Until gender can be proven we will never be accepted

[Anne Bonny]

I believe the general public does not and probably never will accept us until our gender can be factually and definitively proven. I am not sure unless genetic research happens across something that being transgender will ever be seen as nothing more than a claim based on what we experience inside our own head.

Kind of sad that we struggle with this our whole lives only to be largely written off as a bunch of deviants and perverts. That the religious believe we can be cured through "conversion therapy" and prayer. Most see us and believe everyone of us has one sexual orientation...homosexual. They will never accept who we are except I suppose with a groan and a shrug...wearied by it all and say ok you can dress anyway you want it's your business, even though they continue to think it's just a fetish, something we have adopted, that we are just a bunch of fakers...acting the way we do out of some sexual perversion or because we want to troll for a butch partner...

We know how we are psychologically torn, we know our struggle but unfortunately we cannot prove this is due to our genetic make up. If we could prove it imagine the difference it would make in our lives. People would have no choice but to face and to accept the facts or they would be the ones seen as being in denial.

Oh well...

[Joan Grey]

(I know somebody's going to want to smack the snot out of me for this, but here goes anyhow...)

You speak of something definitive that can't be factually proven or dis-proven. I think that alone makes it somewhat like religion. Many on this site will say, like religion, that it can be proven, and to them, and what they believe, knowing how they feel is proof enough! Let's face it, there are some that believe, and some that don't. Those that do believe don't all believe the same thing or the same way. There are extremes in religion just like there are in crossdressing, and the extremists, quite naturally, don't see themselves as being extreme.

Then again, we should also keep in mind that opinions are like pot hole, everyone's got one....

[Anne Bonny]

Hum...Well I am an agnostic myself reserving judgement on what will never be proven definitively one way or the other. I tend to believe there is no god but reserve judgement on that question, hence there is no such thing as sin just human nature. We can be very bad or very good but most strive to be their best self naturally we are social creatures and want to get along...except for criminals who are in a minority.

No intention to make this thread about religion...please. I was just stating that the religious believe what I stated and they do exist and believe what they believe...I am not for or against them they are free to believe whatever as long as they stay out of my life.

[DonnaT]

There are already a good number of scientific studies giving proof.

Problem is, there are a number of anti-trans psychologists/psychiatrists and religious fanatics who have a bigger platform depicting the research as bunk or as "the trans agenda."

[Anne Bonny]

So many things that hurt when we know...or at least have lived with it all of our lives. Like my own son who seeks to pressure me, and to find ways to push without so many words to move out of sight, or tells me his fiancee is coming over for lunch...knocking on the door as I was working with my wife - A M care dressed fully masculine - grrr but he could not see me but wanted to let me know...or like when he comes in first to be sure I am not dressed feminine then goes back out and brings in his visitor (s). Says he has told his fiancee...well, if he has he continues to act as if she is clueless. Gee can she be so outraged by it that she refuses to see or discuss it? I believe he has not told her. I hate people who want to send me back to the days of hiding in a closet and having to duck out of sight.

Today he came back from a test for an employment opportunity and I was dressed, doesn't say anything when he sees me...then because our sitter is coming this afternoon, I grabbed my wind breaker one my wife had bought that was still new before she got worse...XXL too big but adjust the sleeves and it works, pretty lavender or light purple color...grabbed my purse and drove to the ATM to get the money to pay her...fully dressed, make up, jewelry and all...I am living as a woman and going out at least in the car with no problems. My hair is long enough to style so it looks great, hate wigs. I think I look nice anyway, very feminine at least from the front...I do not like my profile. ugh...

Yes...I suppose there are studies and there will always be deniers no matter what those studies show, I do hope better and more definitive ones come out eventually never the less. I would like it if these people had it shoved in their faces - SEE!? Now go away...Until then we are free to live our lives, and they will continue to discriminate against us and persecute us but if they do anything to violate our rights we can go after them. I am glad to see more and more of this in the news...they are going to have to shut up and go away and leave us alone!

It would be nice to live in a perfect world but we don’t. We cannot expect to cease from living as we wait for the world to be a certain way rather than another. We live in the world as it is and sometimes that means you have to step out courageously and just start living and being who you are. People who do not like it are free to object but that is life we do not live in a perfect world, and their objections will go unheeded because we have every right to live and to be who we are. I believe once we step out and have the courage to be ourselves in life we are going to find many new friends and supporters, many who will remain indifferent, and those who do not like it will be few and will not be within our circle of friends. They will certainly not be able to swim against the strong current of change as more and more we also are accepted by society.

The thoughts keep on coming these are good thoughts to me...probably not at all to other people. Suppose I am kinda dumb oh well. the thought is that I am the same person I have always been, the only thing which has changed is what is visible to others and the courage to wear it when I am feeling my femm and want my outer self to be in sync with my inner self. I am gender fluid so when I am in my homme...my outer appearance is in sync with that. Sometimes I am enhomme because It is easier there will always be people who freak I could say screw them! but nope...I am considerate, and sometimes I lay down to denial by family like my son grrrr! but hey! it's a whole new world... "Oh Brave New World that has such people in it!" I was thinking of Huxley who got it from my favorite dramatist Shakespeare...

[Noeleena]

Hi,

The = Till gender is proven , does it really matter if it is or not who gives a damn ,

I.v proved i can scraped that hands down , is my acceptance based on wether im male or female or some of both or none of both , it really does not come into my working with people at very close qurters time and time again year after year , and i get asked are you going to do what you did last year in Answer yes i will and those who know me dont stop being my friends ,

To me its about the person first and last what happens after that really does not count .

People ...LOOK... hard at my whole being and what do they see if you asked those i know some 2000 people what would thier answer be , would they still be my friends had i been born a complete male seems so ...yes... and would they still be my friends had i been born a complete female ... yes ...
well im not ether of those , and im still accepted as who i am just the same .

Oh and the clothes did not make me any different no matter what i wear , proved that allso with our groups and i thought would it make a difference , seems not .

...................................................................................

So to be accepted you go to others and get involved with them

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You dont need to wonder about it you show them in your actions and deeds and who you are in all aspects of life, then the ?s will never need to be asked ever , no doubts and not what if,s ,

life ...life ....life ....is what you do with it in 10 years time will you still ask those same ?s or will you say , this is what im ...DOING...and where i am and who im involved with ,

Wear what ever walk out your door and live your life before you and enjoy it to the full ....

Does it take guts to do it maybe i dont know....... i only know i got on and did what i needed to do and am living my life with all those friends around me who most i never had before , time frame 6 years .real life real people and more to come .

...noeleena...

[Paulette]

I suspect that cross dressing, dysphoria, and trans-ness of all varieties and degrees, are the result of a large number of things, rather than simply one thing. Genetic variation, pre-natal exposure or lack of exposure to various things, early childhood experiences, patterns of child rearing, trauma, conditioning, learned associations, and on and on.

There are hundreds of possible variations or combinations of influences. More likely thousands. And are any two of us so alike that we can say that this, or that, or the other are shared and identical influences, or causes?

So we are stuck with self-definitions, with behavioral descriptions, and with the popular labels of the moment. I think each of us has the right to describe ourselves as we wish, and however we wish, regardless of anyone else's perceptions or judgement. We are what we call ourselves, and that should be the end of it.

I worked in special education for most of my life, from teacher to school principal, from diagnostician through assessment and curriculum designer, and to publisher of diagnostic materials, and everyone wants a label and a distinctive category for every child. For anyone but the teacher, the label or grade is irrelevant. It's only purpose to to categorize, not to teach, not to help the child. Labels are management tools, and say little or nothing about the children themselves.

Similarly, such labels are not useful to us, either, except perhaps politically - and politics is about power. So when people discriminate on the basis of labels, they are exercising power over those they label.

Inclusion and exclusion are based on these labels, and they thereby become the fulcrums of power. In our own lives TERFs, Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists, attempt to exclude us from their groups, their privileges, their identities. They claim the right to exclude us in the name of feminism, and that's simply not true to the historical meaning of feminism -- not even true to "radical" feminism. Indeed, the great divisions among feminists have to do with inclusion and exclusion of some from their ranks. These people are really not like us, they say. And in so saying they declare themselves to be bigots.

And now we have those who say we should not be included under the umbrella of gay/lesbian/bi-sexual. This too is a power play, and exclusionary. Essentially the stance of a bigot, and an attempt to squeeze us into smaller and smaller categorical boxes, until we are alone and without allies, until we disappear.

And now that you know this, you can respond to their real goals, and declare your solidarity with all gender and sexual variation and richness. Let us stand together with our whole family, and not allow our labels, our names to deny any of us the association and power of all of us.

[This is rambling and not terribly clear, for which you have my apologies. Perhaps someone else can deal with it better than I. I certainly hope so.]

[Davita]

I don't think I've proved my gender, but I've stated how I feel, what I want and how I want to be treated. I bet leaving gender out or in the discussion wouldn't make a difference. My friends are still my friends, the a**holes of the world are still a**holes. People either like me or not.

I happen to work with a great batch of people in a pretty good organization when it comes to equality. I go to work fully fem when I want and drab when its necessary in my personal life. No one complains if they see me in the men's room and they don't complain when they see me in the ladies' room. I would like to say it's obvious I'm transgender and I'm accepted.

All that said, define "accepted." Some people don't care, some don't like it and some embrace ME as I am. The better half has her issues and others have theirs. I feel you could equate most of how these people feel to disliking smokers or drunks or gamblers or whatever they don't happen to like. BUT the people accept who and what I am.

[Anne Bonny]

Wow Noleena…I think that is your best yet…so warm and caring such wonderful advice to me…and I am learning. I am going out that door! I am around people dressed openly. More than ever before more than I had ever imagined possible. And it is wonderful.
I seem to be gradually getting my feet wet…then going to the knees and now to the waste as I get used to the coolness of the waters of being fully out to everyone and completely open. I do think there are people I still do not want to know about me but that is limiting. The following steps will be getting out of the car and entering a place of business or a restaurant..though my diet has substantially changed I can still treat myself as long it is not greasy or nauseatingly dripping with condiments. I can no longer eat hamburgers, perhaps the burger itself on a plane bun? Certainly a Steak and Potato….

Hey Paulette... Yeah I can see that a combination of nurture and nature who knows and probably both are true. I believe I have always been this way that my nebulous "gender" a difficult concept to grasp because it is not really personality or personality traits thought perhaps tendencies and ranges within where men vs women tend to be??? We are capable of a wide range of behaviors and traits but tend to fall in a certain segment range of the spectrum where men and women tend to habitate in certain segments of the range of behaviors. Who knows that is as I see it. But I do believe my gender is a blend which is mostly masculine on balance...And I have certainly been conditioned by nurturing and many different life experiences and what I have been exposed to as well... Interesting.

I agree ... no labels... it is more what or how I am and how I feel inside call it whatever you will..."blue emu!" ha! People can include or exclude yes but people and groups and movements only have the power over us we allow them to have. I have found ignoring what is happening is very healthy. No anger, no stress, no loss of money from my pocket - going to vote is free and my drop in the bucket added to millions of others is all that counts in the end and will determine in a very small way the direction that will be pushed upon us all for a few years. Don't worry, be happy but do go to cast your drop into the big bucket with your vote, or not it's up to you. I am no longer worrying too much about it all it all has very little effect ... at least so far on my day to day life personally but if they start dictating and incroaching on my comfort and freedom I am sure I will not be the only one to be roused, angered and to rise up to make sure they are overturned so I can just get back to living and enjoying my peaceful life.

Hi Davita...I bow to those living openly with years of experience doing so...I am just making my first tentative steps into a world you have been living for years. It is a huge thing for me right now as the world is a huge place to a child just exploring what is all new to them. That is where I am coming from. I really appreciate your advice and I am finding that to be true. I have to conquer my fear to find hey! There was nothing to be afraid of! How dumb to live my life hiding in a closet cowering and afraid when I needn't have been. So frustrating when you think about it...how dumb!
Yeah...as I have opened up, as I have started to go outside and to drive around I am finding that...shopping en drab and being open the items are for myself...the following step will be to actually go into businesses...to actually live openly as you have for years. I am a youngster. At 58 pushing 59 next march...I am a child still. Well, can't regret, I am where I am and it is time to move on and to get on with living openly. Cannot regret seeing 20 year old's who are very pretty and who are already living their lives while I have kept myself from living. Nope! I can only move forward and I will continue to move forward because being completely out and open is my goal.

[Ralitsa]

I think that accepting a person should have nothing to do with proving anything. Why should you have to prove to anyone that you are, or are not, something or another? So if you were applying for a job you might have to prove you can do the work, but beyond that the notion of proving yourself is absurd.

People can only make you feel guilty about what you are doing if you believe that what you are doing is wrong. That one I used to be married to tried every trick in the book to do it, including scheduling a meeting with the local priest who was supposed to tell me I was a horrible sinner and going strait to hell. He didn't say that though, he was pretty philosophical about it and basically said "fashions have been changing completely for centuries so you really shouldn't take it very seriously." Now had she dealt honestly with me, then I would have been willing to work something out. But she pulled some really horrible stuff that we don't need to get in to, so I basically adopted the attitude of "if you don't like it, that's your own problem." And that is the attitude I still have: if someone has a problem with what I'm wearing then it's their own problem and not mine.

So I would ask "what sort of acceptance, and from whom, are you looking for?" Do you just want them to stop trying to make you feel guilty? Then come strait out and say "this is what I want and I'm going to do it. It's not wrong, I'm not hurting anyone, and it's nobody's business but my own." One of the tricks my ex used to try to manipulate me was to insinuate that if I didn't play along with her games that she would tell on me. Very childish, and I dealt with that by letting the whole world know that this is what I am, and anyone that doesn't like it can take a long walk off a short pier. The instant you do that, you take away any power they think the have over you. Ultimately, you friends will always stick by you regardless of what you are wearing, and I found out in a hurry who was my friend and who wasn't. Now the people who I think are my friends really are, and I know I can trust them.
Actually, it really simplifies matters. All of the do-gooders cast you out of their cliques and no longer speak to you, so it saves you the effort of being nice to them. People who are interested in status and climbing the social ladder no longer hang around you asking for favors. And people who deal with you at all, do so honestly. There are no pretensions or manipulations.
So it frees up a lot of your attention and mental effort which you can then devote to more worthy pursuits, such as improving your wardrobe. When you no longer have to think about all the games people are playing, you can spend time shopping at the fabric store and working with a dressmaker to custom sew you some really nice things. Most of my favorite dresses were sewn for me by hand by a dressmaker I know. She has a million patterns, so I would have coffee with her and look through them for things I liked. Sometimes we would go to the fabric store together and see what we could find. Once I found this really nice stretchy grey and charcoal print fabric and I had her make that into a simple casual dress - one that fits my category of CGD (casual grey dress) that everyone needs at least one of. Because she made it to fit, it is absolutely the most comfortable thing I own. She is working on some other things for me too, but since I moved to Montana I haven't had a chance to talk to her about them.
With your responsibilities of caring for your wife, I know you can't spend that sort of time shopping and indulging your other hobbies. But at the same time, you don't have the time or energy to deal with people playing games and trying to manipulate you into some behavior they want. I think you should just tell them, "this is what I'm doing, and I have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with you and whatever problems you have."

[Diana Michelle]

I believe Ralista has it right here. Having grown up in a family of engineers then being married to a physician then another engineer maybe I am looking at this too clinical but lets think about "proving" gender for a minute. In order to prove anything from a scientific approach we must define it then be able to quantify it. How does one define gender? Clothes? Actions? Genetics? Thought process? I think you can see the issue here. Now let us assume (yes I know about the word assume ) that we can somehow define it how do we quantify it? Is this I am more female than you but more male than her? Remember I am not talking feminine or masculine but rather female and male, there is a big difference. Remember 5th grade English, nouns versus adjectives? Males can be very feminine as well as females can be masculine! Think the stereotype gay male and butch lesbian. Yes I know this may not be PC but I hope you all see where I am going with this. Remember this is not about how we see ourselves but how the world sees us.

I know that many of you are thinking OK so now how do you define individuals on the transgendered scale and if they are proper candidates for GRS? Here we have actual tried and true test processes as well as input from therapists who define a person's gender. The problem is way too many do not understand this nor do they want to. Also it is not like we all wear a badge showing the percentage of feminine and masculine within us. Even the most masculine of men has a percentage of female in him and vice versa.

The same people who have issues when they see an individual in public presenting a gender they were not born are also the people who see those who transition or have surgery to correct nature's mistake as freaks. For the most part these people are also homophobes as well as prejudiced against other ethnic groups. In simple words they are your stereotype bigot.

Anne your idea is great and in an ideal world it may work but basic human nature, preferences, and prejudices make it impossible. gender is what we personally define it as. An ex-boss of mine used to say some things just are, they're not right, they're not wrong, they just are! To most of the world gender is one of those things.

[Anne Bonny]

Wow! that is a key idea...and I have thought that too..."It would be wonderful if everybody I know knew, understood, and we're fully accepting and encouraging. Nice dream but the reality would be quite different...but perhaps with more acceptance than my worst fears (I mean I bet I would be very supprised to find acceptance and at least a few, perhaps a good number of people telling me it does not matter)...well...maybe." I talk with my girl gg friends...and my goal is to be completely out and open to everybody. You are absolutely right that anyone who believes they can use any of this against me would be completely powerless at that point. Of course they are really there now because if they did find out I would basically tell them, yes this is who I am and if you do not like it leave! I am in an extremely strong position, military retirement, health care, dental along with other income - I no longer need to work to enjoy a very acceptable and comfortable lifestyle. I know very very few people in the town I live in here on the gulf coast and they already know. So I would not be running into people I currently would not tell because they live miles and miles away. I only have two neighbors, good chance they know from seeing me dressed when I have been outside briefly?? I will soon be completely alone and single, next year? certainly not more than two. Our sons are about out of the nest, one away at college, the other working up to a time when he can move out into an apartment. Both sons know. So I am lucky.

I am though not quite as thick skinned as most are about going out into the public world...though I have started taking baby steps...driving to the ATM in the day time. Last night I realized If I had a friend I would have no problem driving over to their home to visit, leaving the entire idea of being "dressed" out of it, I mean what I happen to wear would be whatever I desired but in my thought I meant yes I would have no problem wearing a dress (or any style of female clothing) getting out of the car walking up and ringing their door bell for a visit if invited over. So I am getting there.

Today and yesterday so happens I am in male mode, I am gender fluid so this is ok too it is just who I happen to be.

Well I do not know of any seamstresses locally...I just purchase off of the rack in my size or online. I am very pleased that I have spent several hundred purchasing some new things dresses this summer, new shorts, and for the fall a nice sweater, jeans, shirts, tops, belts to cinch in some to give the illusion of hips...and other things too with a mind on even more...new forms and bras too recently...

My legs are smooth and hairless, toes shiny red, hair now about an inch over the tip of my ears and this time I believe I will be successful, I am liking it and am wanting a length at least to the upper part of my earlobes if not longer so I can really style it feminine which is just an absolute thrill and much prettier than any wig. Nails I keep buffed up they shine and are long though fingernails are problematic because as a man the thumb, index, and middle finger nails are constantly getting hangnails from tears that then need to be filed so I do not lose more of the nail... I do and will have my ears pierced at some point, I mean I am a gurl this is who I am sometimes...I'm a part time gurl...living in an up town world....looking for a backstreet girl...bla bla bla...

But for now...there are people in my life who will never accept who I am...well nearly half of who I am...the female part of who I am...My wife's MIL, My wifes life long friend who drives the MIL over because she is too old, my oldest sister all of whom live miles away from me, Oh and probably nearly everybody in my wife's family...they are just too damned religious and traditional to ever accept all of who I am. So why even tell them, at least until my wife passes, and hopefully if the MIL passes then the need for hiding from her will be over and at that point from my wife's family, they are not my blood relatives, and live at least 80 miles away, and I will no longer have any reason to see any of them ever again, have not seen most of them in years anyway and would not want to. I do not hunt, I am not a country red neck, not traditional or religious so they are just not my kind of people to hang out with or to really want to even be around because our outlook on life is really different. I do need to tell my only neighbors, of course I think there is a chance they know from having seen me going out in the yard on occasion - mail, trash, driving up...?

Yeah...I am getting there and am very happy...look at my avatar that's a recent photo. I am very tired of suppressing, I have suppressed all of my life - not any more. The freedom of being out and open is addicting and very powerful. I believe once a crossdresser begins to come out even little by little as I have done...they will find more and more confidence and strength and along with that the flat out refusal to ever be put back into a deep dark closet ever again...NEVER EVER again!!!!

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Yes...it is very subjective...and it is silly trying to quantify or to prove. It would be nice but...even if we could prove it it would still not be accepted and would continue to be denied....as the religious like to deny evolution and dinosaurs and much of natural history.

The really best thing I have done for myself has been to figure all of this out to the best of my ability so that I now understand it all. I am really incredibly happy with where I am today. I am strong, a lot stronger, I am confident, and I am now able to move toward being out completely to nearly everyone, at some point I will be completely out. I know where I am and I know what the right choices are for me. I understand exactly where I am. I am indeed gender fluid... on balance male...on balance, heterosexual...and I am well... at least this part of my life along with being thin, fit and incredibly healthy this part of my life is beyond words.... Great success, incredibly happy, and the best it can be...but there is progress to be made and it will come. Thanks Y'all...

[Paulette]

You go, girl!

Be who you are, who you really are; and if they can't take it, leave them behind.