"I enjoy being a girl"

[Anthony Simon]

In the current "prefer guy clothes" thread, PhylissH brought up the song of that title to describe how she feels about dressing up. I thought it might make a thread. Here are the posts from the original thread:

Due to my circumstances I still wear my guy clothes. However if things were different I would dress 24/7. I have been dressing since Jr High, and still love to be in my fem attire. I have the opportunity now and then to dress for days at a time, such as this past week when I was able to dress everyday. If picking out an out fit and doing make up are chores they are chores that I enjoy, so to e they are not chores at all. Its all part of being a girl.

As the song says I enjoy being a GIRL

This brought forth the following sequence:

Absaroka wrote:

Boy that song I enjoy being a girl brings back memories. The interesting thing is that it's not so much about feminimity as cultural assimilation, of being in America and enjoying the American idea of the role of women as opposed to the way things were done in the old country.

The play it's in (Flower Drum Song) came under fire for a while for being sort of a Chinese American minstrel show. But the book was a quintessential coming to America story writen by a Chinese American. It's just that Broadway had to ham it up a bit too much.

and Anita:

I know exactly who I am in my boy clothes. I don't know (as well) who I am in my girl clothes. So throwing on comfortable clothes means comfort in both ways--the way they fit, and the way they make me feel.

It used to be more exciting to not know who I was as a girl--it was exploration. For whatever reason, that just doesn't seem enough motivation anymore. Maybe I've reached the point where any more exploration would mean transition, and I know that's not where I want to go at present.

and Absaroka again:

Anita that puts the whole lyric of "I enjoy being a girl" in a different context. People use that line here and I usually take it as I enjoy doing the things that girls do, which is sort of what the song was saying-I enjoy doing the things girls do in America. But in the context of your post it's more like I enjoy being a person who sometimes is a girl.

I looked it up. Interestingly, I enjoy being a girl is sung by the character of Linda Low (interesting name right there, complete with Americanized spelling) who is a stripper in a nightclub. So there is a whole subtext of does she really enjoy this or is she being exploited, or both. And was this really the immigrant dream-come to America so your daughter can be a stripper?

And yes it certainly addresses this issue of female power as discussed elsewhere recently, or at least the male perspective of it.

I actually do enjoy being a girl, so that song resonates with me. At the same time I like it because I'm a man - and can go back to being a man any time I like. There is a thing when I look in the mirror and I see this woman looking back that's happened to me recently. I'm not really sure what it means when I see someone who really looks like a woman - and, in a way, I'm scared to go there too much and find I can't get back.

But there's another thing...I was in a coffee shop at the weekend and one of the women there said it was completely different working there and drinking coffee and just coming in for a drink. And I've heard the same sort of thing from someone who became a record label owner when he was previously just an enthusiast. He said it was hard to keep up the enthusiasm, the enjoyment when it was a day to day job. I think the same might be true of CDs who transition.

For me it's just fun being a girl because I've got this wish that (I think) has been around since early childhood that I actually was a girl. So I'm letting my fantasies out and having fun with that. At the same time, like I've said before, there is this part of me that seems female - I mean it does seem to me like I think like a woman. So then I get the opportunity to give that air - and there's some sort of fun, productive thing that impacts on other areas of my life because of it. Like because I'm not censoring part of me it has a generally energizing effect.

[Carol Ann]

What can I say?, I am a girl on the inside and trying my very best to be a women on the outside

[Vieja]

It is too late for me to be anything other than an old man who wants

wear women's clothes. But boy would I love to really be a woman

for a while at least.


Vieja

[Paula G]

Interesting thought Anthony, a while back I used be a professional musician, gigging around a fair bit of the UK and with the odd forays into Europe. After working in an office for the first 7 years of my career at first it so terribly exciting. After a while it became work, the music played so many times it became difficult to make it still sound fun, when for us it wasn't. Now I am an amateur again it is serious fun. I also wonder if my CDing could be the same.

I know my Girl has no resposibilities, no work, no problems not sure if it woudl still be fun if I had to add all that stuff back in, but fun or not I do know that I would still do it, because I have to, just as I have to play music, it is part of me.

[Anthony Simon]

I suppose I shouldn't say this Vieja, but the "it's too late" approach is one I am a regular recipient of. My dad's been taking it (just generally, he's not a CD) since his 50s. Now he's 91...and I'm 58. Anyway, I hope it isn't "too late" for me...

There is actually a half-way house between "really" being a woman (i.e. transition, I assume) and being a man that wears women's clothes. That is when I'm dressed up and made up and wig and everything and look in the mirror and see a woman looking back, I am kind of amazed and start to think that I'm "really" a woman. It's both a wonderful thing and a scary thing...

Thanks, Paula. When you say the thing about your girl having "no responsibilities", in a way you seem to be equating that with a child part of you. Like there's a "play", "fun" element in it which is not entirely disconnected from one's "inner child" (as well as one's "woman within").

[Anne Bonny]

First time in a while I was going to post something similar and here is this idea. kind of fits here about enjoying being a girl (though we arn't). The american idea of being a girl is interesting too as women assert their equality in every area of lilfe and their equal standing, being human, to men. There are obvious differences and there are still expectations that these be recognized and respected but where commonality exists the majority of women have every expectation of and demand nothing less than equality. (some, especially many from previous generations seem to live in that nondominate submissive role deferring to men, excelling at being wives and mothers). I observed this with my grandmother who was biased giving preferential treatment toward men over females, now that is being locked into a traditional role!

But what makes men desire to share with women what makes them women and different?

Seems to me thee is something erotic that stimulates and brings desire and pleasure in our yearning to be or to experience femininity or that which makes women different from being masculine and men.

Many cultures even our own hold that the status of women is beneath that of men, they are seen as weaker, emotionally unstable, submissive, less powerful, yealding and desiring to be possessed, protected, loved and cared for - hum... this should elicit comments and thoughts!!

Therefore we as men who have these desires in a sense wish to take off our masculinity and don femininity. We are releived of certain burdens and pressures we have placed on ourselves in our mistaken conceits that we are Strong, powerful, rational rather than emotonal and cannot cry, or whine, dominant and leaders with all the burden and responsibilities that brings. For men to strip ourselves bare and don femininity we are humbled, humiliated - based on our own ideas of women's status - perhaps this is our way of stating that we recognize and desire equality, and more than that, that we desire to participate in and to experience that which makes women different form us. - there - how's that as a thought?

Oh! A final thought on this that we as men are jealous of women, and want it all! I am not sure women want it all as in the 12th night when Felicity Kendal - the actress states (see You tube) (she is crossdressing as a young man) and a man states something about her growing a beard, she quips something but states "but I would not have it grow on my face!"

Of late...I feel ambiguous, desiring yet not perhaps this is just my current circumstances. I did purchase a nice flashy men's watch, placed my old spice colognes on the vainity, and deoderant in my drawer, a stylish shaving mug and brush. I have used the mantra "I am a man, I am a man,..." and have indulged in manly things, afterall...I am a man. Perhaps this is having an effect trying to enjoy manly things that we are programmed for and particularly skilled at? who knows. Trying to center myself or to be more in sinc with my genetals and brain? Yet I am not planning and never would "purge" I am and always will be a crossdresser, it is there and eventually will return and I will....

[Anne Bonny]

Hum... I have also found when I was dressing as much as possible, lingerie, hygiene (shaving, lotions, hair) applying the make-up, jewelry, scent, deoderant then choosng something to wear day after day that routine did set in, and the clothes became clothes, then I would come across the thought of the silliness of it all - What am I doing, then I would change back. Yet there is also erotic thought and desire that in the not having brought the desire to change back have it's way. I believe we can over a long time really begin to think and to actually be more like women, and begin thinking desiring transition, perhaps breasts, perhaps all the way, or pierced ears... I usually found that these were delusions. We do have to be careful with that and that is the very reason the bar for transition is set so high by medical and psychological standards prior to granting someone the right to have the operation. I know transition is not for me, I am not a transexual but a crossdresser - much as at times I may delude myself that I want to have it done. We can begin to lose contact with male socialization and become more attuned to what women think about and enjoy. To the point that we feel out of place around men, and feel more connected with women!

[Anthony Simon]

Anne Bonny wrote:

But what makes men desire to share with women what makes them women and different?

Seems to me thee is something erotic that stimulates and brings desire and pleasure in our yearning to be or to experience femininity or that which makes women different from being masculine and men.

For me "erotic" is a subset of the thing I'm seeking. I think it's more like "sensuality" - like a woman's sensuality - which I am trying to make come out of myself. Women's sensuality has both an erotic quality and is, in itself, erotically attractive to men. But there's more to it than that. I kind of think of it as "the motor" that drives womens' way of doing things - like you can see it expressed in the way they walk, talk, dress etc. But I think it's also there in the way that they think, write etc. etc.

I'm not sure how much of that is me letting myself be taken over by an image of woman - like an actor would "channel" a character through him - and how much it is this female thing in me coming out. At least some important part of it does have to be a part of me that knows more - or has understood more - about my life experience. Maybe that is because women do look at things differently to men - like, perhaps, there is more subtlety to their thought because that's the way their sensibility (and hence sensuality) is.

At any rate I'm convinced that this woman is wiser than I am - and there is a kind of release when I get to her - like she isn't bothered by stuff in the way I am, kind of sees straight. So then I come back to the "real world" (and the "real me") refreshed.

[Paula G]

"Sensuality"? well for me I think I would put it more as elegance, but are we all dancing around the same handbag here? there is that "something" about womanhood that we long for but can never quite fully clasp however much we reach for it. When dressed I know I am close, but some self consciousness always creeps back in saying "this isn't real you know!"

As for women being in any way subservient or inferior in anyway socially, financially or authoritatively that doesn't match my experience growing up. My Mother is a strong personality expecting to and being used to getting her own way, independently financially secure and in many ways (as a teacher) much more of a natural authority figure than my father. My Aunt (Father's sister) was widowed young and brought her two children up on her own, with help from my (widowed) Grandmother - not easy in the sixties. On the other hand I remember my Grandfather was largely dependent on my Mother even before his health failed. Maybe all this has given me a slewed version of femininity, or maybe it just helps me to recognise a woman's strength.............

[Anthony Simon]

"Sensuality"? well for me I think I would put it more as elegance, but are we all dancing around the same handbag here? there is that "something" about womanhood that we long for but can never quite fully clasp however much we reach for it. When dressed I know I am close, but some self consciousness always creeps back in saying "this isn't real you know!"

"Dancing around the same handbag" is a decent metaphor but I'm not quite sure it applies in my case. I do definitely see there as being "something" that happens when I get dressed up which kind of evades consciousness. Yet there is also a sense of substance to it (a lot of the time) which defies the idea in the image that this is somehow second best.

Yes, the point about reality is fair. But I have a big problem in that part of me "isn't there" and when I get dressed up I sort of lose touch with the me that is there. This is the most scary thing about loooking the mirror and seeing a woman looking back. But, at the same time, a part of me is stuck (I'm pretty sure) in adolescence (The kind of surly, angry bit of it) and when I get dressed up that bit evaporates. Then I see this mature (though female) person which I often don't see when I look in the mirror as a man. I'm pretty sure it's freeing me up from some long-standing trap I've been falling into and I think that's where a lot of the sense of substance comes from.

So, it's not just the "woman within" that gets released but the "adult within"...

[Anita]

Anne Bonney wrote:

Many cultures even our own hold that the status of women is beneath that of men, they are seen as weaker, emotionally unstable, submissive, less powerful, yealding and desiring to be possessed, protected, loved and cared for - hum... this should elicit comments and thoughts!!

…For men to strip ourselves bare and don femininity we are humbled, humiliated - based on our own ideas of women's status –

This is an area where it gets really sticky. While individual women do not buy into this or act it out, it’s a blanket feeling that covers the whole culture.
My feminist sister does not want to hear about the first paragraph—she’s fought against that image all of her life. Silverlady has to be cringing when she reads a lot of what we write about here. Yet it’s a reality that women are seen through these filters. SL or my sister Dina may not buy into it, but they constantly have to work around it. There’s also parts of that image that do fit women more than men. Maybe my sister would like to be cared for sometimes. If she has to deny that in order not to get caught up in the other stereotypes, that’s a tough row to hoe, too.

Perhaps this is our way of stating that we recognize and desire equality, and more than that, that we desire to participate in and to experience that which makes women different form us. - there - how's that as a thought?

The second part of this really resonates with me—about participating in and experiencing the ‘different’ part. The first part is a slippery slope. Many women around me don’t see what I’m doing as helping in the struggle for equality at all. I tend to agree with them. If I’m a part-time woman, I’m not taking on all the problems. I’m harvesting the ‘good’ parts, and then going back to my other gender home across town, so to speak.

Even fulltime trans women get hit with the charge that they didn’t grow up as women, so they have less standing in the community. That’s an extreme viewpoint, but I’ve heard it from one lesbian friend, and I know she’s not alone in that feeling.

I see what I’m doing as helping society as a whole, I think. Crossing gender lines does help bring in something valuable, but I think it’s more about helping men than it is helping women. Crossdressing or transitioning is a very extreme way of helping heal men who are suffering a lot of pain. I fully acknowledge in another post that I see being a woman as something I needed for myself—it really doesn’t have to do with women as much as it does that I needed those qualities for myself, and I couldn’t access them as a man. If women see this as selfish, I wouldn’t blame them. Yet they can acknowledge that it does take courage to cross gender lines, no matter what the reason for it.



Paula wrote:

As for women being in any way subservient or inferior in anyway socially, financially or authoritatively that doesn't match my experience growing up. My Mother is a strong personality expecting to and being used to getting her own way, independently financially secure and in many ways (as a teacher) much more of a natural authority figure than my father.

Individual women don’t necessarily act out these stereotypes, but women as a whole are constantly having to deal with this perception of them. My mother was better at running a business than my father was, but she realized that she could only take over up to a point. She had to compromise so that he could keep up appearances. It also had to do with his picture of himself, I’m sure. He was much more supportive of women than most men his age, but even he had his limits, growing up in the 20s and 30s.

I know my Girl has no resposibilities, no work, no problems not sure if it woudl still be fun if I had to add all that stuff back in, but fun or not I do know that I would still do it, because I have to, just as I have to play music, it is part of me.

I did try to deliberately do things as a girl that required me to take some responsibility, like running errands, or running the support group I go to. In some ways, it’s hard to do. If I get lost in the work to be done, I forget to put out the femme cues, because not all of them come naturally to me. So the gender cues get all mixed up. Some of my transitioned women friends ran into this problem, because they worked in construction. As soon as they got caught up in work, they found themselves acting more like men, and less like women. It was harder to remember their new roles when doing automatic activities.

[Anne Bonny]

Facinating, glad to have this discussion. I believe we are all self phychologists and deal with all of this in our heads all our lives. Besides there is no psychologist - unless they also crossdress - who can really understand what is buzzing around inside our heads or the emotions and feelings involved.

We are all different, seems if you were surrounded by strong independent self supportive women and the other male figures around you were weak and not dominate by compairson that you as a male child would like tom boys be prone to want to be like them and to dress like them as well? They become role modles for you.

These classic stereotypes do tend to apply to some not to other women otherwise they would not exist and perhaps the rest are just misconceptions men have of women and then impose this on them culturally - while women have to push this away because it does not apply. But some where different elements of the stereotype do apply from time to time because we see it, at other times in the same women different elements do not apply perhaps this is the source of the rejection and resistance to it. Women feel stronger and say I'm not submissive or dependent! I'm strong, dominant, I am a leader a provider. Well... my mind is not really inspired to think about this right now so poor thoughts.

On the feminine characteristics we sense we have - I believe it was Deloris GG who stated "we are all human" hence there are no male or female characteristics - we share all of these in common and I believe we move in and out of them variably even moment to moment, morning to afternoon, etc.... And depending upon the variables we feel or are inspired by WE want to crossdress because we are more liberated than other men in being willing to move into it all completely so to speak wanting to savor the moment - Oh! it feels SO GOOD, I just love this dress! for example....

Like that country song "MAN! I feel like a woman...."

[Absaroka]

There are so many different themes here in this thread now that it can get very confusing. I think it's important that they are not mutually exclusive.

I did a thread years ago about my grandmother. It's buried here somewhere, and folks had some really interesting comments that they posted. She was a very strong and independent woman, and subservient to no one. The only thing she needed a man for was to get pregnant.

She was born when women couldn't vote. It was a time when women, even strong independent women like her, had to be proper, and propriety was enforced by her on her children with an iron hand. I think that she believed men were stupid enough to think that they were smarter than women, but she knew better.......

Then there are all the women who are in fact subservient. Something she actually might have liked to have had the luxury to be able to do.

Then there are all the women who symbolize the things men can't do. The senuality, the being sexy, the ability to be frivolous. There's the fact that women and children go into the lifeboat first, because the men are after all, expendable. There is the power to sway mens minds and hearts with sex, something as ingrained in our culture as the stories of Samson and Delilah or Salome and John the Baptist. Who wouldn't want to feel that power, rather than having it wielded against them.

We have feelings about all these things, and each of us has our own mixture of them. And if we talk about the woman we imagine would be, each one of us has a different combination of these characteristics.
And then there is sex. Sex and sensuality, which are so intertwinned. We have a member who was discussing transitioning with her therapist and he asked her, do you really want to be a woman or do you just need to jerk off into panties more often. An obnoxious, offensive question that offends us because sometimes it's true.

And that's just the crossdressers. We haven't even gotten to the folks who are at least partly transgendered. We talk about either/or here a lot. I like what Kate Bornstein said about the question "are you a man or a woman?" Her answer is no.......

Zari

[Bernice]

It is too late for me to be anything other than an old man who wants to wear women's clothes. But boy would I love to really be a woman...

Vieja

I agree. For me, it is too late. I have enough money for surgery, but I'll be 58 next month. My Mother (the source of the money) lived too long. She was not just outwardly hostile to anyone transgendered, but also vengeful.

Grey hair doesn't do well with laser removal, decades of testosterone have done their thing to me, and there's a small problem of about 150 extra pounds in the way.

No, I am what I am, and it's all I'll ever be.



Hugs,

Bernice

[Anne Bonny]

How we choose to see things beings limitations we place on ourselves. I have some heavy things happening with my wife's dementia, I am the central tent pole in the circus tent. My desire to dress is muted by all of this but still exists and always will though I have not been dressing for a while. I have enjoyed just a few brief episodes but they are intermittant, and far far between. Desire is just squelched.