Different motives

[Gillian]

Judith(SO) wrote some of this on another thread. I did not want to hijack the thread, so it was easier to start a new one.

Quote; “speaking for myself, if and when I wear a shirt, pants of whatever fashion, shoes and socks, I never have any thought that I'm wearing those clothes to alter my gender appearance, and I always wear feminine underwear, I've never worn male underwear, and there is never the intent or thought to try and appear male, and I think that would go for the majority of heterosexual women who wear similar clothing. Those shirts, pants, socks and shoes I wear at times were all made for females, I think that is the difference when it comes to a man wearing clothing made for women. For me, it's simply clothing which most all women wear these days, and it's readily acceptable to do so, it's fashion befitting our times, whereas it's a rarity to see a man in public dressed in women's clothes and accessories, wearing make-up etc, those times haven't arrived yet where it is the norm, but hopefully the time will come where those who choose to do so will be able to without fear of embarrassment or reprisal, but I believe that time is very distant.”

I see this point of view and it is a fact that women have gained freedom from the days of their grandmothers. I am one of those who wishes to wear woman’s clothes, but not attempt to pass. In the first sentence the comments was “I wear a shirt, pants of whatever fashion, shoes and socks, I never have any thought that I'm wearing those clothes to alter my gender appearance”. I want to wear a blouse/shirt, skirt of whatever fashion, heels/shoes, and hose and not give a thought to altering my gender appearance, but that’s not in my freedom arena. Does it really matter what an individual’s underwear choices are? The problem is that society has not at this time deemed it appropriate for a man to wear women’s clothes...again, at this time.

Quote; “Some time back when I brought up the topic about lingerie made for men, the collective responses were that even though that lingerie be made of silky lace materials, and of feminine appearance, all said they wouldn't wear it if it was made especially for men, it had to be originally made for women. I think that is the difference, it's the intent, the man is trying to create a female appearance, a feminine aura etc”.
I hear you loud and clear. Yes, for many of us the mystic of feminine lingerie is like that forbidden fruit that allows us to escape to something, or anything else. I have tried that lingerie made for men, and to be honest it was expensive, ill-fitting, and of questionable quality. I looked for a long time before I found underwear that suited my tastes, and yes it was found in women’s wear. Maybe the attempt to create a feminine aura has a lot to do with having to put up with male macho garbage all day long, and the only respite is to fade into a different world for awhile.

Quote; “I suggested to him is that maybe it would be of some comfort to him if he, as you folk put it, underdressed, but he didn't seem to jump at that idea, he says that there are times when he just has to discard all male clothing completely and dress in women's clothes”.

I thought the same thing, if I just underdressed then everything would be ok. I do underdress all of the time, but there are times when I want more. If I go and put a skirt on, for some reason it makes a difference. It really helps to have an understanding wife.

Why do some guys want to dress the whole nine yards, and go out, I’m not one of them, so I don’t know. Some dress up in Star Trek uniforms and go to Trekkie conventions, is that an escape from the day to day hassles of life? All I know is that if wearing certain clothes gives me the chance to escape the hassles of the world for awhile, then why not. But again, I don’t go out, I don’t attempt to pass, I just get comfortable and relax. It really is too bad that some of us don’t have the freedom that we want. But the problem is that with freedom, comes responsibility, and some will abuse the freedom given them. If we all had the same motives, then it would be easier to understand why a CD’er does what he does, but there are some many different motives. One only has to look at other CD internet sites to see it.

[Kelly]

Gillian,

This is an interesting post. I read it last night and thought about it all day. Lots of introspection, lots of conclusions. You've helped me put a few things into perspective. Thanks. Here are my thoughts.

You call it motive, but what I am reading is more about focus. The motive is simple - the wiring in our brain, or whatever that allows us to want to express gender identity different from the physical one we were born with.

How that want is expressed is what makes us all unique. That is how the rest of our psychological traits allow us to focus the desire. For some it (focus) is to live as a woman 24/7 or to transition, for others it manifests as a fetish, and for others it is some form of part time exploration. The motivation is what manifests the focus. And if the focus doesn't cause some dissonance we are relieved, happy.

I can only relate to the part time gender explorers. I'll concentrate on that perspective (gospel according to Kelly ).

For lots of folk underdressing is just fine, others need a skirt and heels or add some makeup every so often - perhaps daily. Your focus works for you, and your luck to be in a situation where you can safely and comfortably express it. I'm happy for you.

In contrast, I'm a part timer as well. I've tried underdressing, but it doesn't do anything for me. It is contrary to my focus. A skirt and pantyhose with out wig, makeup, and forms is an exercise in silliness - again contrary to my focus. Only getting fully decked out and going out an interacting with the world seems to work for me.

You touch on a couple of other points. One is the women can take what is traditionally men's apparel and adapt them to be their own. This has been the case for most of the 20th century and is going strong currently. It is just the presence of innovative designers in the domain of women's fashion. When a hit fad has intrinsic versatility, comfort, and utility it becomes a fixture. That's all. If the innovation happens to spill into the arena of men's styles, so what.

No innovations in men's fashion? There probably have been, but they have probably been starved into a different line of work because their customer base is unwilling to take a risk.

Then there is the biggie. Males wearing female attire is a societal no-no. Even a taboo. I've railed about that apparent unfairness, myself, on these pages. I'm in a calmer and more thoughtful state of mind today. The reality is that life is unfair, despite what we want. Intolerance just doesn't go away - it has to die away. I doubt it will happen in our lifetimes. Maybe it will be better for our grand daughters.

[Eileen (SO)]

Well, this has added much to the little I know so far. Thank you both for a different perspective. Gillian, are you saying that even though you enjoy female attire for the look and feel, you identify as a male? What about public washrooms?
Women do have the freedom to wear male style clothing, tailored for women, but are not attempting to change their gender appearance. Would such as yourself be satisfied with a silky blouse made for a man's shoulders and arm length, no darts in front? Or a skirt/dress fit for the male's smaller hips and longer torso?

My husband is one that does not underdress. I have got used to him having the urge to dress all the way, except make up, to 'just feel right', around the home. Those times, he tries to identify as female, as in different walk and mannerisms. I can play along and have fun doing so, unless my day has gone badly, then I'm not in the mood to play dress up. And hugging just doesn't feel right, between the two of us, too much boobage. Some of his CD friends have told me that they like wearing women's jeans as males because of the tighter fit. But they do admit that form fitting jeans can be a sneaky way of out dressing while male.

There are societies around the world where men wear skirt or dress like clothing. Certain castes in India, Tibetan Monks, Scottish kilts. All are seen as male attire. It seems that for a CD, even part timers, those choices do not satisfy.

Eileen

[Gillian]

Eileen(SO), to answer your questions, the first being, yes I do identify as male all of the time. I do have traits in my personality that are not really male or female necessarily. If any of these on line tests are to be believed, I fit into a 60/40 split of male/female. I never go out fully dressed, so public washrooms are not an issue. I do underdress all of the time, but not necessarily a bra. Would I be satisified with a silk blouse tailored to my shape and size, yes I probably would.

To answer the comment about tight fitting clothes, it is very common for CD'ers to like tight fitting apparel. There is something about wearing a snug pair of hosiery on freshly shaved legs that is something I could not fully discribe to anyone, even myself. I love nylon/spandex leggings for that very reason. Then there are body shapers, it all has to do with that tight wrapped feeling. This is probably one of the reasons for wearing a bra, a tight snug feeling, in my case the bonus is that I do fill a 38A.

To sum it all up, if I could go out of the home without repercussion, this is how I would dress. I would be wearing, a nylon cami, nylon/lyrca panties, pantyhose/stockings, shirt, skirt, and comfortable shoes. Yes I would look like a guy, because I am one. For the most part I love the feel of nylon on my skin and having a touch of lace is a nice accent.

For a final quote, "Women do have the freedom to wear male style clothing, tailored for women, but are not attempting to change their gender appearance." Basically I want to have the freedom to wear female style clothing without changing my gender appearance!

[Rhanda]

Yes Gillian, (I love that name, One of the loveliest ladies I know has that name. She happens to be my grand daughter.)

I aggree and stated your sentiments in annother thread. I just think that if I am wearing a dress that shows off my beautiful legs I should dress to the completeness that I can with attractive hair and makeup. Especially since I wear makeup almost all the time anyway. Some of my friends ask me if I am feeling poorly when I'm not madeup.

You should feel free to have the look that you are comfortable with.

Rhanda

[Dianna]

Thank you both Gillian & Kelly for such thoughtful discussion. I guess I am a underdresser because I consider myself a heterosexual male with a loving wife who tolerates my under dressing within reason. (I may need to start a thread on the subject of various levels of husband cd support by the wife or SO).

I dress at home. But in public I under dress with pantyhose, ladies jeans/slacks, blouse, bra and a lipstick that is the same shade as my normal lip color. I wear neutral jewelry but with a lady watch & bracelet. This is the most my wife will allow. So I must work from a fare balance between spousal harmony and my selfish desires to be a cd. Would I ever completely cd in public with makeup, wig, etc. I don't know but I doubt it. The social stigma, family pressures & taboos plus other considerations would likely prevent me from doing so. I do envy those sisters on this forum that can do so.

I'm not henpecked but after living with the same wife for 57 years I know my limits!

P.S. I married very young and although I may be the oldest on this forum I feel young at heart!

[Judith(SO)]

I read elsewhere on this forum of a belief that crossdressing and masturbation are closely linked. I am wondering if it's a possibility that this is filling in for something which is lacking in the wife. My husband says not, but then it's a possibility he doesn't want to hurt my feelings, I just don't know.

I've held the belief from the outset that there's a sexual component attached to a man dressing in women's clothes, and that in itself is not anything bad, we all need a release at times, and if no harm is done to anyone, then it can be a good thing, in it's own way.

I am also wondering if you dress in clothes of a particular style endeavouring to create the image of the woman which is most desirous to you.

Judith.(so)

[Dianna]

Judith & all,
There's a lot of thought provoking issues for discussion on this thread. Thanks to all. Judith, I believe your husband is correct...at least in my case I have to agree with him. My wife is a great partner and will do, has done just about everything I have ever ask. When I dress the feeling is not sexual. The feeling is different, at least for me. The feeling is very satisfying and titillating at the same time. It seems to relax me and excite me but makes me feel where I should be, at least in the moment! If that makes any sense?

The clothes I dress in are really dictated by what my wife allows (in public anyway). At home I wear anything I want to wear. I don't believe I would ever wear clothes that represent a woman I feel is most desirous to me. My dress selection is based upon what makes me feel most like a woman...dress that makes me feel wonderful. Does that make any sense?

Thanks to all for sharing thoughts. A better understanding of oneself is good!

[Gillian]

I think that it is safe to say that no two CD'ers are alike. How things got started, how things developed over the years all effect the out come of where each CD'er is at within this present time. For some, it is all about sex and release, other it is totally different.

Judith(SO) comments; "I read elsewhere on this forum of a belief that crossdressing and masturbation are closely linked. I am wondering if it's a possibility that this is filling in for something which is lacking in the wife. My husband says not, but then it's a possibility he doesn't want to hurt my feelings, I just don't know."

The only one who would know, would be your husband. In this you can only take his word for it. My first thought is does he have a higher sex drive than you, which is not anyones fault. I personally have met guys that live by this expression, "once a king, always a king, but once a night is enough". If a woman has a once a week is enough drive, the guy usually fills the void with...well you get the picture. If he is a CD'er then the apparel goes with the territory. He still has his obligation to fulfill his wifes needs within the marriage, and it is possible that self fun can hinder this obligation fulfillment.

It is possible that CD'ers dress to such a way as to express how they think that a woman should look. Remember they are attempting a emulate their ideal thoughts of a woman. There is no one size fits all when it comes to people, marketing attempts to do this for there benefit. The best example I could give is, some like blonds, some redheads, some brunettes, some tall, some short, and the list goes on. If you were to have a party, would you supply beer only, or wine, beer and hard liquor, for your guests. I speculate that a good host would supply a variety of beverages for their guests. We all have our own tastes, and for upwards of about 5% of the male population they like CD'ing for whatever reason. With the resent influx of bondage erotica, Shades of Grey, in the bookstores, it has been said that in upwards of 10% of women are, or would be into mild forms of this activity. Well so what, spank me for being so bad. Humor intended!

[Jane D]

I read elsewhere on this forum of a belief that crossdressing and masturbation are closely linked. I am wondering if it's a possibility that this is filling in for something which is lacking in the wife. My husband says not, but then it's a possibility he doesn't want to hurt my feelings, I just don't know.

I've held the belief from the outset that there's a sexual component attached to a man dressing in women's clothes, and that in itself is not anything bad, we all need a release at times, and if no harm is done to anyone, then it can be a good thing, in it's own way.

I am also wondering if you dress in clothes of a particular style endeavouring to create the image of the woman which is most desirous to you.

Judith.(so)

I think for many (most/all?), CDing began as a substitute arousal method since in our world boys do not have access to willing and instructive females. Even mature people who have had normal hetro relations can be pulled in if they feel a spark when CDing. Once an arousal mechanism becomes established and the brain chemistry reinforces, it becomes 'imprinted', CDing becomes a preferred or exclusive means of arousal.

Personally, I believe it does not mean there is a shortcoming in the partner or wife. Perhaps it means the CDer has developed an overly powerful arousal method that probably can't be unlearned.

[Jane D]

Duplicate post deleted

[Gillian]

Jane D says; "I think for many (most/all?), CDing began as a substitute arousal method since in our world boys do not have access to willing and instructive females."

I have read that the average 14-16 year old male has a sexual thought every 90 seconds. That stat doesn't surprise me in the least. So if we have a young male who has these recurring sexual thoughts and his first ejaculation experience was while he was wearing womens clothing, it makes sense that most of his sexual thoughts would revolve around said clothing. Now if a boy was awake 14 hours a day at one thought per 90 seconds he would have 560 sexual thoughts in a day. To keep it simple, if he had 500 thoughts per day he would have an average of 16800 of these thoughts per month. Then it would be 201600 of these thoughts per year. Now if someone would think that to be extreme we will cut that number in half. At 100800 of these thoughts, if half of them were about some item of woman's apparel, then that is still 50400 times in a year. If you couple that to his "play time", that is some really heavy duty imprinting on the brain. And people said that Pavlov was wasting his time ringing that bell. I don't think so. So is it brain chemistry, or conditioned responce?

This whole point may be moot, all I know is that the longer a behavior gets entrenched, the more difficult it is to get it out of the brain! As my mother used to say, "Rome wasn't built in a day", so it makes sense that breaking away from the CDing habit would be very difficult, because it gets so well entrenched. Now when you add the pleasureable aspects of it all, then you are essentially multiplying the entrenchment. The best way to stop, would have been never to have started. Well too late on that one, so I am saying accept it and just get on with life.

PS: If anyone knows of a simple way to stop doing any behavior...then write a book...you will make a fortune selling it!

[Eileen (SO)]

Some time ago, and many sessions of deep conversations, my husband's desires to dress are to feel female, if only for awhile. Early age, well before puberty, he enjoyed playing with dolls or house with other little girls. Dressing like a girl felt 'normal'. Most of the time, he wanted to be a boy, did boy things. The girl feelings were a sometime thing.
During puberty, he says, 'everything is sexual!'. Dressing was a way add to the self pleasure session. All grown up now, as far as any man can be, dressing is sensual, not sexual, as in not arousing. With a brain part female, this makes sense. What woman doesn't feel more sexy wearing a nice fitting outfit?
In coming to understand his motives, acceptance became easier for me. If guys can be manly and bond with each other, burping and scratching, why shouldn't the urge to feel pretty once in awhile be so foreign?
The other GG's should admit that a large part that makes going out for dinner so fun is the opportunity to get dressed up pretty.
I'm still a little uncomfortable seeing him partially dressed, the fake forms, padded fanny, and bald head. But no matter how he's dressed, we enjoy fashion catalogs together. We're not quite the same size, some things we can swap though. That's my incentive to lose a few pounds, he has some cute outfits!

Eileen

[Gillian]

A CD'er who has an accepting SO is truely blessed. Not because he can do whatever he wants, but because she understands where he is coming from.

Eileen(SO) quote; "During puberty, he says, 'everything is sexual!'. Dressing was a way add to the self pleasure session. All grown up now, as far as any man can be, dressing is sensual, not sexual, as in not arousing. With a brain part female, this makes sense. What woman doesn't feel more sexy wearing a nice fitting outfit?"

I couldn't have put it any better myself. Through the early CDing experiences our ideas of feeling sexy become based on female attire, hence the sensual desires become feminine centered.

Eileen(SO) quote; "In coming to understand his motives, acceptance became easier for me. If guys can be manly and bond with each other, burping and scratching, why shouldn't the urge to feel pretty once in awhile be so foreign?"

Most CD'ers do a lot of typically male things. Using myself as an example, I spent all American thanksgiving with 10 other guys watching the NFL all day. There many Canadians who enjoy the NFL and this was our opportunity to have a guy day and not impact our usual family times. It is good when motives become understood, things make more sense and behaviors don't seem weird anymore.

[Jane D]

Eileen, regardless if it causes just a feeling of well being or a sexual response, the brain is interpreting stimuli and generating a pleasurable reaction. That is why your pre-puberty husband became a fan of feminine attire and behaviors, wasn't born with a female brain. People are born genderless and the brain is then 'programmed' by stimuli in our experiences.

My opinion is once the 'wiring' is completed, it does much more harm that good to try to fix or circumvent.