have found there way to a safe harbour for the kids. In a way, it reads like the script of a social issue teledrama - because of the series of hurdles, and very characteristic ones, that the family has had to surmount - with a happy (so far) ending.

I've heard it said that identical twins deliberately exaggerate differences in order to differentiate themseves from one another. One of them being a girl and another a boy would be a super-hyper-charged version of that. Not that I really believe that this is at the root of the story, but still actually both might be somewhat transgendered with one going one way and the other the other. And that transgenderedness might have a partly genetic base. Notoriously twins operate as a kind of unit (like if one twin dies it can be horribly difficult for the other to go on). So, in a way the femininity (or masculinity) of one is still "owned " by the other.

For me the whole problem of kids deciding they're one sex or another really does bring up problems. Just because, until they get past a certain age, they have difficulty distinguishing what they wish from what is real. I do feel parents have responsibilities, but, like I said at the top...

Post by **DonnaT** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:16 pm

I've a feeling that they weren't actually identical twins, there is a height difference that is too great to attribute to hormone blockers.

http://www.livescience.com/4833-identic ... aries.html

Carolynn · Post by **Carolynn** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:06 pm

There are aparently a lot of different types of twins, even those considered identical.

http://www.proactivegenetics.com/faq-tw ... etics.html

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:36 pm

That is a good story. One thing that is very positive is that the hormone blocker can be withdrawn at any time, and normal hormonal development can start again. That makes it easier for parents to make the decision; they're not doing irreversible changes.

There is one statement in the article that still puzzles me, and I've read it at least once before.

Spack says... a “very significant number of children who exhibit cross-gender behavior’’ before puberty “do not end up being transgender.’’

If this is so, it surprises me. I tend to feel that transgendered children do know who they are, and are not just "going through a phase." However, this doctor has no reason to exaggerate--he's saying that some high percentage don't follow through on their earlier feelings that they're not the gender that they were born as.

This is the second time I'm seen this information.
Perhaps the other quote I read that was similar to this was also Dr. Spack, in another article.

What happens is that the ones who do know could have a harder time convincing anyone. The common view on this whole issue is that kids can't know what's best for them in regard to changing gender, and Spack's quote supports that.

I'll look at the glass as half-full. At least kids can get treatment now. Trans woman my age had no such options available to them.

Post by **DonnaT** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:28 pm

I've seen the comment as well. Usually attributed to Dr. Kenneth Zucker, someone not well liked by the trans community.

I reckon it depends on what they mean by "cross-gender behavior’’. Playing with dolls is a lot different than telling everyone you are a girl in a boys body.

I reckon cross-gender behavior can cover a lot of basis, so it's possible the statement is accurate, to a point.

Carolynn · Post by **Carolynn** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:21 pm

Zucker based his observation about teens losing cross-gender behavior on his own patients, whom he encouraged to go through programs such as NARTH if they were young enough, and the result often was that he claimed they were gay and that was a positive outcome. Personally, I think the negative conditioning led them to "settle" and they might have gone trans again later, but there is NO followup on their cases. His patients underwent his program of behavior modification with the parents help, punishing the kids for exhibiting cross gender behavior or choices, and only supplying them with gender appropriate (for their biology)clothes, and toys. He feels it is better for them to be gay than transgendered, and he admits that is the usual outcome.

The Dr.s Green (husband and wife) in England have claimed the same and do the same to their clients children in special gender clinics in England as well.

It is their opinion, that is Zucker and the Greens, that if a child is over the age of 13 when they are brought to the clinic they should be allowed to transition as their "mental attitude is set". Earlier than that, they consider the mind's sexuality (and that is how they see gender) as malleable. In a nutshell, that is their belief.

They have some limited data with bad statistics that has been criticized by other psychologists extensively. The bad statistics noted include recombining samples to raise sample numbers when they have too few cases for the statistics they want to run, a statistical no-no I am told. Then they misrepresent their results (ie. lie), according to Lynn Conway.

But, that was the origin of what you were recalling. There are some kids that exhibit cross gender behavior that do end up gay or femmy boys, but the problem is that there is no hard and fast rule to discriminate between behavior that is transgender and that which is an early reflection of a gay sexuality. Both may appear cross gender. And most gender therapists will admit that. Diagnosis remains as much of an art form as a science and needs frequent sessions with their therapists to monitor any changes. So far, any kids in Spacks program are not reported to settle for being gay instead, but it is early on in the compilation of information.

In my younger years, 3-7, I understood that I was a girl, but also had the understanding from the reaction of my cousins and adult relatives, that was not appropriate, and I hid it well, except for things like making skirts out of towels and hair out of other towels when playing with my doll (3-5 yrs), and at about 6 and 7 yrs I played with a girl who accepted that we should dress up in her clothes and her play clothes to play with dolls and have tea parties. If I had been less adaptable, I would have been insisting on my girl status and I suspect my life would have been different. Not better, given the times and place, just different. Though I could pretend to be a boy, I was always a girl, and events happened that nearly cost me my life by my own hand more than once before I transitioned. Most people had no idea, but knew I was different 'cause you can't totally hide yourself.

Carolynn