To SOs from a lifelong CD

A 'round table' for CDs, TGs and GG/SOs to talk with each other. We're all in this together, so let's make the most of it.

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Julie M.
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To SOs from a lifelong CD

Post by Julie M. »

I just read some of your comments and much of what I read I have heard from my wife. We have been married 22+ years and she has known about this since before we were engaged. She is tolerant but would rather not be bothered with it.

Common concerns that seem to come up time and time again with the SOs stems from lack of education about just what crossdressing is all about.* The media is fond of broadcasting all the sensational stories of transgerderism but never focuses on the the reality that the vast majority of us live in. For you to ever reach a level of understanding you need to become as educated as you can about the subject. That of course requires you to have knowledge about which sources are accurate. I can tell you for certain the media is not one of them,

I have stopped trying to figure out why I like to CD. I have come to the realization it is lke trying to determine why one person likes the color blue and another likes red. If the person who liked red was told from youth it was wrong to like red they wouldn't stop liking red but they would certainly grow up having a guilt complex because they do. Our society has decided men and women should dress a certain way. Does that mean it's right? Women have made it clear they don't want to have to wear dresses all the time or even bras. They don't want to live up to those societal expectations because they are too restrictive. They won the right to dress as they want. Men have not.

The vast majority of men who CD aren't going to have a sex change, start a gay relationship or go out and try to pick up a man and they certainly aren't trying to compete with women. The clothing is just an expression of the inner self. Imagine women's reaction if men would have asked them the same questions when they started wearing pants on a regular basis. The women would have thought the men were overreacting and maybe even hysterical. Women know wearing pants and suits and even menswear clothing are all options they have to express themselves.

So why not allow men the same options? Yes, it will take some getting used to. You first have to get over your fears that your CDing SO is going to change. He's the same he always been but now you just know him better. The better you know him and the more you accept him the better your relationship will become. There may be an initial surge because he has kept this buried for most of his life, but is should subside. I'd even say go overboard and push him to do it. He may not like doing all that work all the time and find just what woman discovered, pants and a loose sweatshirt really are more comfortable. You'll never know until you try. Look at it this way, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

*After re-reading this sentence I realized I stated it poorly. I was not trying to say SOs were uneducated about crossdressing. In my mind I was looking at how so many things we once thought were so horrible have come to be openly accepted. This acceptance comes from a eventual reality about what that once horrible thing is really about. Once we find that (outside society's attitude) it is really harming no one, we will ease up on our prejudices. To me, that's the reality of crossdressing; it is truly, in it's base form, harmless. If there wasn't such a stigma, my dressing as a woman in public wouldn't hurt a fly. When you look at a group of Goth teenagers with all their body piercings, wild hair and all, you might think it strange but as long as they hurt no one, what's the problem? I believe the time will come soon when we will look back and ask, "What were we all so worried about?" I'm just trying to help that evolution along.

I want to apologize to anyone whom I may have offended. My typing is slow and can't keep up with my thoughts and I miss putting the words down that properly reflect my thoughts. :oops: I'll put more into re-reading before I post. #-o
Last edited by Julie M. on Mon May 03, 2004 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
RedJellyBaby(SO)
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Post by RedJellyBaby(SO) »

I think it is tempting to blame an SOs intolerance on lack of knowledge about the subject but in my case as soon as i found out i felt drawn to the net to research what it all meant. Surely you dont think that most SOs gain their knowledge from media alone and are fooled by the stereotypical representations portrayed in that area?

OK so i have just found out (ive actually known since november-ish but lets pretend) and i am surprised and may well feel deceived. Thats only to be expected...especially if, contrary to your situation, ive say, been married for some time, had children with this man, expected to stay together forever etc...then theres this big secret and there was me thinking we were so close we could tell each other everything!

Also i have a problem on the respect front...how come some CDs advocate telling and appreciate that by not telling, their SO is not 'really knowing' who theyre spending their lives with, and some CDs will justify not telling at all. Have we all forgotten about intuition?? I for one, knew SOMETHING was wrong. Couldnt quite put my finger on it but it was there. But these women should be left what 'in blissful ignorance'?

I love my husband so i try not to judge, scorn, become impatient when the answer to many questions seems to be 'I dont know' or 'I cant be sure of that at this stage'. Not all SOs run screaming from the houses or treat their husbands with cool contempt each time they see them. I spend every minute of every day soul searching for the key that will make things 'feel' ok again. That doesnt equate to me ignoring how im 'feeling', what 'pains' me, to go overboard as you put it, just to appease him.

I agree that we are all a product of conforming with societal standards and norms. However, its not just clothes is it? I dont see it as being as simple as that..so women wear trousers. CDs wear make-up and give themselves en femme names... what would be the So cross dressing equivalent of that then? You know, i just cant see many men being ok with their wives/girlfriends coming home one day and saying they have decided to try out growing a beard, intend to take hormones to facilitate hair growth ?
Maybe i am just cynical and men wouldnt mind..anyone?
Kersten Lee
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Post by Kersten Lee »

Julie,
For me and my wife of 29 years it is more complex than you wrote.
It's a subject that still causes hurt between us at times. I used to
think education is a cure for everything, but not anymore. It is harder to
walk a mile in anothers shoes than I used to think. My wife has watched
educational programing with me. She has talked with me over these issues
as I have gone through therapy. She has read everything from here that I
have printed for her from here. She has read page after page of internet
that I thought would help explain my behavior and actions.

The thing is, when you said I can't fully understand why I crossdress, but
I am accepting it (paraphrasing): that was the key to understanding
my wife. Her feelings can't be mine. I cannot hope or expect that my wife
will love everything that I love being crossdressed. To expect her to be
100% on board is no different than if she would expect me to stop
cold turkey and be happy. If we think about it, this is just another item
we have to compromise. No different than one of us would want to
vacation in the southwest and I would love to see Washington D.C.
( Better yet would be seeing the government en femme. )

I still want to feel the way you described yet, but I always come back
to the thought she has a right to her feelings too even if I can't
understand her.

Please don't look at my post as criticism. I am only telling of my current
thought processes to enlarge the discussion.

Hugs,
Kersten
Loretta Ann
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Post by Loretta Ann »

Julie.

Do women dress in jeans or slacks and a shirt for the same reason that men wear dresses etc; Does it give them the same thrill as it gives us? I think not! Is this not attempting to compare apples and oranges?

In other words what I am asking you is dose your definition of cross-dressing meet the same emotional needs in women that it dose in men. again I think not. But perhaps I need to be enlightened?
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Julie M.
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Post by Julie M. »

I need to stress no post that short could cover all there is to cover about crossdressing issues between loved ones. I would never try to tackle something that monumental in such a short time.

I realize there are tons of issues and I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for the countless couples who struggle with this as everyone is different. And I won't try to.

In my message I was trying to purposely oversimplify the issue because it needs to be looked at more simplistically. There are volumes upon volumes of research papers, books and magazines on this subject. Yet even after all these studies has anyone come up with the answer to "Why?" No.

Look at my analogy about the color red. We’ll just say for some reason it had been passed down through the generations that red was an evil thing and no one should even think about it. It was just how we were all taught. If you look back on history there have been many times when something was viewed so negatively that people were put to death. Today we see most of those things as really harmless and we attribute the reaction those in the past had to being ignorant of the real facts. That's how I see crossdressing. It is viewed very negatively but in it's simple reality it is harmless.

The reason for this attitude is due to all that is read into the act of crossdressing. That's why I said to the SOs your husband will not change with your knowledge he's a CD. He has always been a CD and the man you know is the same man who has been dressing in woman's clothes all or most of his life. It's as much a part of his personality as any other trait you have come to see him having. It is part of what made him who he is today.

I agree with any SO that they certainly have a right to feel upset if their husband kept this hidden from them. That's why I told my girlfriend before she became my wife. I was married at 30 and maybe I had a better understanding that this was a part of me for life and that's why I felt compelled to tell her. I do know however that there were times in my life I was completely convinced that the right woman in my life would make this all go away. It can be so easy to fool yourself if you really want to believe something. Most of you now know that it's not going away, ever. But maybe, for those of you who found out after you were married, your husband believed the same thing. It's pretty common among CDs. "Someday I'll just find the right girl and..." It doesn't work.

Now if I haven't worn out your eyes I'd like to give you a quick look into the typical life of a crossdresser.

Imagine growing up and as you do you realize you have certain likes and dislikes. Nothing unusual there, it happens to us all. But one day you come to realize (and this does happen slowly) that one of the things you really like is seen as horribly wrong. You don't know what to do because you have never seen anything wrong with it so surely everyone must be mistaken. As you grow older you quickly realize that not only does everybody think it's wrong but you could get ganged up on, mocked and even beaten up if anyone found out.

The next stage is learning secrecy. You're still only a kid and learning all sorts of life lessons. This one is one you learn early and well. You have to become good at it just to survive. You start to think you are the only one in the world like this. You begin to lose self-confidence. You spend a lot of your energies fighting it off and trying to figure out "Why me?”

You go through grade school and grow into puberty. You see how cruel some kids can be and are now even more fearful of being discovered. You bolster yourself inside an even more secure fortress and make sure that part of you remains well guarded. High school is much the same as you begin to date. Now you need to make sure the girls don’t find out because you really like them and could never handle their rejection. So you develop whatever false exterior you need to in order to maintain your image, which you know will be destroyed in a second should your secret get out.

By the time you have made it into the working world (and meet even more people you have to keep your secret from) you develop a relationship that leads to marriage. You have spent your whole life knowing if you told anyone they will immediately think less of you, at best, and probably disown you. You know crossdressing better than all the people you met throughout your entire life put together but they are the ones who have determined this part of you is so wrong. You know it’s harmless. You know no one has ever been hurt by it. You know you are actually a better person while dressed because you’re happier and aren’t wasting energy fighting it off. You know if they meet you and get to know really know you they will see this too. But none of that matters because you have learned that revealing this to those you love could hurt them more than you can bear and it just might destroy you.

All of the attitudes we have learned about crossdressing have originated from our uneducated Victorian ancestors. Somewhere along the line someone decided it was this horrible awful thing that will lead to eternal damnation through the obvious acts one of this sort will eventually partake. It’s like saying drinking a can of beer will make you a heroine addict. Many of us grew up with this attitude and all the while we knew it was making a mountain out of a molehill. So I like the color red? Does it make me the type of person others would loathe to be around? I just don’t see what’s so bad about red.

If you didn’t have the strength to get through this whole diatribe I’ll summarize:

1. Crossdressers are taught to hide their CD nature because an antiquated Victorian attitude trill pervades within our society.
2. This lesson carries on through life and hiding it becomes second nature and almost a requirement for survival.
3. For all the studies done on crossdressing and all the therapy performed no one yet has found a “cure” or been “cured”. It isn’t a malady; it’s a personality trait. Personality traits can’t be treated, they just are. Societal acceptance is the only real “cure”.
4. CDs need to stop hiding this and acting like it’s a bad thing. By doing that there will be less deception and more allowing those you love to come to know he complete you.
5. For all the loved ones of CDs, you need to understand that so much of what you love about the CD person in your life is due to the fact he has learned so many things about life he would never have learned had he not been a CD. Having crossdressing tendencies woven into his personality has been hugely instrumental in making him the person he is today. Take that out of his life and he may have developed into a person you wouldn’t even like.

I apologize to anyone who actually made it through this whole thing. I just tried to better explain myself. If this helps even one person I will feel better for it. And I will never feel offended for anyone disagreeing with me.

Love,
Julie
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Julie M.
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Post by Julie M. »

Darlene wrote:Julie.

Do women dress in jeans or slacks and a shirt for the same reason that men wear dresses etc; Does it give them the same thrill as it gives us? I think not! Is this not attempting to compare apples and oranges?

In other words what I am asking you is dose your definition of cross-dressing meet the same emotional needs in women that it dose in men. again I think not. But perhaps I need to be enlightened?
Darlene,

Where I was going with that is

"Would crossdressers be going to the same extremes if they had the same freedom as women?"

"Do crossdressers go to this degree in order to hope to pass and therefore avoid detection and persecution?"

I really don't see myself doing all that if just being me was acceptable. Today I would probably be sitting here wth long hair that might be pulled back or femininely styled. I may or may not have on makeup. I may or may not be wearing a skirt or dress. After a while the novelty will wear off. The amount of work one must go through to achieve what we now do would just become too much. I'd tire of it. I would probably mostly wear clothes that are feminine but I highly doubt I would have breat forms, padding or wigs. Everyone would have become used to seeing men this way (like we almost expect rock stars to look) and the oddity would be gone. A new standard will have taken its place. Who knows, you might even see a return to the frills and lace of old England.

I'm just saying the freedom to dress as you like without repercussion would most likely lead to a much lesser attempt to look like a woman.
Loretta Ann
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Post by Loretta Ann »

Julie,

I can not speak for you or others here, but it would not lead to a much lesser attempt to look like a woman for me. I dress just far enough to get my emotional needs met, which so far dose not include attempting to pass.

The freedom to dress as you like without repercussion would certainly allow me to venture out doors while dressed, but that would only be for convenience, that would not be meeting any emotional need. As such that is not an issue for me.

However in order for that to take place it would be a totally different picture than what women went through due to the fact that we are doing it in order to meet our emotional needs, which is not the case with women. It is a harder package for society to accept.
Kersten Lee
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Post by Kersten Lee »

Julie M,

I read it all and wasn't bored. Your assessment of a cd's life is similar to
mine. I have been expanding my openness and activities to satisfy,
my emotional needs, as Darlene said. Education of the masses is
a requirement for change, just as in the gay community.

When it comes to our SO's, I still must say that your portrayal applies
to them as well. They grew in this world like you and I. They have
deep seated and personal beliefs and experiences and few would
would love me as my wife has even though her emotions say my dressing
and going in public crosses the line of being comfortable with her.
She can't just eliminate these feelings any different than I. We are
working at growing together with bumps along the way.


Darlene,
Did I understand you right? You have no desire to go out dressed.
My emotional need is to be able to go out and interact with woman.
(not sexually, but socially) Some of my wonderful moments were
socializing with the girls in grade school and working with them
on school projects. I love to converse with woman but would love to
do it dressed and feeling my being as a woman. This would not
satisfy a need in any woman I know, but is important to me in being.
Talking to woman when they know I crossdress is as emotionally
fulfilling as if I was dressed. Strange?

Kersten
Kersten Lee
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Post by Kersten Lee »

Red Jelly Baby,

I am so glad that you shared with us about this personal issue that is
important to so many of us.

Your feelings are what my wife has told me over the years. I
always thought that if anything else I was open to understanding
others views and feelings. In self exploration in therapy I found
that belief about myself was a myth. I have been worrking hard
to rectify that.

It was a lot easier to believe I am ok and my wife had a problem
because she wasn't ok. Even after alll these years she would have
been happier if I could have eliminated my desire to crossdress,
even though she had accepted to enjoy some of my antics.

I am one who finally understands what you are saying. I believe
that the vast majority of woman who dress in jeans and sweat
shirts bears no relationship what so ever with my need to crossdress.

I do hope your husband loves you dearly!
Kersten
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Post by Beauty »

!!!yes!!!
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Julie M.
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Post by Julie M. »

Darlene wrote:Julie,

However in order for that to take place it would be a totally different picture than what women went through due to the fact that we are doing it in order to meet our emotional needs, which is not the case with women. It is a harder package for society to accept.
Darlene,

Let me play the Devil's Advocate. How do we know that the women who started the Women's Movement weren't just like us? We don't because their motives were never analyzed, scrutinized and studied like ours. They went through some persecution for what they did but no one ever asked "What is it about their personalities that makes them want to be less feminine?" Yes, some were called lesbians and man haters but the average woman looked at it as more freedom. They saw opportunity that was never before there. And the good thing about it was you had the choice to take advantage of it to whatever level you wished. It was a great step forward in our society.

But to assume no group of women ever had the same feelings or motives we do just has no facts to back it up. Yes, our SOs tell us that it’s not that way for them and I’m sure they’re being totally honest with us. But what about those who were at the grass roots level of creating these changes? There are many women’s groups today that are headed up by women who are known to be lesbian. They represent a small minority of women just as we represent a small minority of men (no I'm not saying we're gay). We are trying to gain acceptance just as they did. We have a movement of our own but look who heads up our movement, men wearing dresses. Maybe since we never took the time to delve into the deepest-seated motivations these women had we missed finding out whom they really were.

Years from now crossdressing will have the acceptance we now strive for. The average man will probably be seen in clothing that is far more feminine than anything you’ll see today. He’ll be wearing makeup and maybe have his hair styled in what today is a feminine fashion. No one will care because the stigma will be gone. No one will read anything more into it because it has reached a level of acceptance. Some fashion designer will be famous for having started the “Girlswear” fashions for men. Masculine runway models, who just about any red blooded woman would drool over, would have made the Girlswear debut a hit. Hollywood would jump on it first then is would work its way into the mainstream fashion. Cosmetic companies will spend millions on advertisement seeing the potential profits. Clothing designers will be right there with them. Society will ease up on their attitude and you’ll see a decrease in membership at crossdressing organizations throughout the country and the world. Forums like this will become ghost towns. It will be no different than any other movement we have seen. It just takes time.

How do I know this? I have seen the future on college campuses. My daughter’s school has a very strong movement to accept transgendered persons right along with gays and lesbians. When my daughter told her friends her dad was a CD they were jealous. "That's so cool! It must be so great having a dad like that", was one quote. When these students get out into the working world they will bring that attitude with them just as the baby boomers brought their attitudes with them.

It is inevitable so why not start now?

Now it's time to step off my soap box.
Loretta Ann
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Post by Loretta Ann »

Julie wrote;
How do we know that the women who started the Women's Movement weren't just like us?
I answer that question for myself by what has been stated here by our SOs and other women who I have met that have clearly stated that they do not have the same requirements as men in order to feel loved.

I guess I am just not the dreamer some of us are and would need more than has been stated here in order to bank on any thing like that. And if it happens to be true, it won't happen in my live time anyway.

If you have read enough of my posts you will have found out that I am not one to argue, or attempt to change peoples minds. I like to trust that others are intelligent enough to draw there own conclusions, and therefore from my position this conversation is over. Other than responding to Kersten, I have no further need to respond to this thread.
No soap box here. zzzzzz
Last edited by Loretta Ann on Sun May 02, 2004 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kersten Lee
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Post by Kersten Lee »

Julie M,

I hope acceptance happens before I die. It would be so coool. It is so
nice to hear about your daughter and changes happening. Any good
changes are wonderful.

You look quite wonderful in your picture and appear that you could
go anywhere without hindrance. I hope you read my good experience from yesterday.

Kersten
PS Sorry I wrote it last night and my connection failed. I have to write
about it again. That makes me so mad.
Loretta Ann
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Post by Loretta Ann »

Yes Kersten you understood me right , I have no desire to go out dressed. One of my emotional needs is to also be able to go out and interact with woman. (not sexually, but socially) And I do that in male mode at least twice a week. The kind of interaction I enjoy the most is the in depth kind of conversations I just had with Kay(SO) in another thread here.
I am not a woman, nor do I want to be one, I used to want to be one until I understood what the complete package contained and said no thank you, I have quite enough problems being who I am with out attempting to take on there's as well.
Talking to woman when they know I cross-dress is as emotionally
fulfilling as if I was dressed.
Would that experience make you feel cherished, special, cuddly, adorable, etc. if you were not dressed? If so I find that strange.

Once I became able to be loved like that, I experienced huge changes inside of me which resulted in me becoming much stronger emotionally. It also resulted in me being able to give to others at a depth that I was never able to before, which has served to make me feel valuable. Another important emotional need met.
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Post by Kay(SO) »

First I need to respond to this original post. Then I'll move on to others...

Julie M. wrote: Common concerns that seem to come up time and time again with the SOs stems from lack of education about just what crossdressing is all about.

My reply: It doesn't matter how educated I became about CDing, I still had/have the fears/concerns about my DH and CDing. It's taken me 7 long years to begin to believe that what HE'S telling me is the way it is for HIM. It has nothing to do with statistics because each CD'r is different, dresses for his own personal feelings, needs and expectations. And the truth is that SOME CD'rs do realize or accept down the road that they are indeed TS and opt for SRS or at least living full time as a woman. Our fears and concerns are merited and grounded in these facts not a lack of knowledge. They are based on the fact that is DOES and can happen and become our reality. For those who were NOT told until years into our relationships, it's even more difficult to believe what we're being told. Why would ANYTHING be true if this was withheld from us? Why wouldn't we be convinced that we're not getting the whole story and that our husband's are possibly gay or TS? My own DH and I have one of the most communicative relationships I know and there are times I still doubt what he's telling me as truth. For example, if I find that he's been looking at "shemale" sites or reading about hormones on the computer. Even if he's not planning anything, my brain takes it's natural course and starts to wonder. And for the record, my DH told me everything before we went on our first date. I know the above to be true based on the friendships I've made with other wives of CD'rs and the stories they share.

Julie wrote: So why not allow men the same options? Yes, it will take some getting used to. You first have to get over your fears that your CDing SO is going to change. He's the same he always been but now you just know him better.

My reply: He already has changed in my mind, just by wanting, needing and putting on women's clothes, make up, wig and boobs. He's not the same man I fell in love with in my mind and he acts differently when he's dressed en femme. It takes great effort on my part emotionally and mentally to realize that it's still him. But, don't tell me he's not different than before I knew. My perspective is that he is different. As an SO.

Julie wrote: I'd even say go overboard and push him to do it.

My reply: Yea right. And the woman ends up a basket case. If you had any idea the range of emotions and turmoil the SO goes through, you would NEVER suggest such a thing. Of course as a CD'r I can see where you would think this would be a good idea. As an SO, I can tell yout that we warn women who just find out to take things slowly, set limits while they sort out their feelings and to take baby steps. This again tells me that there is little understanding about what an SO goes through in dealing with this issue. It's not as simple as you make it sound. And I for one do not consider it flattering that my husband wants to look like me. I find it confusing and strange. I find it difficult everytime I see him dressed to deal with on an emotional level.

My replies may not be met with gratitude but they are honest and I hope that they are taken in a way for you all to reach a greater understanding of what SO's are thinking, feeling and what we go through.

Julie also wrote: Women know wearing pants and suits and even menswear clothing are all options they have to express themselves.

This is not the case for many GG's. It's about comfort, plain and simple. When I throw on a pair of jeans it has nothing whatever to do with expressing my male self. It has to do with the fact that it's more comfortable physically and nothing to do with my psychological self at all.

That's just me and my five cents.

Kay(SO)
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