As I see some things

[Judith(SO)]

If I may I’d like to say a few things and give an opinion from one woman’s point of view and if anyone is offended by what I say then know that was never the intention, I’m purely offering my opinion as it sits right now, and I’m certainly open to criticism and suggestions.

I’ll say what I’ve been saying to my husband since I discovered his crossdressing habit. The issues have not been, and still are not about the fact that he has desires to dress in women’s clothes. The main issue is that it was kept a secret and he didn’t feel he could trust me enough to tell me, but then you don't just suddenly stop loving someone, even when cracks may appear, cracks can usually be mended and we're working at it, and only time will tell I feel if it's only cracks and doesn't turn out to be a full blown fracture.

Once trust has been broken I’m not sure it can ever be installed 100% again, maybe it can, we can just hope. I think that broken trust effects a woman different than it does a man, and I believe that men just can’t relate to what a woman feels when someone she loves dearly and has trusted for many years breaks that trust, and I say that from my own feelings and life’s experiences of talking with other women. Every time I’ve seen trust broken in a relationship a huge obstacle has then been introduced into the relationship, and from what I’ve seen it’s always been most difficult or nigh on impossible for that obstacle to be fully removed.

My husband can’t understand why I feel this way, although never at any stage have I suggested to him that I want him to stop his habit or activity or whatever one wants to call it. I’m not sure if he’s still doing it or when or where, but it needs time to adjust and work through things and find what the future holds, it’s all not something one can rush and make hasty decisions.
I must admit that at first I was very tempted to seek some retribution and make him feel something of what I was feeling, but then common sense prevailed as two wrongs will never make a right.
I would suggest though that it may be why some wives make a pact with themselves never to accept their hubby’s activity. The broken trust may well be the catalyst for some women to ‘make their hubby’s pay’, and of course it may well be the excuse some wives had been looking for to walk away from the relationship with their reputation still intact, as it could be seen as a valid reason for them walking.


My belief is that there has been a weakness in our relationship from the beginning, even though I never realized it. We both discussed the need for truth and openness when we decided to get married and there was nothing about me that I failed to disclose, and as I’ve told him, I believe it was just selfish of him to keep his secret, and to be selfish and in keeping this secret he denied me the truth, his trust in me was found wanting.

I find it hard to fathom that if this dressing up is as harmless as people would have us believe, then what is the trouble about disclosing it to someone who you say you want to spend the rest of your life with. I do also believe that there must be a sexual component about it, even if people say there isn’t, there’s something about women’s underwear and men which I think goes beyond relaxation and relieving stress.

Apart from what I’ve said about secrets and the harm they do, I’d suggest that it’s common sense that if a man has this need then the time to tell is before they marry, because at that time in the relationship a woman is deeply in love and their passion is at it’s highest, and at that time in the blossoming relationship she is likely to accept most anything her man offers about himself. She is more likely to accept it then than she is later in life when the heat and passion has waned somewhat, as it surely does, and the daily workload has increased, and she has other things to think of, such as children, and all the daily stress which goes with the package.

As I’ve said to my husband, I can’t accept that the reason he never told me is that he just didn’t want to hurt me. I believe it’s more about fear of rejection and belief that it may be seen as perverse, and that I would walk away from him, that, I suggest is a selfish act. We have a moral human right to be given the choice. I can’t say now after 22 plus years how I would have reacted back then, but I think that most women as I know them would admire a man for his honesty and courage in being forthright, however they decided to react.

I find it hard not to believe that if a man keeps it a secret then he himself must believe there’s something wrong with it, and it’s not a normal thing to do., why else would he be ashamed?
I also feel that if a man offers the information then it’s more likely that a woman would believe that if he’s open about it, then the activity in his case is harmless and there’s no danger to anyone or anything to hide, whereas when it’s found out years later there is always going to be that nagging thought of why did he feel he needed to hide it, and is there anything else attached to it that he isn’t telling me about.

I don’t think anyone who knows me would say that I’m a narrow minded person, and as long as nobody gets hurt or damaged then I believe people should be left to live their life as they choose. I may not be the smartest cookie in the jar but then I’m not the dumbest either as far as life goes. There’s not much about people I haven’t witnessed through my job and I’ve learnt never be hasty in making a judgment, so I’m prepared to wait and see where it all goes in time, and I guess as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so at this stage, for the better of our marriage I have to accept what he says and try hard to not drift back to thinking whether or not I can take it as gospel as to what he now says.

I had some very nice letters from a person off this Forum and I appreciate his honesty, it was refreshing and helpful, and it was uncanny his knowledge of what was happening with hubby and myself.
What I did find of some concern is what he said in regards to what may happen after ‘the Genie is let out of the bottle” because it brings changes, and one has to watch for extremes. I certainly do realize now that nobody, including my hubby, can say with any surety of what the future holds for him, and that in it’s self is stressing, although I know what will be will be, and sometimes things happen which we don’t have control over, but we’ll see.

This is different to anything else which has confronted me in my life because I’m not able to discuss it with my girlfriends as we do with most other things. Apart from my mother I’ve not been able to tell anyone, and she doesn’t want to know about it, so it’s difficult.

I did bring up the subject of men in women’s clothes with my 18 year old daughter, so as to quietly sound her out as to how she feels about the subject, and her overall reaction was ok, she did say though it depends on why they’re doing it, what are they trying to achieve etc, but then she’s in a different era. I never referred to her father as he says if it happens it’s his job to tell the girls if the need arises, but she and I are extremely close and she knows there’s been some tension about the place which was never there before, and I feel a need to have her to talk it over with, I need a crutch sometimes, but then if I go against my hubby’s wishes and tell her then I’ve also broken a trust haven’t I. I know she would never say anything, but then I have to look at myself in the mirror each day. It would be terrible if she had a bad reaction, and that could happen because it may be completely different to her when it’s her father, as against someone else.

I’m grateful for the opportunity to be able to let some of the buildup out, and what I’ve said is just from this woman’s point of view, I know women think different to men and sometimes our priorities may differ, but then a lot of it stems from the patriarchal capitalist society which has evolved and has robbed men of their hearts.

The divide which requires men to be manly, tough, angry, aggressive, ruthless strong etc inhibits men from showing their more tender gentle side as that’s seen as being a sissy and not a real man, whereas a woman these days can be seen as tough or gentle but is still considered as a woman, but then we only gained these rights by women taking the risks and putting themselves out there at their own peril, over a very long time
.
Having said this, I can’t see where you fellows will ever gain widespread acceptance because you’re being held back by those men who choose to commit despicable crimes against women and children, therefore the wider community, especially mothers, will always be suspicious of any male who behaves in a way which can be considered as outside what is generally accepted as normal. This is quite sad because the majority are paying for the sins of the few, but then that’s typical of life isn’t it.

I’m sorry for the length of this, but there always seems so much to say. I did intend touching on some other things which are on my mind,, but then maybe I’ll be able to come back another time.

Judith

[DonnaT]

The main issue is that it was kept a secret and he didn’t feel he could trust me enough to tell me ....

As I’ve said to my husband, I can’t accept that the reason he never told me is that he just didn’t want to hurt me. I believe it’s more about fear of rejection and belief that it may be seen as perverse, and that I would walk away from him, that, I suggest is a selfish act.

Many wives or girlfriends have indicated the biggest issue seemed to be a lack of trust. I don't see how someone else outside the relationship can dismiss that feeling.

And yes, many fear rejection. But that isn't necessarily based on whether they are ashamed or not.

Note that many of us have grown up, not being ashamed, but worried about how others will treat them if found out, especially with respect to being constantly bullied or teased. To avoid this, they keep it secret. A very deeply kept secret.

And having never experienced acceptance, since they've kept it secret for so long, and have had all these bad scenarios play out in their mind, it should not be any wonder that they will not just be open and upfront about it, absent some guidance from others. Which is one good thing about the internet and forums like this, getting CDs in similar circumstances to open up when in a long term relationship and before marriage.

I reckon it's hard for others, who have never had to worry about keeping a closely guarded personal secret, to fully understand the angst of opening up.

Even with the help of the Internet, there are plenty of stories of non-acceptance and complete rejection. So, even taking advice from others about being honest is hard to do. And yes, that is being selfish.

Whether or not you trust your husband to accept his saying he didn't want to hurt you, is up to you. Maybe it was that, plus fear?

No one really knows except him.

Was there a lack of trust on his part? Possibly. Is there a lack of trust on your part?

[Anthony Simon]

It's very hard, Judith, to reply to your post properly because there's so much in it. But I guess that speaks to the pent-upness of your situation.

Because you can't talk to your girlfriends or your mother, or your daughter, about the CDing that pent-upness is natural. But you also have to cope with your desire to gain some sort of retribution - and the more you feel pent-up the more likely you are to succumb to that.

My feeling is you need some way to extract yourself from this situation - and it's not at all clear what that might be. I want to suggest to you that they key to it is to get your husband to talk to you about this issue. He is, after all, the person it would be natural to open yourself up to about it.

I have a hunch that your husband is someone who feels he has to uphold - both to himself and to others - the traditional image of a "man". You can't fit CDing into that image. When he hid the CDing, he may have managed to avoid the inevitable conflict by just not thinking about it. Now it's out in the open, he's going to have to think about it. It'll be a very slow and painful process. It may be you can help with that by getting in there. It might also repair the trust in your relationship.

[Latanya]

very touchy subject!
for me it is not so much how i feel about cding but more of how i perceive others will view it. and for me i know that there would be a lack of acceptance(even though i see it as harmless) and to some extent revulsion!
the only place i can open up and express that side of me is her on the forum and with my therapist! society has a long way to go!

[Anita]

I must admit that at first I was very tempted to seek some retribution and make him feel something of what I was feeling, but then common sense prevailed as two wrongs will never make a right.

That seems like it could be a continuing temptation, too, so I would watch out for it. I know that I personally got very angry about breaches of trust, and that it's very hard to both accept them AND not punish the person for them. Believe me, I've had a steep learning curve on this. Only in my 40s did I find out how to weather one of these, and still keep the relationship going.

My belief is that there has been a weakness in our relationship from the beginning, even though I never realized it. We both discussed the need for truth and openness when we decided to get married and there was nothing about me that I failed to disclose, and as I’ve told him, I believe it was just selfish of him to keep his secret, and to be selfish and in keeping this secret he denied me the truth, his trust in me was found wanting.

It is selfish in some respects; it just is. There's no getting around that. The fear of being rejected as a potential spouse is also very real, and very likely. Pre-Internet, which is what your marriage was, there was no way to even know how others dealt with this. Maybe younger men are now being more upfront with potential mates, because they can read about some successful marriages. Is CDing any more acceptable now that there's more information about it? I tend to think not--I think that potential mates are still turned off by this. I'm not blaming them for their reaction, either--this is not something that's easy to accept.

I find it hard to fathom that if this dressing up is as harmless as people would have us believe, then what is the trouble about disclosing it to someone who you say you want to spend the rest of your life with.

There's two different issues here. Harmless, and acceptable. No matter how much we may come to accept this in ourselves, we know that it is still mostly unacceptable to others, and there's no easy way to change that. So disclosing it to others is still high risk. There's no way to make the argument for acceptance ahead of time; no way to prepare the person.

I do also believe that there must be a sexual component about it, even if people say there isn’t, there’s something about women’s underwear and men which I think goes beyond relaxation and relieving stress.

There can be a sexual component about it, and you can read about it in a certain percentage of 'beginning' stories on here. It's not a given for every CD. What percentage that may be, I don't know. We have to factor in that even if it is present, not everyone wants to write about it on here.

Apart from what I’ve said about secrets and the harm they do, I’d suggest that it’s common sense that if a man has this need then the time to tell is before they marry, because at that time in the relationship a woman is deeply in love and their passion is at it’s highest, and at that time in the blossoming relationship she is likely to accept most anything her man offers about himself. She is more likely to accept it then than she is later in life when the heat and passion has waned somewhat, as it surely does, and the daily workload has increased, and she has other things to think of, such as children, and all the daily stress which goes with the package.

You make a good argument here, Judith, and I would agree that what you're saying is true. Then I'd counter it and say that even now, acceptance of CDing is very limited and rare. That point is debatable--maybe people would say that it has changed, and younger women are more accepting. My own opinion is that they may be more accepting of CDing as a concept, but still not accepting of it in their partner.

The bottom line, though, is that as a partner, you should be given the choice about whether you want to be with a person who CDs. The honorable thing to do is to disclose before marriage--I don't think any of us would argue with that statement. In practice, we generally disclose only after we've been through one or two marriages. The risk of never finding a spouse is too great, when we're just beginning our adult lives.

As I’ve said to my husband, I can’t accept that the reason he never told me is that he just didn’t want to hurt me. I believe it’s more about fear of rejection and belief that it may be seen as perverse, and that I would walk away from him, that, I suggest is a selfish act.

No, I wouldn't accept that reason either. The fear of rejection is the stronger force here, in most cases.

What I did find of some concern is what he said in regards to what may happen after ‘the Genie is let out of the bottle” because it brings changes, and one has to watch for extremes. I certainly do realize now that nobody, including my hubby, can say with any surety of what the future holds for him, and that in it’s self is stressing, although I know what will be will be, and sometimes things happen which we don’t have control over, but we’ll see.

I think that we have to be very careful about what we promise to a partner. We constantly talk about taking baby steps on here, and one of the reasons is because we can't predict how we're going to react once at least one other person in our life knows about this. As long as it's just our secret, things tend not to change very much. Once someone else knows, then changes are more likely to occur. I consider myself an honest person, and I know from personal experience that my conscience wouldn't let me make promises to family and friends about this. I could see that it was a wild ride at the beginning, and I was not going to know ahead of time where it would take me. Eleven years on, I can say that it's been good overall. But there was no way to predict that, or know how it was going to come about. That's just my experience, but I have read similar stories on here.

The divide which requires men to be manly, tough, angry, aggressive, ruthless strong etc inhibits men from showing their more tender gentle side as that’s seen as being a sissy and not a real man, whereas a woman these days can be seen as tough or gentle but is still considered as a woman, but then we only gained these rights by women taking the risks and putting themselves out there at their own peril, over a very long time

Ideally, that's what some of us try to do--by putting ourselves out there in public, we try to show by example that CDs are OK people. Personally, I could do this because my life had not worked out the way I wanted it to, and I had nothing to lose--no high-powered job, no wife or children, and no one over me who could take away either livelihood or reputation. The average man has too much to lose to be a pioneer in this venture. If I had had any degree of success as a musician, I wouldn't be here, either. But I also might have been a very troubled and unhappy 'successful' musician.
I do know that in my case, I had greater success as a "woman" musician than I ever did as a man.
.

Having said this, I can’t see where you fellows will ever gain widespread acceptance because you’re being held back by those men who choose to commit despicable crimes against women and children, therefore the wider community, especially mothers, will always be suspicious of any male who behaves in a way which can be considered as outside what is generally accepted as normal. This is quite sad because the majority are paying for the sins of the few, but then that’s typical of life isn’t it.

There's a real disconnect when it comes to this issue. The perception is that men dressed as woman do all kinds of horrible crimes. But is it statistically so? I realize I have no real numbers one way or the other, and it's a subject that's hard to write about briefly; it could fill another post. You're right, though--whether it is justified or not, we can be seen with suspicion. I've not experienced it personally, but I've seen other transwomen discriminated against when it came to being trusted to be around children. This issue is very troubling to me.

It is good to see a post from an SO. I'm sorry to say that all of the SOs that I have gotten to know on here seem to have disappeared from the CD part of the forum, although they may still be in the SO-only section. My take on it is that they come here looking for dialogue and answers, and then just give up at some point. Maybe they feel that they're going to be verbally attacked in the CD forum, so why bother? (I have read statements to that effect) Whatever the reason, SO participation is much lower than it was say, six years ago, and any changes in that are welcome. I hope that you can continue to "talk" to us, Judith, about your concerns and how your situation changes over time.

Edit: I should state how I dealt with this issue in my own life. Though I was a teen CD, I went cold-turkey at 18, and it was not an issue for me. I never stopped completely, but I never dressed in a way that was apparent. I had no clothes of any kind, and no wigs, makeup, etc. Because it was not an issue for me, I did tell two girlfriends about it, and others on here have done the same--told a girlfriend or wife, because they thought their CDing was behind them. It's when the wife discovers that it's still going on that it becomes an issue. That never happened to me. When CDing came back, I was between relationships, and my next relationship was with a TS woman. So I have not had to deal with this issue directly. But I know that my last girlfriend does not accept this part of me--she only tolerates 'her,' and while we're still good friends, she does not want to be around my galself.

[Anna]

Hi Judith. Its nice that you are trying to understand what is going on.

Anita, Nice post and I think I agree with all of your points.

The divide which requires men to be manly, tough, angry, aggressive, ruthless strong etc inhibits men from showing their more tender gentle side as that’s seen as being a sissy and not a real man

I still think this is the big bugbear. We have an image to live up to; part of race memory maybe. Men have to be the protectors and providers and must be manly in everything they do. This is what stops us from admitting what we desire to do, and causes us to hide it in the closet!

They are only clothes, and women get free reign over what they wear, so why not men?

[Drea Lynn Stewart]

Wow... that is a lot to digest Judith, but at first glance, I don't find very much to argue with.

I can't speak to your husband's situation, or anyone else's for that matter, but in my case, I don't know if it was a lack of trust in my wife that led me to keep my crossdressing from her. At least, not on a conscious level. At the time we met, I hadn't been crossdressing for a few years, and it was almost seven years into our relationship that it crept back into my thoughts.

I didn't mention it to her before our marriage because I thought it was behind me - in that I never really thought about it at all, so I don't even know if I was consciously keeping it from her at the time.

When I started again, we were already suffering from a lot of stress due to other factors, and I recalled that in the past, crossdressing let me relax and de-stress, and so I went back to it. And it helped. Me at least, and at the time (unfortunately when my wife was unaware), my lower level of stress helped her lower her stress. I'm not ashamed of who or what I am - but that's after coping with who I am for years - but the act of crossdressing is not something easily and casually broached in conversation. She discovered my stash by accident before I was able to screw up the courage to tell her myself.

I don't blame her at all for her reaction. It's not something generally talked about over afternoon tea. I'm thankful that after several dozen long, good talks we're both trying to rebuild the trust. Neither of us is sure it'll ever be repaired, but since we both hope it will be, we'll keep trying. Some days are better than others.

It is going to take a long time before our mainstream acceptance becomes normal rather than newsworthy. I do think it well happen though - the younger generations are generally more accepting, but what's more, the whole of society is more socially connected, so small, distant events build upon each other and prejudice and bigotry are met with opposition from all across the globe. It's getting harder and harder for these things to be ignored, and the more they're talked about, the more people will realize that intolerance of crossdressers is just... wrong.

That said, I'm not saying that any spouse who is unsupportive of their spouse's crossdressing is in the wrong. I don't think anyone is saying everyone should be attracted to crossdressing; but I hope that one day, crossdressing will be as accepted in mainstream such that it is a topic that can be easily spoken of early in a relationship, and it carries as much weight for a potential couple as "is a Cubs fan" or "likes CSI" or "has Beiber-fever" is. Just one more component of a person's identity.

I know this isn't completely on topic with your thoughts, but I'm a bit of a stream-of-consciousness writer at times

Hugs,
Drea

[Judith(SO)]

Last Sunday evening I went out to dinner with just my hubby so we could have a talk without being interrupted, as you may imagine, with three teenage daughters there usually isn’t peace and quiet in abundance in our home.

One thing I really wanted to pin him down on was once and for all what did he consider as the leading reason why he wanted to wear women’s clothes, and not be frightened of my reaction to whatever. Basically, he said ever since a small child he was drawn to women’s clothes because of how they felt in contrast to men’s clothes. They just felt so good against his skin.
He also said that when he was feeling stressed out it sort of gave him an out by changing his appearance, and it seemed to change his emotions as it was a release.

I can appreciate the stress bit because through my job I’ve seen the debilitating effects stress has had on peoples health, stress without relief leads to distress and men seem less able to cope with stress than women, why I have no idea, but the results I’ve witnessed lean towards that finding. I would suggest that anything which relieves stress cannot be all bad.

He says that it seems to change his personality and with it his responsibilities seem less demanding, and things he may be stressing over at the time go away for a time, and it’s a sort of escape into a calmer world for him. I accept what he says with this, but I can’t imagine it myself, because I find it suits me best to just face up to whatever each day brings as I can’t afford to go down, but then as I know, we’re all different in how we deal with life.

This was the most enlightening discussion we’ve had to date over the year, and I’m glad I never pushed him or came out screaming at him or demanded he stop, but then my years of training in not panicking in a crisis certainly helped.
It gives me real hope that we’ll work through it and hopefully come to find something which will be acceptable to both of us, even though I know life will never be quite the same again, but maybe the obstacle will disappear given time.

Knowing my husband as well as I do I did come to realize that this is something which is real and if it wasn’t so important then he wouldn’t have re-acted as badly as he did when I discovered it.

Something I’m still having trouble with getting my head around is that if it’s simply just wearing the clothes for their feel and freedom then why is there a need to wear a bra. A bra isn’t the most comfortable garment ever invented and it has a specific purpose which is wholly related to a woman’s breasts. It is the one garment which one could said is quintessentially female. As a man’s anatomy is different from that of a woman then there should be no need as there isn’t anything to support. It seems to be that there may be a deeper purpose for men wearing a bra.

If as it seems, being a crossdresser simply means nothing more than clothing and there is no desire to change sex, be a woman etc, then I can’t fathom the need to dress completely, right down to all the underwear etc. Plus the full makeup and wigs, to me that isn’t just dressing, all that then becomes a transformation.

I fail to see why a man would want to wear high heel shoes because they are the pits. My mother wore them just about every day for 45 years and she ended up having the middle toes surgically removed because of the years of constant pressure and squeezing of the toes, and with all the injuries I’ve seen with women’s feet, legs and backs, as a result of high heel shoes, then they really should have been discarded a long time ago.

I’ve gone on longer than I intended again, but I just need to add something about what people say as to women having free rein over what they wear, so why not men.

With men I feel it simply gets back to all what has been said about people being suspicious of anything which they see as being outside what is generally accepted as normal behaviour, and even though it may not be against the law for a male to go out in public in women’s clothes, for now there still remains a stigma to some degree and sadly there’s always going to be angry young men somewhere who will take a violent physical response to a man dressed in women’s clothes. Who could ever know when this will change, maybe never, but then it didn’t come easy either for women to be accepted wearing what was once seen as male clothing. Pants, slacks, suits and jackets etc are now normal women’s wear, but it took women who were prepared to take the responsibility and risks 70 years ago, and put themselves out there amidst all the ridicule and scorn and soldier on to what we have today.
Maybe the time has come for men to take the same stance, but I can’t imagine there’ll be a critical mass of men prepared to take the risks. There always seems to be plenty who say people can wear what they want, but when it comes to the crunch it’s only the few who dare. Unfortunately history tells us that trail blazers on many fronts met with resistance which sometimes ended very badly.

When I was around 20 I used to sometimes wear my younger brother’s T’s, shirts, jackets and blazers out, with our own jeans, but with us, as with most girls, it’s never about wanting to look or act male, it was just about fashion and we thought it was a cool look and a bit daring, and we always wore our own underwear, there was never a hint of a thought about wearing boys underwear. Even with the clothes we always looked like girls and I never at any time gave it a thought I was crossdressing or whatever they called it back then.

Thanks for you fellows taking the time to give your thoughts and ideas, every bit helps, and I’m getting there, I look at it quite a bit different now than I did a year ago.

Judith.

.

[KimberlyS]

Judith, I am glad the two of you were able to have a good discussion and are moving forward together. I hope it continues.

[Anthony Simon]

If as it seems, being a crossdresser simply means nothing more than clothing and there is no desire to change sex, be a woman etc, then I can’t fathom the need to dress completely, right down to all the underwear etc. Plus the full makeup and wigs, to me that isn’t just dressing, all that then becomes a transformation.

Well, I agree with you that it's a transformation. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you feel you are a woman inside or want to be a woman, it might just be that you want to be someone else. If, as your husband says, it's about stress relief, simply turning oneself into an entirely different person means you've gone somewhere else in a profound way. I mean you've taken a holiday from yourself, which crazy as it might seem, can be just what you need.

That said, for me personally, both other reasons operate. I do have a wish that I was a woman. But also there is quite a lot of woman inside me, and this female side of me is something it has been helpful for me to get in touch with and it continues to be so.

I fail to see why a man would want to wear high heel shoes because they are the pits. My mother wore them just about every day for 45 years and she ended up having the middle toes surgically removed because of the years of constant pressure and squeezing of the toes, and with all the injuries I’ve seen with women’s feet, legs and backs, as a result of high heel shoes, then they really should have been discarded a long time ago.

I'm sorry to hear that about your mother. Of course, as a nurse, the ugly truths (amongst many ugly truths) of these things are going to be evident to you. In China they used to have foot-binding for women, where unnaturally tightly wrapped woman's feet (artificially made small) was considered attractive - the results being pretty horrendous.

From the point of view of this CD, a small heel (Like 1-2 inches) shifts my sense of self very definitely towards the female side - one's sense of physical balance is thoroughly shifted and that tends to affect the way I think about myself.

An aspect of these shoes that your post brings up is the unnatural constraint they impose on women - and, given the Chinese example, that constraint seems to occur in other cultures too. I'm just wondering if there's something in that of the social roles of women made physical - in that, in traditional cultures, woman are very much constrained and confined into narrowly defined roles. Like they're stuck at home, whereas men have the whole world as their canvas.

The other thing that comes to mind about it is that, in a sense, the example of the shoes applies to your situation. In your first post in this thread you said:

This is different to anything else which has confronted me in my life because I’m not able to discuss it with my girlfriends as we do with most other things. Apart from my mother I’ve not been able to tell anyone, and she doesn’t want to know about it, so it’s difficult.

That is emotionally you're being squeezed into a box, not able to tell anyone your entire feelings on the matter, never being able to let yourself go totally. Now that you have your husband to talk to, you're going to be better off - and I think that's a real advance. But I think you're still going to have problems.

Like now you've got a secret you can't share with the people you would normally be open with, without betraying your husband. And, if my experience is anything to go by, just having that one secret will tend to make you more guarded in a general way. It kind of proliferates so that one ends up not being totally frank and honest in all sorts of areas.

I think that's a difficult situation - and not of your making. My suggestion would be to find a therapist - just so that you have someone you can open up to without worrying about the consequences. You might not have to go very often, but at least it would give you that emotional space.

[DonnaT]

Regarding bras, for me, even though I rarely wear one these days, it's about feeling like I have breasts. I like the idea of having breasts, even though I've no desire to be a woman.

But since I can't have breasts, then wearing a bra is the next best thing. Followed by forms.

The spectrum (a condition that is not limited to a specific set of values but can vary infinitely within a continuum) of CD desires is quite wide.

[Leeza]

Judith(SO) said

Something I’m still having trouble with getting my head around is that if it’s simply just wearing the clothes for their feel and freedom then why is there a need to wear a bra.

For me the first thing I wore, after I was old enough to chose, was one of my Mother's bras. She made her own so there was nothing frilly or sexy about her bras.

My nipples had always been sensitive to the cold and that was a cool day. I put on her bra under my other clothes and went for a bicycle ride. I was out for quite awhile and my nipples didn't hurt. Many times when I knew I would be working outside in the cold I would have a bra on and sometimes if it was cold enough I would even stuff it. If my fingers and toes got cold I could still work, but if my nipples got too cold I was done for.

He says that it seems to change his personality and with it his responsibilities seem less demanding, and things he may be stressing over at the time go away for a time, and it’s a sort of escape into a calmer world for him.

The last time I had counseling my therapist told me he would do nothing to change my CDing as I used it as a means to deal with stress and depression. (And that was 30 years ago.)

Guys both by nature and nurture think differently than women. Guys tend to deal more with the logic of things where the woman tends more towards the feeling of things. That difference uses different parts of the brain. There have been studies of the brains of cross-dressers that show that their brain is more similar to a female brain than that of a non cross-dressing male.

Even though I was aware that I was different when cross dressed, I didn't start to realize how different till about 5 years ago when one of my GG friends commented that Leeza was a lot more fun to be with. Later I had a different GG friend comment that I could switch from male to fem without missing a beat as the need arouse. I did not realize the changes were that fast.

Back in the days when I was still trying to deny that I was a cross dresser at times the urge would build to a boiling point until I dressed then it would go away for awhile. It was as though there was another personality in there that had to come out at times.

I know now that that part of me has always been there and because of it my girls and their friends felt they could talk to me about anything. It wasn't that they had seen me or had a lot of knowledge of what a cross dresser was. In discussing it after they were adults, they felt it was the feeling they got from me, or you might say the vibes they got. Believe me some times they would embarrass me bad.

I really think the male side of me would have had a problem dealing with what I have dealt with for the last 4 years. My fem side has had enough problems dealing with it.

Leeza

[Dolores(GG)]

As others have said it is alot to digest, but just throwing thoughts out...

You are upset over the lack of trust. I think there are things in all marriages where we are hesitant to share with a partner, usually unfounded, out of insecurity. You are upset at him for not telling you because it is apparently not something "wrong" but then...why can't you confide in a close friend or your mother? Are you thus not trusting them either? The feeling you get when you think of talking to them- it must be how he felt. And remember, things may wax and wane, he might not have been thinking about it for chunks of time.

I am a woman, and I think you are wrong in thinking that a mans trust cannot be hurt. That is a silly thing to think- that they are completely different creatures from us devoid of one of the very basic human emotions.

You are worried about the potential sexual side of it. Say it is, hypothetically, slightly sexual- Is your husband not allowed to simply be a sexual being? He is not cheating on you, loving you less...

I think the bra and the heels are part of the transformation because they are part of the female uniform. It's not whether it is completely comfortable- but it is a novel tactile sensation I imagine and necessary. It's as if you dressed up on Halloween as an angel and wore no wings or no sandals or whatever- you would be more comfortable but you wouldn't be an angel anymore.

Going back to the trust thing- sure it hurt, but in the grand scheme of things his offense is negligible. I would much rather learn he is CD, than cheating on me, stealing money at work, or the myriad of ways a partner can lie to you. In short, you need to forgive and accept. By being angry you only justify the fear he had in telling you.

[Davita]

Trust, compromise, openness, society, love, honesty, fear, etc. Darn us human beings, we can't just be simply can we?

I told my better half four or six months after we married because I was scared she would leave me. Did I not trust her? How about I didn't know what I didn't know and was scared of the unknown. Did I know if this Catholic raised woman was as open as she seemed to be? No, because we had never confronted us with such a circumstance. Know what I found out? It took her over 25 years to tell me she almost me after I told her. So why did it take her over 25 years to tell me? Darn us human beings....

Another simple but telling statement, "yeah, I think it's ok, but I'm not sure how I would handle it if I was married to one." That's from a few of my close GG friends that willing go out with me for lunch, shopping etc. I'm a close girlfriend, but they still have that little voice because of circumstances, making me that little bit different. And life goes on.

Judith, there is no easy solution; that's obvious. Circumstances, personalities, life issues got you and your spouse to where you are today. All the blame for the lying, hiding and lack of trust, all the negatives that came out when hubby told you are not attributable to either of you. Yeah, some is, but try not to have both of you pay for so much beyond either of your controls.

Fuss openly, honestly, but without malice. Get y'alls dialog straightened up; allow some white lies for both of you when things can get too hurtful. Confess when it's okay to do so. Remember that old saying? Don't go to bed mad at each other? That applies.

I wish you two luck and hope that no matter how the marriage goes, you will be friends.

I almost forgot about the daughter. Since you know she sees your troubles, hold hubby's hand and have him come out if that will help. Ro and I took some back and forths about when to tell our daughter then I did it and was in the dog house for a couple months. Ro was furious; our daughter on the other hand thought it was cool. Another example of how we people can be so darn complex.

[Judith(SO)]

My reason for coming here was I believe that if you want information then always go to the experts, I thought I may gave gleaned some things which could be of benefit to handling it all going forward, nothing more than that. I was quite illiterate on the subject as only having seen it from afar, but when it becomes part of your life then I believed I should find out all I could, because informed decisions usually have a far better outcome than ill informed hasty ones.

I guess as to whether one believes a broken trust is negligible or not depends on your beliefs, how you were brought up and what you believe is ethical or not. I’m no Miss Goody Two Shoes, but I think I’ve earned the trust of those close to me, and although one can never say never, it would have to be something monumental for me to ever break that trust.

I haven’t been able to confide in friends or family because the person I have always turned to in times of need (my mother) turned right off after I began to tell her what I’d found out, plus, as far as friends go, I’m respecting the wishes of my husband in that he wants to keep it between he and I for now, I don’t want to get into a situation of the pot calling the kettle black, so to speak. If he chooses at some time in the future to tell specific friends or family, then that’ll be his decision, I’ll support him before and after in whatever decision he makes.

I’m certainly not angry now, wary yes, but no anger, I’m sorry if I gave that impression, I’ve moved on from that initial shock and being upset, and my husband knows I’m not angry with him, and that’s what’s important, but each person’s ability to deal with things varies.
I have very good reason to be wary of something which is out of the ordinary every day activity, and until I can assess anything which confronts us, and make an opinion as to what possible dangers there may or may not be, then I’m somewhat on edge, especially where my children are concerned, three years ago our youngest had a very nasty experience walking home from school.

We are getting there, things are much better now than a year ago, we’re rebuilding our lives. There will still be challenges ahead I know, because from what I now know he isn’t able to stop it being part of him, but it’s no good putting the cart before the horse, each challenge will have to be met on its’ merit.
I just hope I’ve instilled enough confidence in him so that if in the future his feelings or needs change (now the Genie is out of the bottle) that he can come to me and honestly lay it out, time will tell.

I thank you folk for your time and efforts, and know that I’ve taken from what you’ve said many things of value, you’re all very kind.

What I see as one of the main barriers you fellows have to break through is as I’ve said before, our Western Patriarchal Capitalistic culture teaches boys that, for he to be a man he has to show all the masculine traits, such as toughness, aggressive, loud, dominating, forceful, the strong one, the provider, etc, and this I suggest has robbed men of their hearts. I’ve seen some of the results of this come across my station on Friday and Saturday nights, and it’s sad to see. I agree that a man should be able to display emotions of tenderness, passiveness and compassion without being emotionally taunted or physically attacked, emotions are natural and shouldn’t be repressed.

I can’t see it happening where men will break through the barrier of the gender expectations which are put on you. It would take a massive collective movement to enable it to begin to happen to any degree, and I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to put their self in danger, although I can remember back to when my Dad used to flip over men wearing a pink shirt, and you’ve got past that, so hopefully……..
It’s just a couple of my personal; thoughts, whether they prove to be right or wrong, only time will tell.


I’ll take my leave now and wish you all the very best in the future.

Judith.