JUNG - Anima

[Danielle La Belle]

Ok. So here is another point of view. Always open minded, one can see how the Jung works can be skewed in another direction that is not so far fetched as one might first think. I have access to his extensive works thru the on-line "Questia Library Service." Yes, they charge a fee for the use of their library which is supported by major players such as "The Wall Street Journal", "HP," "Apple"...etc.... I KNOW THIS IS LONG. It was the only way I could get it all here since it cannot be linked except to "Library Members."

Note the concept of "templates" and the need to identify. While we are all sure of being "hetro," there is much that can be gleaned from this information.


Jungian templates for contemporary gay men; or "what does Mary want with that bear and what's the diva dishing?".

by Michael G. DeVoll , Christopher Blazina


Some of the most passionate political arguments today center around gay and lesbian issues. In the past few years, we have seen public referenda on gay marriage defeated, protests over company policies for domestic partner benefits, court battles over adoptions by gay and lesbian couples, and heated debate over the law enforcement of hate crimes related to homophobia. Additionally, we have witnessed several high-profile murder cases involving gay victims. Counselors, psychologists, and other mental health professionals (for simplicity, henceforth referred to as "therapists'') need to be equipped to help gay men and lesbians cope with the myriad issues that could arise as a result of their sexual orientation.

Hopcke (1989) suggests that gay people must carry the burden of going through a special psychological process of self-consciousness in both their sexual and emotional development. This is due in large part to the lack of models for homosexual self-image and relationship. The exploration of the sexual identity starts with the basic questions of "Who am I, and why am I this way?" These questions can cause such inner turmoil when asked by a gay youth because we live in a culture focused upon heterosexuality as the norm. This can lead to the internalized message that being gay is wrong, perverse, immoral, or deviant. Some of the ways that the resulting turmoil manifests itself includes poor self-acceptance, extreme sensitivity to being misunderstood, social withdrawal, poor school attendance or performance, substance abuse, participation in prostitution or pornography, running away from home, and suicide ideation and/or attempts (McDonald & Steinhorn, 1990). When underlying issues are not resolved, difficulties may also continue into adulthood. McDonald and Steinhorn (1990) suggest that there are societal pressures that increase lesbian and gay men's susceptibility to alcohol and drug abuse that have been estimated to be as high as 33 percent, as compared to 10 to 12 percent for the general population. Similarly, Simonsen, Blazina, and Watkins (2000) recently found that gay men who felt conflicted about adhering to stereotypical male gender roles were more likely to have symptoms of depression and anxiety. While there is a dearth of research about how gay men adjust to societal pressures of a largely heterosexual-focused culture, historically we know that it was only in the past 30 years that the American Psychiatric Association suggested that being gay was not a mental illness. Further, theorists from Freud onward have seen homosexuality as largely a regressed state of immature functioning. With these notions still a part of cultural lore, gay men need to have positive models to emulate. We believe that therapists need to be aware of potential positive templates in an effort to share them with clients.

In order for the therapist to be of assistance, there must also be an understanding of sexual orientation, both what it is and where it comes from. Unfortunately, there is no easy answer or explanation for either of these questions. However, by examining notions inspired by Jungian theory, some assistance is provided in understanding the psychological process of gay individuation. In particular our focus is upon Jung's use of archetypes. Most evident is the mythopoetic movement's use of this Jungian notion that includes Robert Bly's "Wild Man" (1990), Jungian analyst Robert Johnson's (1988) use of the Warrior, and Moore and Gillette's (1990) use of the notion of psychic integration. Each of these theorists use the Jungian inspired perspective, claiming their models are derived from archetypes, universals, or a priori templates to which all humankind can relate. Even if one calls into question the existence of archetypes, each of the theorists mentioned above use myth and mythology as templates for men's gender roles. That is, the way that myth is interpreted leads to a prescriptive notion for how men should conduct themselves, be it Bly's Wild Man or Moore and Gillette's integrated King, Warrior, Magician, and Lover. This use of mythos is historically consistent with what humankind has done over the course of its existence, that is, derive models for "appropriate" behavior from the stories of heroes, villains, demi-gods, and the like. What we suggest here is that just as Jungian templates derived from mythic stories guide heterosexual men, so too can gay men use templates. So, in short, gay men need descriptive and prescriptive models as well. In this paper we present some possible templates for gay men using the Jungian notion of individuation, which stresses integration of stereotypical masculine and feminine characteristics. We will focus on gay men to the exclusion of lesbians with the realization that although the individuation process may be similar, it would be better dealt with separately.

TEMPLATES FOR GAY INDIVIDUATION

To examine gay individuation from a Jungian perspective, it is necessary to have some basic understanding of Jung's concept of the collective unconscious and archetypes. Jung built on Freud's concept of the unconscious by dividing it into two distinct parts. The more superficial, individual component he referred to as the "personal unconscious" and the deeper more universal aspect he called the "collective unconscious" (Jung, 1959/1969). In terms of the latter, Jung saw this as universal and common to all people. He also saw the collective unconscious as being composed of archetypes--symbolic figures that were a priori templates for human behavior. So these archetypes are symbolic types of characters or personalities that populate our collective unconscious and can potentially guide our behavior as we identify with them.

We acknowledge that some claim "archetypal" material is derived from universals; however, we are mostly interested in them as a product of social construction and therefore will refer to them in the spirit of "templates." That is, these are models that cultures create to provide guidance for their people. Many of the mythopoetic writers have taken myths, reinterpreted them beyond their original contextual meanings, and then subsequently developed templates for men's gender roles. With that said, it does not, however, diminish their use on the cultural level. Whether one is of the belief that these templates are taken from a universal collective or a socially constructed descriptive and prescriptive model, both approaches lead us to the same place; we use these models to guide our gender-specific behavior. These can be used as psychological guides for the individual, in this case "how to be a man," or cultural templates as guides to resolve social tension (Blazina, 1997). Archetypal templates provide blueprints for both.

However, before looking at the role these archetypal templates play in gay men's lives, it is important to briefly examine the Jungian notion of homosexuality. Jung seemed to believe that straight men would identify with their personas as they are socially and culturally observed or biologically defined, whereas gay men would instead identify with their anima or feminine aspect (Downing, 1989). Jung dealt very little with homosexuality in any direct way, but others have examined his views. For instance, Hopcke (1989) explores Jung's writings over the course of his career to see the maturation of his view of homosexuality. He then proposes four attitudes that Jung held regarding homosexuality: (1) homosexuality ought not to be a concern of legal authorities; (2) homosexuality is best understood when put in a historical and cultural context; (3) an individual's homosexuality should be distinguished from other aspects of the individual's personality; and (4) an individual's homosexuality has a meaning peculiar to the individual in question, and psychological growth consists of becoming aware of that meaning for the individual.

From these four attitudes, Hopcke proposes three Jungian assumptions/theories of homosexuality: (1) homosexuality is nearly always a result of a particular relationship with the feminine, (2) homosexuality may result from an incomplete detachment from the original archetype of the Hermaphrodite, and (3) homosexual orientation is determined by genetic or biological factors (i.e., constitutional homosexuality). A problem with the first two statements is that they present homosexuality only as the result of maladaptive integration of the gay man's feminine side, a problem in need of a solution. Instead, what should be considered is that being gay is a normal variation within the developmental continuum.

Hopcke examines other Jungian theorists' and therapists' ideas on homosexuality and also concludes there is a trend in treating homosexuality as pathological or as a state of psychological immaturity. Hopcke finds that what is all too often found in "first generation" Jungian thought is "a stereotype in psychological guise" (p. 96), presenting gay men as over-identified with their feminine aspects, who feel compelled to pursue a tentative form of masculinity based on sexuality. Although there has been some movement away from this homophobic perspective, most therapists and theorists still practice it. When dealing with gay men, the problem is not resolving their sexual orientation, but helping them to come to their own individuation within a culture that does not necessarily support it.

Most of contemporary Jungian discussion of gay men also centers around their relationship to their anima or other archetypes like the puer aeternus, the Divine Child, and the senex, the Old Man. Hopcke takes all of this discussion into consideration and then presents a new theory in which sexual orientation is determined through a complex interaction of the archetypal templates of the masculine, the feminine, and the Androgyne. Hopcke strives to make clear that this is not a simple process to evaluate. Rather, these templates are integrated, then actualized and acted upon both physically and emotionally with another man. He doesn't see gay men's sexuality as simply a flight from womanhood, an identification with the feminine, or an androgynous acting out. This is also more consistent with current Jungian thought. In their book Transforming Sexuality (1994), Ann and Barry Ulanov note that each of us must deal with the archetypes that are opposite to our conscious gender identity. It is our own unique style of the integration of these opposites that give us our own individual make up. Hopcke just adds the third archetype of the Androgyne to the mix as the bridge between masculine and the feminine archetypes. He sees archetypal roots in this androgyny and looks to Jung's characterization of the Hermaphrodite as an important theoretical tool. In the individuation process of gay men, he sees this third component as absolutely necessary because of the different relationship (as opposed to heterosexual men) to the psychosocial definitions of masculinity and femininity (1989).

FORMER GAY TEMPLATES FOR INDIVIDUATION

So the task now is two-fold: to see how standard Jungian archetypes might function in Hopcke's modified theory involving three archetypal templates, and to see if other more contemporary gay archetypes might be developed for application to this theory. When examining traditional sexual archetypes as explored by Jungian theorists, the problem of heterosexism is often seen. This lingering heterosexism can be seen in Ann and Barry Ulanovs' discussion of "The Animal/Animus as Complex," where they tell of the results of a client who had been "gay bashed." The client afterwards physically gained weight and "stood more solidly." Emotionally, they describe the client as wearing his "gay manhood" more on the inside rather than publicly, "as something substantial in his identity, not a theatrical facade" (p. 34). They say he now looked like someone who could not be picked on. "He had learned a terrible lesson--that savage reaction to unintegrated feminine elements in him had nearly cost him his life, but ultimately had saved it by what it taught him" (p. 34). This man's failure to conform to societal gender roles is presented as the problem instead of the fear, terror, and violence perpetrated on gay men by a homophobic society. It is the gay man who must "become more integrated" (i.e., must not act so queer), not the criminal who must become more accepting and less violent. This fails to take into account the widely held belief that "homophobia derives, in part, from heterosexuals' fear and anxiety about their own sexuality--fear about the homosexual desire that might exist within their own psyches [and gay bashing is their] impulse to externalize those homosexual activities" (Harper, 1992, p. 64).

The Ulanovs' homophobic attitude is also seen in their book The Witch and the Clown: Two Archetypes of Human Sexuality (1987) in the chapter on "The Witch in Men." Here they posit men's fear of the witch brings about a defense mechanism of avoiding women, thereby choosing the homosexual route as the least dangerous route, only to be touched from a distance in anonymous sexual contacts. This presents the stereotype of the gay man as only a sexual creature having unfulfilling anonymous sex.

NEW INTERPRETATIONS OF FORMER TEMPLATES

It is possible to take some of the traditionally held archetypes and place them in Hopcke's model. For instance, Ulanovs' description of the feminine archetype of the Witch template includes hidden ambitions, the possession of secret knowledge and powerful spells, and a cackling revenge. Instead of being the one who makes a gay man flee from women, she could be seen as the one who teaches him the way to entice another man, and the one who drives him toward his sexual ambitions or helps him react to the one who spurns his advances.

The same process of reframing could be undertaken with the masculine template of the Clown. The Ulanovs characterize the Clown as one who is in a costume of vivid colors, uses slapstick surrealism and swoops of laughter, while personifying the worst and most hidden feelings of inferiority. Refrained in this new theory, the clown would be the masculine part of the gay man who is concerned with how he is perceived by others, the one who must be dressed just so and must have a certain body type. In short, he is concerned with a particular image. But he is also the one that can be easily hurt by other's words and opinions. His "slapstick surrealism" is evidenced in many forms of "camp" that are seen in the gay community. Camp is the performance of any number of outrageously exaggerated culturally stereotypical gender roles. These are often androgynous, like drag queens, but can also be ultra-masculine stereotypes in any type of performance situation.

Although there seem to be few androgynous traditional archetypes, these can also be put into Hopcke's theory. Jung (1959/1969) describes the archetype of the Trickster as having a fondness for jokes and malicious pranks and being a shapeshifter. Doty (1995) expands on this with his description of the lunar trickster, in which the lunar is often equated with the female or anima. As a bridge between the masculine and feminine, this androgynous lunar trickster can fill the third role in this new model with humor, but also could be the source of frustration through his pranks. This is the type that fools those people who are concerned with very traditional, structured gender roles, but is also the one who feels the oppression of the culture in an all too often brutal way.

Other Jungian archetypes, such as the Mother and the Hero, can fit in the model as well. The Mother would be the gay man's desire for comfort and care or his desire to give such. This can be a self-soothing function that allows for self-care and as well as sharing nurturing comfort with others. The Hero would be the gay man's longing for someone to save him or his need to save others. Hopcke (1989) is clear to point out that there are polarities of dominance and submission within the masculine.

Also within the masculine archetype, Hopcke looks at the puer-senex relationship, typical of many gay relationships involving a younger man (the puer aeternus, or Divine Child) and the older man (the senex, or the Old Man). Of this, he discusses the relationship as an initiatory one in which the younger man can come to know himself through an erotic bond with the older man. They need to do this because they "have been robbed of their masculine self through social values and stereotypes which deny that they are men at all" (p. 172).

Although this reframing of traditional archetypes could be a valuable tool for therapists, it is also valuable to look for some new templates that could be applied specifically to gay men. Taking a cue from gay male culture and slang, a feminine archetype could be represented by the "Queen." She is the one who is in need of worship and praise and is used to getting her way. She commands attention and can have some attributes of the Witch, with a sharp tongue and one who is not to be trifled with. Sometimes she takes the form of the Bitchy Queen--the "prissy" gay man who takes on culturally traditional ultra-feminine mannerisms and has a sharp tongue and an acid wit. In pop culture, this archetype can be seen in the character Jack from the NBC series "Will & Grace." With his acid tongue, quick comebacks and "effeminate" mannerisms, Jack is the ultimate Queen. There is also the sub-type of the Gym Queen--the outwardly feminine yet very muscular man. In gay lingo the Queen is sometimes referred to as Mary, sister, girl or girlfriend, missy, or simply by female pronouns.

Building on this royal language, a masculine archetype could be represented by the "King." He is the one who has control, authority, and power and is seen as the acme of masculinity (again, in a culturally stereotypical form). Hopcke sees representations of this archetype in gay erotica where there is an expression of contemporary gay consciousness much in the same way folktales express important psychological themes in folk culture in which tales were told. These roles include the bear (usually a large, hirsute man), a uniformed man, the jock, the all-American young man, or any other of the many culturally stereotypical ultra-masculine roles. The whole line-up of the Village People is a virtual roll call of King archetypes.

For the androgynous archetype, an ideal character would be the drag queen, for our purposes referred to as the "Diva." This is a man performing as a woman in a very glamorous, theatrical way. It is not that they want to be women, therefore not transsexuals, or that they just want to wear women's clothes, therefore not transvestites. The perfect example offs archetype is gender-bender RuPaul, accessing the cultural expressions of women to push the boundaries of what is "man" and what is "woman." This is something that gay men (or any homosexual, bisexual, or transgendered person) must do every day. They challenge what it means in our society to be men, but each one does it in a different way, depending on how he has actualized these three archetypes in his persona. And since the individuation process is unique to each person, there is no one pattern that will be followed; rather, there will be as many paths of individuation as there are masculinities within the gay community. This may be in keeping with Pleck's (1981) notion that we need not speak of masculine but rather masculinities. In the same way this notion of pluralism can be found in the gay community. The templates discussed here point in that direction. Perhaps one of the challenges is affirming this multiplicity within the gay community, as well as helping heterosexual therapists who work with gay men appreciate these different tracks of individuation as legitimate.

CONCLUSION

With the rising numbers of openly gay men, therapists need to be equipped to help these men with the issues associated with living a life that does not fit the norm of our culture. They can do this by using both traditional archetypal templates and the new gay ones presented here. Therapists must be self-aware and realize that they may still be too quick to jump to the oversimplification that gay men are simply immature and not fully developed, with some overwrought mother complexes. They must be willing to step outside of the traditional heterosexual viewpoint that being gay is a sign of deviance or emotional regression. With this sensitive awareness, they can help the gay man realize that his sexual orientation is not the result of a problematic integration of his feminine side or a mis-projection of his masculine side. Rather, it is a normal variation of the complex relationship of his masculine, feminine, and androgynous aspects at work in his psyche and a response to a myriad of biological and cultural influences. With this view, the gay man can be on his way to his individuation with a more wholly functioning persona.

REFERENCES

Blazina, C. (1997). Fear of the feminine in the Western psyche and the masculine task of disidentification: Their effect on the development of masculine gender role conflict. The Journal of Men's Studies, 6, 55-68.

Bly, R. (1990). Iron John. New York: Addison-Wesley.

Doty, W. G. (1995). Everything you never wanted to know about the dark, lunar side of the trickster. A Journal of Archetype and Culture, 57, 17-35.

Downing, C. (1989). Myths and mysteries of same-sex love. New York: Continuum.

Harper, P. B. (1992). Racism and homophobia as reflections on their perpetrators. In W. J. Blumenfeld (Ed.), Homophobia: How we all pay the price (pp. 57-66). Boston: Beacon Press.

Hopcke, R. H. (1989). Jung, Jungians, & homosexuality. Boston: Shambhala.

Hunter, N. D., Michaelson, S. E., & Stoddard, T. B. (Eds.). (1992). The rights of lesbians and gay men. Carbondale, IL: Southern Illinois University Press.

Johnson, R. (1988). He! Understanding masculine psychology, based upon the legend of Parsifal and his search for the Holy Grail, and using Jungian psychological concepts. New York: Harper & Row.

Jung, C. G. (1969). Four archetypes (R. F. C. Hull, Trans.). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. (Original work published 1959)

McDonald, H. B., & Steinhorn, A. I. (1990). Homosexuality: A practical guide to counseling lesbians, gay men and their families. New York: Continuum.

Moore, R., & Gillette, D. (1990). King, warrior, magician, lover: Rediscovering the archetypes of the mature masculine. San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco.

Pleck, J. H. (1981). The myth of masculinity. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.

Simonsen, G., Blazina, C., & Watkins, C. E. (2000). Gender role conflict and psychological well-being among gay men. Journal of Counseling Psychology, 47, 85-89.

Ulanov, A., & Ulanov, B. (1987). The witch and the clown: Two archetypes of human sexuality. Wilmette, IL: Chiron Publications.

Ulanov, A., & Ulanov, B. (1994). Transforming sexuality. Boston: Shambhala Publications.

Correspondence concerning this article should be sent to Michael G. DeVoll, Episcopal High School, 4650 Bissonnet, Bellaire, Texas 77401. Electronic mail may be sent to mdevoll@ehshouston.org.

Michael G. DeVoll and Christopher Blazina University of Houston

[Danielle La Belle]

I realize that the material previously provided may be contrary to your own position, but it does demonstrate how a concept or theory can be taken and applied to other positions.

"Helen Boyd,"in her book, "My Husband Betty," did a good job of making the point that CD's alone will not move the general public if we claim our safety net by returning to "male" mode when things get uncomfortable.

I for one use this method routinely to address my day-to-day living needs. Frankly speaking, Iam not planning to make any major changes in my body chemistry at this time. That, it seems, is an option for the younger generation, and even then, requires constant medical monitoring to insure that the desired results are obtained.



Hugs

Danielle

[Kersten Lee]

Danielle,

Believe it or not I read it all! I found it to be very interesting.

Thanks,
Kersten

[Virginia]

Danielle,
I read your post, I don't know if I understood it completely or that I was suppose to. It does however give me a little different outlook on what is "gay." I guess to me, if I think about it it is like the evolution of man kind. At some point we separated from the "apes." They went one way and we homo sapian took another road. (Some would question who came out best at this point). Anyway, is it not so that some males could repress homosexual tendencies just as "we" supress our CD'ing tendencies? The difference appears to be that the homosexual tendencies appear to be much stronger than the Anima we deal with. How either imparts itself on the given individual is based on that individuals background, environment and evidently a multitude of other factors.
Well it has certainly given this poor dumb blonde a bit of a headache, but it is worth it, to hopefully have an even better grasp of who, what, when and where and why?
Thanks Danielle for all you do,
Love Ya,
Deborah

[Danielle La Belle]

Just let me propose this idea. A person born with a mindset as in the majority, can no more change the way that they automatically are attracted to the opposite gender, than can one that is born with an attraction to their own gender. It is not something that you can just turn on or off at will. As a hetrosexual, can you really turn off your personal attraction to the gender that you feel most attracted too?

Most likely not. If a person is bi-sexual, they seem to be choosing their position but I am willing to bet that the attraction part is not a choice as the motivation to do something about it is. So, to do or not to do, that is by choice. We all have been there with a loved one. The physical must be understood to be a choice, the mental, well, that's another matter as highlighted above.

People would have us believe that we are all in charge of our mental processes. The laws in this Country are based on that premise. We are responsible for our behavior and the physical actions that we take can be punished under the law.

As I sit here, I am receiving a signal from my brain that it is time to allow evacuation of my bowel. If I sit long enough and consentrate on something else, the signal will stop until another time. Both the activation and the stopping of the signal are involuntary. The decision to avoid the signal is voluntary and I am responsible for the consequences. That is, no one else is going to "feel" the effect of a dehydrated bowel movement but me. Yes, I can communicate my "pain" vocally and anyone in hearing distance will not have to guess what my language is about.

So, if there is an answer on this, it is that you can choose to dress or not dress. The physical action. But, the mental drive that is sending a signal to you that this is what you should do, that is another matter entirely. Some people do not receive this signal until much latter in life. Some, as early as 5 years of age. The component that stimulates this signal is what is vastly still in question.

MTF CD's that wait 50 years until after a spouse dies for an example. Did they receive the signal but just ignore it? Did the signal arrive after the death of the spouse and might be considered a "knee-jerk" reaction to the death of the spouse? I am curious on this subject as well. It is difficult to collect reliable data that can be both verified and then compared to other parameters that might point too or vindicate us as a community.

I am sure there are other opinions on this subject that we need to hear and consider. The answers lie somewhere inside a 3lb package of gray matter suspended in a salt-water solution called the human brain. This is one "black hole" that we can investigate without leaving dry land.


Hugs

Danielle

[Virginia]

Danielle, Isn't our brain a wonderful organ?! We don't know why some of us supress CD'ing (whether or not we even know we are supressing it) until one day we have to deal with it. Some of us at an early age and others at an older age. And as I have said some of us supress it all the way to the grave. Once it is "open to duscussion" within ourselves it becomes even more interesting in how each person deals with it and that evidently is realtive to their environment, social morays, background, etc.
Those of us who chose to deal with it openly have a multitude of obstacles to deal with from outside influences, society, spouses, family, friends, ect, as well as the internal struggle of attempting to understand what is going on with us. I have noticed that given the small universe of this forum, that those of us who choose to deal with it and tackle the obstacles in our way are of - how do I say this- higher than average intelligence!!! This presents itself in the "tone" and "wit" and "undestanding" put forth by our sisters here! I, for one. chose to continue to study this new and exciting part of my life and as the bible say in Proverbs: "Wisdom is the principle thing - therefore, get wisdom! BUT with all thy getting - GET UNDERSTANDING! Again and again, Thanks for being there.
Love,
Deborah

[Danielle La Belle]

I am hesitant to quote from the "Bible." Everyone has a different biblical book these days. So many different versions with the text modified for better understanding one almost needs to refer to the original scrolls to get accurate details. Too many people have found that great book a source of negative input when it comes to T* girls. Written at a time when people were trying to get others to convert to this new faith, sections were written to support the times and the politcal interests of those that became believers early on.

The comparison that I am making reflects how people can take a situation or concept/theory and digress to the point of leaving the reader in question of the accuracy of the reported information. We have seen how people can take the work by "Jung" and manipulate it to their needs.

So, keeping with my practice of a "doubting Thomas", I believe less than half of what I read. Not that I am not a "believer," I just decided to become more of an independent thinker. Rather than just adapting what someone else wrote, I try to evaluate the times and impressions that the writer was going through when putting pen to paper.

"First grade" is history. I am now what you might call, a "social investigator."

Hugs

Danielle

[Danielle La Belle]

A rash of references to Dr. Carl Jung and his study which was predominately completed by his wife, the "Anima Theory" has been perhaps personified to support issues that Dr. Jung frankly made no reference to or scientific study there of. Namely, TG related issues.

Not to say that our Community has taken something out of context, but perhaps we have taken advantage of work that never really was meant or designed to support our personal preferences.

To say that with [man] rests a [female] personality or repressed [female] feelings cannot be adequately compared. However, we have in a rather ambitious manner, latched onto this research and made it our own living, breathing reasoning for our somewhat different personality performance.

When compared to the majority of male and female personalities, there seems to be a wall that keeps them separate. A wall that is breached in the TG community. Neurons that may have gone outside the rules of social development. A virus in a computer program for example. While still a program, a computer virus is nothing more than a program designed to create a negative result in some form.

Because we do "good works" does not necessarily mean that we are still not being effected by some form of rogue biological process that other wise, does no real harm specifically to it's host. Of course harm must be defined. If you are staying home everyday and dressing up and doing things contrary to making a living, this could and should be considered harmful to the host if you are being deprived of a means to support yourself.

I for one, ask myself what I am gaining and losing during those times. I try to make my "fem" time "practical" I guess. While still maintaining a sense of self and personal understanding of this "drive" that sends me to my secret closet (not a secret any more). What has this done for me or to me? Can I weigh the gains and losses? I once again question myself whole heartedly even with all the good I might have done others as Danielle Marie La Belle. Socrates; "The unexamined life is not worth living."


Hugs

Danielle Marie

[Virginia]

Danielle,
Your pictures look wonderful, the "light thearpy" seems to have really made a difference.
I guess my main reaon for responding however is your reference to Jung and his Anima Theory and that it seems to come up in some of the threads here. Having read a lot of the threads, it appears that I am the guilty party for directing folks to the site. Perhaps I should not do this. I am not nearly as educated as you and my hopefully benign reason for this is that I was directed to the site when I first began to study why "Virginia" was making herself know through me." As you quoted, "the unexamined life is not worth living." So in "examining my "new" life partner, ie. Virginia, I found the site most helpful. It appears that I have now twice been called to task for referencing this "Anima Theory" concept. Once, by Azza, I believe, stated that it was an "incomplete concept full of holes." I agree, BUT....It is my feeling that as the great chinese philosopher said, "A journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step." As a naval Aviator, it was interesting to note that the Navy chose not to strap us into (current line-up) FA-18 Hornet as our first plane, but rather a slow but true T-34.
My point being that if someone is searching for a beginning point some place that they can get some understaning of the whys and wherefores of their situation and my knowing that the Jung Anima Theory helped me get started I thought it might be helpful to some of my newer sisters coming down the path and seeking insight. Yes, I know it is not the be all end all, but it is a good starting point for further research. However if you feel it is not a worthy beginning point, I will trust your judgement as I know you have left my head spinning for days after reading some of your most insightful posts.
As I have said before, God Bless, and thanks for being there for us.
Love,
Virginia

[Danielle La Belle]

You of course have made me think Virginia. Yes, I do believe that it is a good starting point. Truly, my observation of this material was only that Dr. Jung did not specifically study the TG community or any specific part there of.

I want my community to have a solid foundation on what does and does not support our chosen roles. I too have used this document and while not the first I am sure, introduced it to others on this forum as a reference. For that matter, I recently provided this to my brother, a holder of Master's degrees in English and AI Computer Science. I thought that Dr. Jung might carry more weight than just my recent "outing" to my brother.

So I too am guilty I suppose of employing this "work" as well, to perhaps my advantage and certainly for my gain with my brother. I like to think that I am willing to accept my responsibility for my behavior even if we later find that it is "neuron" driven, ha ha LOL, (all in my head).

You have shown the true spirit of the TG community both in your word and deed on this forum. For that, I am very thankful that you contribute your time and energy in helping others get off to a good start.

I want everyone to know that for me it is not about being right. It is about caring enough to share a concept or thought or theory and be willing to change as new, measurable evidence is presented, for or against our community-at-large.

If in conversation, we set aside being right and just explain our position on a subject, we gain the trust of others that we are open minded enough to see and at times, accept the view point of another.

Hugs

Danielle Marie

[Rachel Ann]

Well, I found my way to Rachel, and then to CDing, and finally to self-awareness as a TG person, through reading both Jungs and looking for my anima, usually in trance. So, just from my own personal experience, the theory was positive and helpful.

TG issues, sexual preference as understood today, and gender as different than sex were unknown in Jung's time, so we could hardly expect him to have addressed these issues.

Here's another, more lightweight link on the subject http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage ... /anima.htm

They still say that the largest sex organ in the body is the brain.

[Danielle La Belle]

During my College studies of "Biology and Human Behavior," I met with a rude awakening. That for the most part, we all are running on an advanced "program" that while it is copied from human to human, variations in the program copy occur that we often refer to as "personality" variations.

For some, these variations are so severe as to cause outward effects such as we see in those unfortunate souls that roam the highways, byways, public parks, and alleyways of America. With only a few neurons out of cue, these individuals exhibit what we classify as various psychological conditions for which we attempt to correct with a host of pharmaceutical compounds.

We attempt to "right" their internal ships compass to bring them around to a more common focus that the majority considers in the "norm." Some with this form of help come around, while others, are forever lost in the mental shadows of the complex thinking process.

Perhaps, to a lesser extent, we exhibit traits as well that are a neuron or two askew, and someday, these too may be addressed as a correctable condition unlike in the past where we were considered hopelessly incurable. This would provide each of us an option that currently does not exist in the realm of brain dysfunction.

Dr. Jung was willing to subscribe to the concept that [male] and [female] gender information can be housed in one individual. One last point I wish for others to ponder is; clearly, there are far more m-t-f than f-t-m participants in our community. Not becuase they are hiding, but because they in all probability do not exist.

Statistically, this is an issue that has been addresed on a very small scale by the likes of Monroe, Blanchard, Hirschfield and others. I for one am not afraid to ask why? Why so many m-t-f cases in comparison to f-t-m. Don't [women] want to be [men]. Power, influence, money, jobs, hmm, it seems that this is not so important to the [gg] group.

Hugs

Danielle Marie

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Danielle

I too have pondered this issue. I have met women who want to be like men, many of them in fact.

We may well reach a point where we find our selves facing a wake up call, that may be too late.

When you have a group of women together that are in a position of power, I have observed that they will get what they want. Although they might not like what that turns out to be.

Also it is far easier for a woman to be in the closet with her feelings, being as she can wear what she likes.

I don't think there is any shortage of lesbians, in respect to Gays. And even for them it is easier to fit in than it is for men who are like minded. Why should that be any different for cross-dressers?

I think in some cases the forest just might be to thick to be able to get an accurate picture..

[Danielle La Belle]

I must admit, women (gg) can act and dress today as they wish with more flexibility than ever before. There too it follows that they can "hide" their disposition on f-t-m traits. My spouse, the oldest of 7 children, had 5 brothers after her, then her sister, the last of the 7 children. She therefore was exposed to and influenced more by the brothers than the sister. She often takes on a demeanor that is rather masculine by definition. She seems to enjoy action movies the most. Ones that depict fighting and carnage to a point that exceeds any interest on my part.

While this may not be a "sign post," it certainly has always caught my attention as I am perhaps the more sensitive and considerate one with stronger attachments to others, while she is rather aloof and isolates herself from social events, family or otherwise. At the same time, she will quickly offer to take care of the grandchildren as any [mother hen] might do. So there is a mixture in her as there is in me.

Perhaps this has something to do with our long term (34 years) marriage and relationship.

Hugs

Danielle Marie

[Rachel Ann]

Let us not neglect cultural factors. In Hong Kong, SRSs are about half FtM, half MtF. This seems to reflect the fact that in China, the status and value of women is very low, especially compared to the USA.

Outside the TG ranks, I have heard far more women say that they wish they were men than the other way around - although this may be due to inhibition on the part the men. Among "normal" folks, such a wish would be viewed as a pathology on the part of a man, but not necessarily on the part of a woman.

Darlene, regarding your point about lesbians and gays - bisexuality seems to be becoming more and more socially acceptable in women, but not in men. Maybe this is partly just a fad.

Anyway, we all know that women get the short end of the stick in most things in life, and we MtF souls are getting the good parts without the bad - at least of us who stop short of SRS.