So I was looking at what women were wearing today...

[Carolynn]

I see turtle necks and the "fake" turtle necks. I can't remember at the moment what they are called.
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Are you thinking of the Mock Turtleneck, that has just a little shorter collar and the zipper in back? I have a couple of those. The full turtleneck is just too much cloth around my neck and framing my already wide face.

[LisaK]

I see turtle necks and the "fake" turtle necks. I can't remember at the moment what they are called.

They are called Dickies. You might find some with zippers for less worry about makeup. Or if you're good enough, you can put in a zipper, or have a dry cleaning shop do it.

Dickies ? Dickies ? Did I log into the sissy forum by mistake ? hehehe

[Paula G]

I feel the need to ask if after the neck has been removed how much of the rest of the mock turtle is used to make soup, I suspect that the shells are used to make mock turtle shell glasses.

[Anthony Simon]

So I was looking at women, but at their faces mostly, yesterday. I was trying to work out where the look of my face (when it works) and the amount of makeup I wear might fit in. And actually I couldn't really.

The thing was that women walk about in the day to day world like they're just going about their ordinary business and their faces particularly reveal that. Not so many wear elaborate makeup, and even in those that do, there's a quality of them being in their day to day. It might be that they look very nice, or a bit sexy, or whatever - but not enough to make them stand out from the crowd.

So I'm not sure how to do that - to make my face have that quality of just getting on with her ordinary life, which seems to me the key thing about emulating the quality of the women's faces I see. When my makeup works (in the mirror at least, the reality may be very different) I seem to end up with some quality of "special" or "glamour" in the face which would doesn't fit into that "getting on with her ordinary life".

[Paula G]

The problem comes that for a "day-time" look most ladies will use very little or no make up, for our own particular reasons we cannot do that, however I do think that the less is more idea works where we can get away with it. Also choosing more natural colours for lips and eyes helps. At risk of being repetitive seek help from a professional, all the make up ladies I have consulted have given me some good tips and useful ideas, of course none of them agree with each other, but then that's part of the fun.

[Anthony Simon]

To give some idea of my problem:

I have quite a square face with a nose that is kind of prominent. The way I've been dealing with them up to now (though without consciously thinking about it) is by drawing attention away from them. That is by accentuating the eyes, lips and cheeks by using relatively colourful makeup.

In so doing I have created the problem for myself. It's not that the face looks wrong, it just looks "special occasion" because of the amount of eyecatching make-up I'm wearing. The thing is, if I go away from that level of eyecatching enough to bring the look down to "everyday woman", I think I'm going to leave my jaw and nose too prominent - that is they're going to say "man" to people.

I have a feeling that it might be possible to do something with contouring - which is supposed to be a relatively advanced technique and I certainly wouldn't describe myself as advanced. I already do that to some extent on my cheeks (which are basically flat) using different coloured foundations to give the illusion of shape (I found blush on its own wasn't enough).

Alternatively I could go in a shop and ask some pros to give me a makeover...But I'd like to see if I can do it myself first.

[Davita]

Whoa! I would rather do it myself first? Why waste all that time? Get the make over and listen a lot and ask a lot. After you had it done, study your face. Even after all of that, you will still need to practice. Now with practice comes your tweaks to make your make up all you. In addition, you get consistent with it.

Oh, I forgot to mention, when you do the makeover, naturally tell them you're looking for day time or office look and not evening or party time. While they are working on you, if you think they are over doing it, just tell them and let hem adjust it or explain why they feel the need.

[Anthony Simon]

Whoa! I would rather do it myself first? Why waste all that time?

I think we may have discussed this issue in the past - like in my Uncertain Foundation thread - and you may have come to a slightly different conclusion (if memory serves).

But a girl's entitled to change her mind...Like before I said I didn't know how to proceed. But I was looking in the mirror while I was out on Thursday (i.e. in drab), and I suddenly found my face going female and me asking myself just exactly what makeup it would take to feminize it appropriately so as to be convincing. I wasn't actually in public at this point, but in a kind of private cublicle. But the fact that I would go like that when I was out indicated how serious I was about the issue - I am always very keen to keep myself a man when I being a man when I'm out, but here I wasn't.

So, anyway, I just instinctively decided on a makeup regime then and there. And, that evening I tried it at home. It kind of worked, but because of the reduced level of colour in the eyes and mouth, I kind of went in and out of "the woman" more. At least that was so to begin with. But as the night wore on - and then into the morning - I found that the intensity I was "in her" increased. And finally, in the end, I thought this looks like a passable presentation - and it kind of held over the hours.

I thought it was worth doing, in the end. Like I went a bit further along the whole CDing path with it.

[Anita]

I've had to deal with that issue of not having an everyday look, too. If I don't provide stronger feminine cues, then I'll definitely stand out. That means the eyes have to be more expressive for me, too--got to get away from the jaw, the throat, and the nose. Lately I've pared it down to one dark line on the eyelid, and a darkening in the corner of the eye, and an eyebrow line. Still having to use beard concealer and all that, but that's the only makeup. Oh, and maybe a little eye shadow toward evening. I do have long lashes, though, and they don't need any coloring to stand out.

We have asked the question on here before; at what point in the process does the woman appear? I sometimes see her in very subtle things. When I had long hair, and I was combing it, I would suddenly begin to feel the change as I looked at 'her' begin to appear. Makeup can be the same--a line extended just so, suddenly brings her out. I don't always get that feedback, but when I do, it's striking how definite it is.

[Anthony Simon]

We have asked the question on here before; at what point in the process does the woman appear? I sometimes see her in very subtle things. When I had long hair, and I was combing it, I would suddenly begin to feel the change as I looked at 'her' begin to appear. Makeup can be the same--a line extended just so, suddenly brings her out. I don't always get that feedback, but when I do, it's striking how definite it is.

With me, the "woman" has actually appeared outside the process. That is to say, just occasionally, people have mistaken me for a woman when I'm clearly dressed as a man. That hasn't happened for over 10 years, but nevertheless it has happened. And I'm pretty sure that, when I was cast as Titania for a school play when I was 9, I must have been presenting some particularly prominent "female" traits.

What happened to me on Thursday was interesting, in that I was out and being a man, and yet she nevertheless popped out. This is something that would normally upset me, in that I want her to stay in her box and not expose me to ridicule. But she kind of played the game, in that she only popped out when I was in this cubicle by myself.

Like she actually turned the whole thing into part of the process of turning myself into a woman (rather than a kind of attack on male me by my repressed female side) by doing it when I was away from others and could give her my entire undivided attention. And I did, and after that, no problems at all when I was walking about. It was useful in that I was able to see the feminine aspects of myself without makeup. So then, by squinting and getting rid of the five o'clock shadow, I was able to get a fairly clear idea of just exactly what I needed to do to feminise my face appropriately.

So, you could argue that, this time, "she" appeared at the point when the process kind of become deeper and more serious for me. Like she did away from home and in a space that I hadn't reserved for her, so that "she" become a bigger part of my life. But there's also this thing going on where my male side is on better terms with my female side (which is probably the corollary of it).

When you talk about you combing your long hair, you extending a line just so, Anita, it reminds me of that. Like she's waiting there and somehow she just needs that little touch of care to bring her out. Kind of proof that male you cares.

[Kimberly Kael]

We have asked the question on here before; at what point in the process does the woman appear?

Has there ever been a particularly satisfying answer?

For me the woman has always been there, lurking in everyone's peripheral vision where everyone could see her so long as they weren't looking too closely. At lunch I could stroll to a food counter downtown in a suit and tie, and the person taking my order would instinctively call me ma'am. Later they would they try to correct themselves and the disappointment I felt was one of the early cues that I would later need to change my life.

While learning to feel comfortable with who I am, I did find it difficult to let go of four decades of memories of friends and family relating to me as male. There are still days when that reflex is there, and a mirror is actually helpful in rediscovering the woman in me. The months leading up to transition were a constant reminder that I'd stood on the wrong side of the fence my whole life: every time I'd go out and use a public restroom men would start double-checking to make sure they hadn't used the wrong door, or would insist that I was in the wrong place. How right they were! I'm just sorry it took so long for me to figure it out.

[Anita]

First. on the original topic; I remember sitting at the airport, with lots of time to kill, and trying to observe just how everyone was dressed. There was a lot of blandness out there, because travel attire is basic—jeans and t-shirts. It depressed me to try to really look at this, and I soon stopped. It’s the same feeling I get in thrift stores. There are so many designs and fabrics that seem ugly to me, and I find it hard to plow through all that negativity to find the gems that might be there. This is not a good attitude to have, and in fact has been a big problem for me. The mall might be a better place to try to see what’s going on around me.

Anthony wrote:

What happened to me on Thursday was interesting, in that I was out and being a man, and yet she nevertheless popped out. This is something that would normally upset me, in that I want her to stay in her box and not expose me to ridicule. But she kind of played the game, in that she only popped out when I was in this cubicle by myself.

I’m glad your inner woman is cooperating with you somewhat; waiting until an appropriate time to show herself. That’s how it should be, in an ideal world. Before I came out, I was so upset when I would feel ‘her’ trying to manifest. That battle went on for about four months, and it drove me crazy. I'd already made the decision that I was going to tell the world, but I did not want to be rushed into it. My inner gal was now impatient--after 30 years, she sensed freedom, and I could feel her strongly. It was a relief to finally buy the clothes, put on some makeup, and get out in the world.

Kimberly wrote:

For me the woman has always been there, lurking in everyone's peripheral vision where everyone could see her so long as they weren't looking too closely.

That's a very vivid description. I get a picture of what that was like.

It's only happened twice that I got "ma'am'd" in male garb. Since I don't have delicate features at all, I'm not sure where that came from. It didn't upset me or delight me, because it was so out-of-place. The clerk was embarrassed in at least one of the cases, because he did 'look closely' right after he'd said it.

I'm glad you're writing from the correct side of the fence now, Kimberly.

[Anthony Simon]

First. on the original topic; I remember sitting at the airport, with lots of time to kill, and trying to observe just how everyone was dressed. There was a lot of blandness out there, because travel attire is basic—jeans and t-shirts. It depressed me to try to really look at this, and I soon stopped. It’s the same feeling I get in thrift stores. There are so many designs and fabrics that seem ugly to me, and I find it hard to plow through all that negativity to find the gems that might be there. This is not a good attitude to have, and in fact has been a big problem for me. The mall might be a better place to try to see what’s going on around me.

If you want to depress the hell out of yourself, certainly pound stores here (where everything is a £ or under) are a good way to go. The one I've been in didn't have clothes though. Yeah, airports...people are in this in between state...in transit...(Gloria Munde).

I’m glad your inner woman is cooperating with you somewhat; waiting until an appropriate time to show herself. That’s how it should be, in an ideal world.

I think it's probably because I've given her a place in my mental world. Like, when I was talking to my analyst, I explained that I had a mental block with the stuff I was writing because I was afraid of the response. But she doesn't. She doesn't seem afraid at all, just knowing exactly what to do. The end result was that he said she sounded as though she was a kind of muse to me - like an inner voice that's worth listening to.

It's only happened twice that I got "ma'am'd" in male garb. Since I don't have delicate features at all, I'm not sure where that came from. It didn't upset me or delight me, because it was so out-of-place. The clerk was embarrassed in at least one of the cases, because he did 'look closely' right after he'd said it.

With my family, there have been women with squarish jaws and prominent noses, but you'd never mistake them for men. On the other hand, with me (and in certain lights anyway) when the spirit flows, my face gets taken over by a very specific womanish quality.