On Being Feminine

[Dolores(GG)]

So I kinda started ranting about this elsewhere and I thought I would make it a topic...

I love this forum, I find it a very supportive place with wonderful people but occasionally I see posts where people mention how "unfeminine" GG's are now and how they love wearing make-up and dresses and tights all the time, and comments that in a way imply they are more woman than us GG who don't. It bothers me because it feels very judgmental. I like to think of us all as sisters and equals, and when I see that it makes me feel as if that is not the case. I respect you, and I want to feel as if I am too.

If you enjoy dressing up to the nines that is great! I do too sometimes. I have a large collection of heels but you know what? I go out in jeans and flip-flops somedays. I like wearing hoodies when it is cold. I would hate to be seen on the street and for someone to assume anything about me or even worse, to make judgements about what I should be.

My mother was a very femme woman and it was very tiring to live up to her expectations of what a woman was supposed to be. Feeling worthless because I was a little overweight at times (I have a medical condition and I take meds that cause weight gain, but it didn't matter, because it no longer made me "pretty") because I didn't wear make-up all the time, because I didn't wear skirts and tights everywhere....and you know? I was a little like all you, my gender didn't totally match what I was born with. Being femme 24/7 didn't feel "right". The pressure to be it wasn't right, and I think the younger generations are just letting go of those gender constructs as a whole. I am not saying go to work in sweatpants, I am just saying that if I go to the grocery store in flip flops it is not the end of the world for anyone.

So, I have read a lot of the experiences on here. People who felt pressure to be male. To dress it and to "act" it- and obviously at some point you decided that you were going to be what you wanted to be and who cares if your not "meant" to wear a skirt? You enjoy it and it is what feels right. No? It feels like an extreme dissonance for that same individual to turn around and dictate what I should look like as a GG.

I don't mean to offend anyone or start a fight, but -to me- this is very hurtful and I think that I just need to point out how it can come across. That is all.

[Carol Ann]

Dolores,

Hon I know and understand how you feel about it and yes you are aloud to speak you $.02 worth .

When my mother except me as a boy who liked dressing in girls cloths she told me flat out "if you are going to do this you will be a proper lady at all times". To this day I have never forgot her words, but I almost live full time and I know what a pain it is to get dolled up everyday as I like you I dress down at times. Yes capri, simple top, and yes flats a lot of time.

Now if I am going out to shop or whatever I get propery dressed and try my best to be a casual niced dress women. I hope you will understand we are all not the same

[Dolores(GG)]

Carol Ann, I know everyone is different and I am not bothered at all that others like getting dolled up. That is fine! I just get bothered when I feel like that becomes prescriptive of how others should act. If someone says" Oh, have you seen how GG's are dressing lately? It is so unfeminine!" it no longer feels like someone is saying "This is how I like to dress" but it says "People should dress like I do."

[Karin]

I understand what you're saying Delores, and I think you're totally right.

Its funny.. before I came out to steph , all this was deeply buried. And whenever we would clothes shop I would always always push her to get 'pretties' lol. I never meant to go on, it was more subconscious I think. Then as soon as it was okay for ME to wear the stuff I've never pushed her to wear anything. She commented on that recently, and although its true, I hadn't realised.

[Dolores(GG)]

Thanks for commenting Karin. I'm glad you can get your own pretties now!

I think it is subconscious and I can understand how a CDer would look at girls in heels and say "Why doesn't everyone wear this!? It's awesome!" It certainly is sometimes. I know no one means any harm by it but I guess I can get a little sensitive to it.

[Anthony Simon]

My mother was a very femme woman and it was very tiring to live up to her expectations of what a woman was supposed to be. Feeling worthless because I was a little overweight at times (I have a medical condition and I take meds that cause weight gain, but it didn't matter, because it no longer made me "pretty") because I didn't wear make-up all the time, because I didn't wear skirts and tights everywhere....and you know? I was a little like all you, my gender didn't totally match what I was born with. Being femme 24/7 didn't feel "right".

Her pressure on you is a girl's version of "Man up". Like it's not enough for you to be physically a man [woman] you have to act out the gender construct of "man" [woman] to be treated as one. But, on the other hand, her being so unresponsive to your concerns sounds kind of "un-feminine", in the sense the idea of women as emotionally evolved.

The pressure to be it wasn't right, and I think the younger generations are just letting go of those gender constructs as a whole. I am not saying go to work in sweatpants, I am just saying that if I go to the grocery store in flip flops it is not the end of the world for anyone.

Well, the reality of it is most of us CDs need all the props we can get to look even half-way passable. All the aids to feminity we can get. But the reality of it for you GGs is you just want to be comfortable, a lot of the time. The less of those aids you have to bother with, the better (in that mode).

So, I have read a lot of the experiences on here. People who felt pressure to be male. To dress it and to "act" it- and obviously at some point you decided that you were going to be what you wanted to be and who cares if your not "meant" to wear a skirt? You enjoy it and it is what feels right. No? It feels like an extreme dissonance for that same individual to turn around and dictate what I should look like as a GG.

There's an insecurity thing which can produce over-assertive statements about the thing you're trying to be. Like they say that recent converts make the most fanatical religious types. It's a (not very good) means for trying to get over self-doubt.

But, whatever, I don't much like it either.

[Dolores(GG)]

Anthony Simon, it's funny you mention the "aids of femininity" because it was what got me on this in another thread. I was saying how the few times I noticed CDers on the street who failed to pass it was because I noticed they had "too much". I think that, depending on the context of course, less can sometimes work more. It draws less attention and I think people are more likely to just read a CDer in the crowd as just another GG. I think that gaining experience in make-up and dressing is what helps find that balance.

There's an insecurity thing which can produce over-assertive statements about the thing you're trying to be. Like they say that recent converts make the most fanatical religious types. It's a (not very good) means for trying to get over self-doubt.

I think your right.

[Anthony Simon]

Anthony Simon, it's funny you mention the "aids of femininity" because it was what got me on this in another thread. I was saying how the few times I noticed CDers on the street who failed to pass it was because I noticed they had "too much". I think that, depending on the context of course, less can sometimes work more. It draws less attention and I think people are more likely to just read a CDer in the crowd as just another GG. I think that gaining experience in make-up and dressing is what helps find that balance.

Right, it read that and it was going through my mind as the kind of upside down version of the "aids to feminity". On the other hand, I've only ever read one CD like that.

GGs seem very attuned to nuances in the way a woman is dressing as modes of self-expression. So if you get a mode of dressing that is very un-nuanced - which is what a lot of aids to femininity produces - that just looks "odd" to you - in a sense, maybe, "unwomanly".

I'm subconsciously always scanning the field of women to see if there's any CDs out there I can identify with. I know that I tend to do that with stuff on TV and in mags. Like I look for a picture which might be a CD.

As far as photos goes that does seem to run on the "too much feminity" basis. Like I can remember a TV documentary about the celebrity CD (over here in the UK) Leah True. And I knew, when I saw her photo in the TV guide, that this was not a GG - because of that sort of thing.

[Noeleena]

Hi,
Dolores.

On being Feminine .

I think youll get it, i dont & have never thought of my self as feminine, theres a number of reasons for that, one i dont look female enough for that, facial features are very male, like a few other female / woman i have pic's of & know, its not how i dress wont make any difference, with in our groups im a member of we dress in Renaissance time 1400 -1700. the clothes iv made suit me well even as a wench and a chateline lady of the Castle, i can just make it,

though im very comfortable dressed that way , the other is Edwardian 1900-1914, now this is quite different and where i fail the clothes iv made are very plain because as you know facial so no frillys or like most of our women wear, it would not look right & i would look stupid . so i keep every thing plain & simple, i have the height that is right for my body shape & size, no issue there,

Now if the ? is about looking femininen then no im not , if the ? is about being femininen as in who i am as a person in my manerisims my interaction with others then yes very, from those i know & who have told me as they studyed myself, yes i was under thier eye's .

Iv never tryed to be other than i am just a female born a little wrong as i'v talked about before,

One detail is my body is shaped as a normal female strength wise very good yet nimble on my feet, active even at age 66 people dont belive me when i tell them my age, most comments about my face are lovely my skin is lovely an olive completion and Jos says i dont like your skin because its so lovely. Jos is 61, so as i say i may not have all my parts for a normal female i do have other blessings that show in different ways, the bottom line is i may not be a feminine female, im still a female no matter what, i may not have explained it how i wonted to, youll understand,

...noeleena...

[TammyT]

Excellent posts, Dolores, and you're well within your right to say them. It does bother me sometimes that the vast majority of photos I see of CDs (in my local group, particularly) are of them dolled up in clubwear or eveningwear with very high heels, and I can't help thinking that they're only look at one small part of femininity. Mind you, as crossdressers they presumably dress in male clothing -- and dress down in male clothing -- all the time, so it's understandable that the opt for the most glamourous looks when they go en femme, but you're absolutely right to say that they (we) shouldn't dictate what is and isn't feminine.

As a GG, I hope you don't feel any less womanly when wearing sweatpants and flip-flops. A female friend of mine is famous for wearing pants and flip-flops in a social setting, but believe me when I say she is no less feminine than any other women present. I love seeing women being comfortable in a T-shirt/pants/sneakers combo almost as much as a 'girlier' top/skirt/flats combo, and your post is a great reminder that both are probably just as comfortable being women as each other.

[Dolores(GG)]

noeleena, first of all, I am very jealous of the period costumes! They sound like a great deal of fun. As for the thread, we have two subjects intertwined now. In another thread I was talking about how I think (personally) that the best CD practices are to be able to dress down as femme just as much as dressing up (because, as GG that is part of the spectrum) . As male, you wouldn't go out in a tuxedo all the time, right? I am not discussing natural femininity at all. In fact, I think that the attitude is the most important part to passing, more than make-up and heels. I have seen threads were people said they were called "miss" when in drab! I think that is why. Then I made this thread because I felt that if someone said "GG's are not feminine nowadays" (because we don't dress up everytime we go out) that it was unfair. No worries, hun, I am not a feminine female either and I do have all the parts!

Tammy, thank you for your post! I understand completely that if your going to CD then you probably want to look nice, woman's clothes are so much more expressive and bold. When my hubby dresses I love to see some nice heels and a skirt. But, I feel I can be sexy wearing a brown bag and if you want to feel feminine- it is something that flows out from inside. It isn't the lady bits that make you woman, or the tights and the makeup, it is the feminine energy you exude (and sometimes I do too ). And like you said, men are dressed down the rest of the time, so it feels like a double standard that I should not be able to without giving up my GG card somehow.

[Anne Bonny]

May second - wow...this is a wonderful post I would like to respond anyway. You are absolutely right, we all have the right to dress however we please. Actually you are giving insight into who you are as a person. Women just dress however they want and it is not necessarily feminine. I would think and thank you so much for seeing us as equals and more than that as sisters! That is how it should be, you recognize that at times this is exactly the simple acknowledgement and acceptance we want and it is not asking for very much, so I appreciate your thinking of us in that inclusive way as sisters. We are together in the same spirit on occasion especially when our femininity is flowing within - that feeling does come and go. Who would not want to be in a dress with the woman wearing pants or sweats or whatever? That is what it's all about just being free to dress according to how we feel inside, or according to some standards with the exception we may want to meet feminine standards instead of masculine for the an occasion or setting and we should be perfectly free to do so without anyone judging us there should be acknowledgement and acceptance that Anne is feeling feminine isn't she pretty this evening, or isn't George handsome in tonight.
I understand, you may feel a little masculine at times, but mainly that you enjoy the right to dress without being judged. It does seem women opt frequently for jeans, shorts, slacks, and less frequently for skirts and dresses, not true of all women but for many it is and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. You are a GG and just like us GM's you can dress however you please, we who have a mixed gender just reserve the right to also dress feminine and wear whatever feminine clothing we desire and that may very well be sweats and jeans with flipflops with lingerie and make up or not, accessories or not depending on how we want to dress. I see nothing wrong with this I can only speak for myself as a MtF crossdresser.
Oh, and I just try to purchase average women's wear things I would wear if I really were female. Yes I have flats, women's leather flips, Shorts jean and the green short shorts, Women's jeans, Polos and I do wear them and feel just as feminine as when I wear a skirt and top or a dress, Make up or not, accessories or not - I can feel just as feminine and still wear pants, albeit women's pants.
I have learned light make-up is more - the idea with light make-up is to look natural just a touch of mascara, and a neutral lipstick that matches our natural lip color, and possibly without any foundation, or just a touch of mineral powder if we want to even out our skin tone. Of course a natural look is not the only way to do make-up because evening make-up can differ from work make-up, and make-up worn around town or at home on the weekends. I do enjoy a little but don't always wear make up when feeling feminine this I think is what women do, all depends on what you want to do or to wear.

[Kelly]

Dolores, thank you for starting this discussion. I have thought about what you originally said and it has helped me in clarifying a few things.

Many years back, my daughter came home from school all happy and bubbly. She had received a ton of compliments about the new dress she was wearing. I told her that was wonderful, but remember the dress doesn't make the girl, the girl makes the dress. She loved it the moment she got it, she radiated her femininity the moment she put it on. That is attitude.

Your right. Passing is all about the attitude, not the trappings. Going overboard with the trappings, without the attitude, no way you are passing.

Now I am sure there are CDers out there that could give a whip wither that pass or not. Even not caring is an attitude.

On to the second theme of the thread. Casting aspersions on a GG's femininity is unfair. It is hogwash, catty, and narrow focused. I can think of a lot of reasons; but, none are excuses.

Kelly

[Ralitsa]

This is a great thread, and I agree with you completely Dolores.
Well I'm just going to say again what everyone else has already. To be judgemental toward a person because they are not "masculine enough" or "feminine enough" is equally wrong and narrow minded. And when those judgements are based on clothing is downright ignorant.
Myself, I don't even quite understand the logic of equating the worth of a person to a criteria like the degree to which one imitates a stereotype. Regardless of whether the stereotype of wearing fancy, frilly, pretty clothes is a correct interpretation of femininty; why would displaying a particular level of femininty be linked to the value of that person?
I suppose there is a deep psychological explanation, but I don't want to know that bad

Anyway, thanks for reminding us of our manners Dolores, and feel free to jump up and slap us if we do it again.

[Hope]

I'll throw a few more cents into the ring?

I don't know if people are implying GG's simply aren't being feminine to be hurtful. I think in many cases, it's simply a jealous feeling...like; here is a GG, and..sigh...she's wearing pants? If I were a GG....fill in the blanks.

That being said, it's always good to think about it and understand other's feelings on these subjects. Goodness knows, as CDer's, we OUGHT to know about feelings and how fragile they can be.

Thanks for your comment....good for thoughts