Lack Of Ambition

[MiMi (SO)]

Just wondering...

My DH lacks the desire to "get ahead" on the job. Is this an outcome of hiding CDing for so many years or just an individual thing? He has held a variety of positions and is always well received by both his piers and superiors. He shies away and has outright refused promotions. When we were expecting our daughter, 21 years ago, we moved to a new city & Charlie didn't look for a job for many months.

I guess because I recently discovered Charlie's CDing, I'm analyzing in hindsight. Who said it's always 20-20? He is a wonderful human being, I am not criticizing, only trying to understand things I have noticed over our 20+ year marriage. Charlie is very intelligent and a free thinker (a trait we share). I have always worked, usually very long hours and held "headache" middle management type positions. Charlie has definitely been the "Wind Beneath My Wings". Charlie kept our home clean, kids well cared for and just made life go along smoothly, while both of us worked full time & I completed my degree. I could never have realized my dream of completing college if it weren't for his support.

Rereading this I can see someone might think - what's she complaining about? I realize Charlie would have been a wonderful "househusband", and in hindsight wished we had discussed that. The problem now is the kids are out of the house, we started a business that was hurt very badly a couple of years ago. Charlie took a customer service position then while I limp along with the business. Yes, again he has refused promotion offers.

I have found myself angry at Charlie because of this lack of ambition. I've thought - which would I rather have: an overachieving, 70 hour a work week part-time husband or the a wonderful man who always seems to understand and is ever-present with a helping hand and sense of humor. Most of the time I've made peace with this situation but when finances get tight I feel myself getting angry.

Here we are just past 50, a daughter in college and I doubt we'll ever be in a position to actually retire. The kicker is Charlie is a very frustrated with his job but doesn't take any action to relieve this frustration. He is able to put on a happy face through the most trying times. I suppose that ability came into play in hiding his CDing all those years. Enough rambling, I'm just wondering if this apparent lack of ambition is an outcome of hiding CDing for so many years. Your thoughts are appreciate.

Best To All...MiMi

[Beauty]

Hi Mimi,

You can't use the word (a n a l) anymore so that's why your word a-nalyzed got turned into CENSORED.

Anyway, your angst is quite understandable and I'm really sorry it's happening at all.

What does your husband say when you tell him he lacks ambition?

It's good that you were able to air this out. It must have been hard to completely live without saying that.

Feel free to express yourself anytime here!

Beauty

[Celia]

Mimi,

Has your husband generally given reasons why he has declined offers of promotions? If so, is there a pattern to his answers?

Yours,
Celia

[MiMi (SO)]

Hi Celia & Beauty,

Most of the time I find out about these offers by "accident", there is no real discussion. The few times I've asked why, Charlie says the hours would be awful, or there's no immediate pay increase, basically there is little benefit to accepting.

Here's my hindsight theory. If he were to apply himself, he'd move up the ladder rather rapidly - now where would that bring him? With the suits, in the company of very few women.

I've noticed since the beginning he was always more comfortable in the company of women. I never could figure that out. I have no reason to believe he was ever unfaithful, in light of the CDing revelation I'm just wondering if being in the company of women is his motivation.

Or maybe my brain is just fried. All thoughts welcomed...MiMi

[CJ]

Hi all,

Mimi,

First, I want to welcome you to the forum. I was going to say that I hope to hear more from you, but I see you've already posted here and there. Excellent! It's always good to have more GGs come on board.

As to your question, I've noticed this in myself also. I've never really flat-out refused a promotion but, for some reason, I've always been reticent in accepting offers of advancement. At first, I chalked this up to a simple lack of self-esteem but, lately (say, oh, over the past ten years or so), I've begun to think something deeper and more complex is going on. My best guess is that my ingrained desire--actually, it's almost a need--to hide my true self from others, to blend in seamlessly, was taking over. My crossdressing was, for the longest time, a source of such guilt and shame that I spared no expense and wasted no amount of energy in covering it up. That led me to seek out and prefer social and professional situations where I was reasonably sure I'd never be the center of attention. Attention brings responsibility and responsibility brings further attention. To this day, I still have to fight this tendency in myself. I tell people that I'm basically a loner or that I'm basically shy, but I rather suspect the truth is that I tend to avoid putting myself in a position where both my character as well as my private life may come under increased scrutiny. My family and friends (as well as my colleagues, obviously) interpret this as a lack of ambition on my part. They're wrong, of course. But there's just no way I can explain to them why I think they're wrong without bringing up the reasons I've laid out in this paragraph.

My own overarching ambition is this: to learn to be the best person I can be, with the time given me here, in this fragile thing called life. For me, that means concentrating on who I am rather than on what I do for a living. But that's just me. It may certainly not be Charlie's case.

Still, I don't think you should look at the situation in terms of polar opposites (an overachieving, 70 hour a work week part-time husband or a wonderful man who always seems to understand and is ever-present with a helping hand and sense of humor); there must be a middle somewhere where both of you may feel comfortable expressing who you are. Working together to find that balance may help you ease some of your anger and may help Charlie put the financial or monetary requirements of daily life into their proper perspective. After all, crossdresser or not, and CDSO or not, we do need to put food on the table... and have a little left over for that sublime pair of heels we saw at the mall last week.

Love,
CJ

[Loretta Ann]

Hi you all.

MiMi was first introducded to this forum in a post entitled
A Wife On Another Forum Posts Her Feelings About Finding Out, that I posted with her permission, before she joined this forum.


Hi Mimi.

I have followed your posts every time I have seen them, starting with the first time you introduced your self on the CDDF. The reason for that is you struck me as a very intelligent person, and one can learn from people like you.

Having said that what I am about to say I have wanted to say for some time now, but I was not sure that it was the right time. (still not completely sure) but here goes. I believe the reason Charlie will not communicate with you more than he dose is because there is something he fears.

That dose not necessarily mean that he is hiding yet another deep secret from you (and I sincerely hope that is not the case), But what I hope to draw your attention to is your enemy, "it is fear" and your relationship will not be able get beyond that, until that issue is dealt with.

I believe that: Every body continues in their state of rest, or of uniform motion in a straight line, unless they are compelled to change that state by forces impressed upon it.

I hope that this is helpful to you and that your relationship is able to get past this hurdle, and flourish.

[Virginia]

I guess what my sisters are saying is "communication." Based on your description of Charlie he must really be a great guy. The only thing that I hope is that neither his Cd'ing or that of being a CD'er would have an affect on his vocational determination. Some of us, for whatever reason, just don't feel we are "management material" and seek not to accept the responsibility. The other side of that is if we can take on the responsibility of marriage, and children and all the other challenges outside of our job we should be able to manage job promotions, but some just don't want the added responsibility. This is wher the communication comes in. Talk about it with Charlie and be supportive.
Lpve.
Deborah

[Beauty]

Hi Celia & Beauty,

Most of the time I find out about these offers by "accident", there is no real discussion. The few times I've asked why, Charlie says the hours would be awful, or there's no immediate pay increase, basically there is little benefit to accepting.

Here's my hindsight theory. If he were to apply himself, he'd move up the ladder rather rapidly - now where would that bring him? With the suits, in the company of very few women.

I've noticed since the beginning he was always more comfortable in the company of women. I never could figure that out. I have no reason to believe he was ever unfaithful, in light of the CDing revelation I'm just wondering if being in the company of women is his motivation.

Or maybe my brain is just fried. All thoughts welcomed...MiMi

Hi Mimi!

Thank you for answering.

Your brain isn't fried, but you are using enough brain power to fry some hair folicles.

I too am more comfy around women than men, but not in swarms. When women start really going in to gal mode, I get off the boat. Usually because they put me in a position where I have to. Somehow or another women inevitably start talking about men and that's when I dive out of the boat.

Anyways, back to your DH. I kind of wonder if he doesn't want to go up the ladder because of how much it would be an issue if he ever was found out.

I know I don't want to run for political office for one reason and one reason only. . . . .










Alexandra

JUST KIDDING!!!

I don't want to run because I know it would come out about my CD'ing. Though it wouldn't be that much to me in the end, it would destroy my family for no good reason. I feel that way about my career too. I don't want to go to high because of what it would mean.

Do you think your DH is taking it to another level? Thinking that maybe any promotion is one too many promotions?

Just something I thought about. Maybe it's my brain that is fried!?!?

As CJ said.. boy do I LOVE the SOs here.

Beauty

[LeftyRainbow(SO)]

Hi there MiMi!

I can relate to what you are saying about your spouse totally.

Sometimes it is from a fear of "if I don't try ,then I can't fail".

My spouse has found a "perfect" position for him and I'm really glad. It brings my partner confidence and it utilizes alot of his stronger skills.
As someone with adult ADD, keeping and finding employment is difficult for my SO and I'm just glad that he has found a comfortable and satisfying career opportunity.

Do you think that your spouse needs a change of occupation? Sometimes that can help out with enthusiasum.

Hope I helped some.

Lefty

P.S.- I'm glad you are up and posting

[MiMi (SO)]

Hello CJ,

Thank you very much for the warm welcome and for your frank and enlightening reply. I do believe something deeper and more complex is going on with Charlie also. Given his pensive personality I have to believe he has given this much thought. The trouble is he is not forthcoming with his feelings.

You've touched so many nerves I don't know where to begin. Charlie professes to be shy, his relatives even mentioned his shyness before they introduced us. I have never found Charlie to be shy. He is reserved, maybe guarded is a better word. As you so very well put it, he seeks out situations where he is reasonably sure he'd never be the center of attention. Charlie labeled himself as a loner, the activities he likes best are biking and reading. He can be a great team player if you can get him on your team.

Finding out about Charlie's CDing puts so much of this into perspective. Although lack of ambition it what this behavior appears to be, Charlie is actually very ambitious when he undertakes a task. I think my polar opposite simili was just out of frustration. For me I simply have to figure things out & it looks like the person who holds the key is also the person who just isn't talking. So through observation and insight gleaned from generous people like yourself, I'll have to reach a conclusion.

There is so much for an SO to comprehend. Guilt, shame - our darn society! From some of the reading I've done, I understand there were societies who highly revered men who demonstrated typically female traits. Societies recognized it was this diversity that helped them survive. How have we come so far backward on this score? Have we traded our instincts for Xs & Os?

I wish you all the happiness and love you obviously deserve & of course those gorgeous heels.

Warm Wishes...MiMi

Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

[CJ]

Hi all,

Mimi,

Thanks for your warm and thoughtful post.

By your description of your DH, I sort of imagined that there was a possibility that Charlie and I may be kindred souls. Even Beauty, in her own inimitable way, alluded to feeling this way also. I'm almost certain that we're not the only ones here to adopt such an attitude. The imperative to survive psychologically is universal, I think. The problem arises when that imperative leads to self-limiting behaviour or, even worse, self-destructive behaviour, the very opposite of the intended goals of self-preservation.

Yes, we can rant at society for its soul-destroying ways, but I've discovered that doing so merely stirs the poison within my veins. For good or ill, our culture is our womb. My attitude regarding this? Perfect it where possible, accept it where it's not. I will always consider myself a berdache nonetheless.

About Charlie, my suggestion is this, Mimi (and it always will be): don't give up on trying to get him to open up. Somewhere in there, there's a person dying to be known--to be known in his true self. As Darlene has posted above, fear may play a role here. Exposing his "existential" vulnerability may be the last thing Charlie wants to do, but it may also be the very thing he most needs to do in order to have a truly fulfilling relationship, both with you as well as with himself. Your patience, understanding, and love may one day lead him to appreciate the lightness of being that comes from knowing that at least one other person in this world knows us as we know ourselves. It leads to authenticity, an authenticity that can never be vitiated by what Sartre called "bad faith" (accepting to live, and to be in the world, in such a manner that we know, deep down inside, is below our full potential as human beings).

The best way (and, perhaps, the only way) to reach Charlie in this, is, as Deborah and others have suggested, to communicate, to talk, and to listen. Don't try to criticize (however constructively you do so) or analyze or interpret right away; just give him enough room so that he may be allowed to begin the difficult process of drawing himself out of himself as you patiently encourage him to do so.

By the way, Mimi, all this is just from my own experience; I'm not a therapist so take whatever you find most useful in these thoughts and see for yourself if any of this is applicable in your own situation. And good luck!

One last thing. About your signature, I hope you realize that it's more in your power than you think to ensure that this eventually be the case.

Love,
CJ

[Josey]

Hi Mimi,

First, let me also welcome you to this forum. I agree with the others that more SO's that can post here, the better for all.

I read this entire thread with great interest. For a very long time, I was Charlie. I went through most of my life worrying about why I did what I did and hiding it from others. I felt very unsure of my self and felt a little inferior to everyone else. I avoided moving into positions where I had to deal closer with others, as in positions of supervision. Most of this time, I was married to a woman who knew about me and was very unsupportive, increasing my already large inferiority complex.

Then, a very interesting thing happened. During my last 15 years of work (I'm retired now), I remarried to a wonderful woman who fully supported me. She and I talked about my feelings and made me feel that I was not inferior. In fact, she pointed out things, as you did in your description of Charlie, that made me a little better than most of her friends husbands, and I got all kinds of good feelings. I started becoming more interested in improving myself which resulted in movement up in the company. By the time I retired, I had moved well into middle management. (Interesting enough, I started to use the word "aggressive" in this description but I never did feel agressive. Actually, I just got to feel like I was the best "man" for the job. I guess that showed and others agreed with me. )

While each of us are different, and like CJ I am no analyst, you might try to talk with Charlie about his feelings. If he has hidden his dressing for most of his life, as most of us have done, he may feel some tinge of inferiority which makes him think he is not best qualified to handle these positions. Your talking could make him feel a lot more secure about his own talents in dealing with others and change his mind entirely.

I do hope this works for you and Charlie since it is obviously bothering you. I should add that during my career, I knew very well qualified persons who were just very happy with what they were doing and did not want to change just for advancement. There was nothing wrong with them, or at least nothing that showed. They just liked their job. There's a lot to say for that. A person who likes what they do can be a lot easier person to live with than one who hates what they must do to earn a living.

Please do stay in touch and give us all the views of another SO. We all learn from them.

[MiMi (SO)]

Dear Darlene,

First allow me to thank you for your kind words. One fear I have is that the presentation of myself in the medium of these posts is far more enhanced that the real-life person I am. I certainly "talk" too much about Charlie, never tell my faults. I ask for advice based on the bias information I present. As an aside I feel compelled to say I think I am beginning to become addicted to all the positive feedback and demonstration of intelligent thought I've found on this forum. Having said that I'll fall back into the pattern of my previous responses.

I feel your words are deeper than my comprehension. Fear is an awful enemy whenever one encounters it. You are correct when you say I am afraid, I guess I don't see how I can not be. After giving your words much thought I faced the lion - my own fear, with all the what-if questions. I realized that whatever the truth is I'd deal with it. Knowing I come from a place of love and respect for Charlie and myself, I demanded as much honesty of myself from Charlie.

After answering all those flighty what-if questions I concluded what I need most is to believe Charlie is telling me the entire truth. I decided the one and only way to find this out was to ask Charlie the hard questions if he would permit, then interpret the answers. We had a very personal and deeply touching conversation.

I came away deciding to believe what I see, albeit I may be watching a bit more closely. He was surprised to learn I felt betrayed. In light of the fact that this wasn't our first conversation I had a hard time understanding this. There you go - different perceptions of the same experience.

Have I interpreted your message about fear being my enemy as you intended? You may have been suggesting something entirely different, if so I'd welcome an elaboration of your thoughts.

One final thought - I certainly agree with the uniform motions theory, oh why must those impressed forces hurt so much!

You have been very helpful and I deeply - Thank You! Love...MiMi

[MiMi (SO)]

Deborah - I appreciate your note. Communication certainly seems to be the key, I will kept the doors open & thank you for your support.

Beauty - You asked "Do you think your DH is taking it to another level? Thinking that maybe any promotion is one too many promotions?" I'm only beginning to know what level he & we are on. I do believe the only thing that has changed lately is that I have found out.

I loved the graphics in your note, they brought several smiles to my face -Thanks for you thoughts!

Lefty - To answer "Do you think that your spouse needs a change of occupation? " Yes, yes, yes. I do think Charlie needs a change of occupation, he does too. Problem - he simply doesn't take any action. I think Darlene's theory is in play here: "Every body continues in their state of rest, or of uniform motion in a straight line, unless they are compelled to change that state by forces impressed upon it. " Perhaps the outcome of all this soul searching will be the impetus we need.

CJ - I have read, and re-read your posts numerous time. Your words dig so deep into my brain I can hardly see. The imperative to survive psychologically is pervasive. I believe a person develops behaviors one is hard pressed to recognize within oneself. Perhaps, as I think you have eluded, is where Charlie is after all these years, and myself as well.

I agree that communication is the key. The core of my problem at this time is communication, not simply transmission is essential to the health our relationship. I don't perceive my communications with Charlie as criticizism but looking in his mind's eye he must feel exactly that way. I do tend to analyze and I'm certain this scrutiny must feel like criticism, though the furthest thing from my mind. Before I could possibly criticize anyone or anything I must understand. Right now I understand very, very little. There again the different perspectives.

I have decided to accept what Charlie tells me as the entire truth. As naive as I know this seems I think it is the only safe haven for the moment.

I can only hope that I have convinced Charlie that I love every aspect of him and going forward we can both be exactly who we are. Your messages have been especially thought provoking. I thank you now & will think of you when I am pleasantly remembering even these things.

I will always consider you a beloved, and revered berdache. Love...MiMi

Josie - Thank you for the warm welcome. You mentioned a feeling of inferiority. That thought came as quite a shock to me because Charlie is anything but inferior in my eyes. Looking at it from his eyes, there may be some truth to that.

Regarding Charlie's career, I would be satisfied if he were happy with what he was doing. Unfortunately that is not the case. Reaching ones apology is most difficult, if not impossible if a person carries around what I'm begining to think Charlie may be; the feelings of inferiority, fear of discovery, etc. Thank you for your thoughts, I have so much to learn.

Warm Regards...MiMi

~~~
My love and respect to all who have so thoughtfully shared themselves with me. Love and Best Wishes...MiMi

[Jamie Ann]

     Considering the lack of data on even the most basic questions about CDing — for instance, what percentage of the adult male population crossdresses? — it is hard to imagine that anyone could give a conclusive answer to the question of whether a lack of ambition has anything to do with CDing. Still, my gut-level feeling is that the two are completely unrelated. People may have a “fear of success” that leads them to avoid positions where they worry that they would be overwhelmed, but this is most apt to be true of genetic women, especially those who do not have access to mentors, roles models, or others who would boost their confidence. Also, people may opt for less work responsibilities so that they have more time for other things, but CDing is not so demanding that it cannot be combined with an occupation. Charlie may like certain kinds of work and not like other kinds, with the “promotion” label being incidental to his reasons for not accepting certain job opportunities. There are other possibilities as well. In sum, whatever Charlie’s reasons, I think it is coincidence that he has certain attitudes about work and he is a CD.