Earning the right to wear women's clothes

[Estefania]

I have seen this topic coming on and off in others. I think it may have been addressed before, but can't find it.

We can't ignore that in many ways, cd folks can be our own worst enemy (depending on the perspective). (Talking about only about those of us who identify as crossdressers).

How did women earn their right to wear slacks/pants instead of only skirts and dresses? Well, they started wearing them, and started going out wearing them without caring about being rejected and being called all sorts of things by the general public. Libertines, lesbians, etc.
How did gay folks started wining their own rights? by being out there, coming out, assuming being gay, etc.

So, the only real way for CD/TG folks to earn the right to wear any type of clothes in public is... to start wearing any type of clothes in public not caring what people may say/think.

HOWEVER... There is a big complication to this over-simplified notion...

How many of us are ready to start wearing what are currently considered women's clothes in public... as men? Nope... not me. That is not what it is about for me. And I suspect I'm not alone in this boat. For way too many, wearing women's clothes (which are evidently women's clothes) in public is out of the question. In my case because I don't get anything from wearing women's clothes vs. wearing men's clothes. I don't have a problem with the materials, cuts, etc. I know that for some it is different, but for each, their own....

The problem is not only the clothes, but the intention of why we wear the clothes. There are some in this forum who wear women's clothes 24/7 and are not attempting to be seen as a woman. No body shaping, no make up, no wig/long hair. They will be accepted more easily than one who is trying to be accepted as a man pretending to be a woman, IMHO. That would be something that society would be quicker to accept I believe. Because women's clothes are really softer, colors are prettier, etc. So, the clothes by the clothes themselves, yeah, people may get to understand that at some point.

But when we CD and we go out and try to be accepted as a woman (if lucky) or at least as a CD, we have this other problem... those who are "more passable" may get better acceptance than those who are not passable, but interesting enough, those who are not passable at all (I'm not the one judging who is passable or not, let that be in the record!!!!) they may also be better accepted by society.

I guess I'll post this to see your responses/ideas.

Hugs,
Gaby

[Stephanie M]

Good points.
Women didn't earn the right to wear pants by also wearing false beards, taping down the breasts and trying to look like a guy. They wore pants as part of their feminine selves, even going as far as to "feminize" the pants they wore. So yes it is different. The barrier that we need removed is thinking there is something wrong if a guy wants to be femme. How to do that I have no clue.

Part of the problem is we are often seen as perverts and people worry we are going to be doing perverted things in the streets. When the reality is we typically only want to do what "normal people" do out in public. You know like shopping, eating lunch, going to movies, shows, and so forth but doing so while dressed in femme. I realize there are some people who dress for sexual reasons and if they want to do that in private that's their business, but I believe for most of us this is not sexual this is simply part of who we are.

There doesn't seem to be much support out there for the simple crossdresser, meanwhile TG groups are everywhere. So with no outside advocacy I believe most people are totally clueless about us. This is not meant as a shot towards those who are TG, we are just different, and advocacy for you does not seem to include us. Unless we can find a voice I believe we will not be granted the same rights others have. We need our version of Rene Richards, and Caitlyn Jenner before people will be educated about us. But probably none of us want to do it and even if we could who would listen to us? Unless we can find a famous person who just likes to crossdress we are probably SOL.

[Noeleena]

Hi,

Go back a few 100 years and have a look at womens wear pants they were worn a long time before the Boar or 1 st , and 11 nd WW,s they are called bloomers .

women and im included those of us whom are female have a different shaped body to men, men cant wear female clothes because they don't fit not designed to fit and don't look right on men simple .

I have breasts and for the augument 41 in, in size and D cup some women are larger and some like Jos and Our daughter have so little , body shape for women not all, hips are bigger waist is smaller and breasts are larger though we come in different size,s and shapes we in the main are very different from men so our clothes are made for us .

Of cause men well most any way have a sight detail down between their legs so if you wear our knickers for many it will denote your a male unless you try to hide said detail your shoulders are wider heavy,er and your body shape is quite different in other aspects as well ,

some here on this forum I know you would not be able to wear my clothes they are not your fitting and would look rather out of place, and shoes I have women friends who cant wear my shoes over the last 30 plus years our women have gained in size shape and height many I know would not fit my clothes their over all shape size and so on is still shaped as a normal female just over all bigger.

So you need forms and other added features to try and look like us in body shape and size
Now I know some women who would look like some here yet were born female just their bodys shape and size is very much like a male apart from the body difference organs .

many clothes I have I have designed make and sew for my body shape and size yet I can buy clothes that fit nicely and I have women friends who are shaped the same as I am so we can wear each others clothes and look lovely,

Did or do women need to earn any right to wear what ever well no we made and make them so who needs to tell us what we can and cant do ,,,,,Unless you live or have lived in a country that is a dictatership say like China or commnuist land and what they did, or of cause the Army dress code yet even that is designed for males and females so the Armed forces did see that need to be addressed , in as much we are dfferent .

Im not entering into how people see this or their thoughts on what males should or females should or not wear. my writing is addressing the differences .

I can wear a males shurt and its okay just it has to be loose fitting or it will be to tight on my breasts so it has to be larger, male pants just don't fit me and I tried with our Brass Band surplys of uniforms to find a pair that would I gave those back as a I hate them so I brought womens and they fit, very rare I wear them as im in a skirt most times on duty,

On the point of women in the Millitary because of what work we had to perform it would have been very difficult to perform many tasks in a skirt , and would have cause major issues say fire fighting climbing ropes or ladders , its okay in dress uniform as we would be marching or say an evening dressed for a function or the like, or on Parade,

...noeleena...

[Estefania]

I'm glad you understood exactly what I meant Stephanie. The main issue society has with crossdressing is, IMHO, not the wearing of the clothes, but the behavior/simulation changes to try to look like a woman in woman's clothes, not a man in a dress.

You are right that there doesn't seem to be many/enough "CD exclusive" support groups/activities/etc. I have a theory for that... I met this lady at one large cd/tg event. She was a vendor, sold jewelry. She wasn't happy. It was her first time at any of such events. She had thought she was going to make a killing, as her jewelry was pretty, many clip on earrings, larger pieces, etc. Near the end of the event she told me she would be very lucky to break even. I told her that in my opinion, as pretty as her stuff was, there were two big groups within crossdressers whom I thought would not be interested... Those who were very closeted, because even if they loved her stuff couldn't really justify spending a good amount of $ on accessories which nobody was ever going to see other than themselves, and those who were already "bold enough" (To call it something) and were already shopping for themselves either as guys or enfemme, since they had access to all jewelry in every store and were not limited to what only one vendor was selling. (Also, her stuff wasn't cheap, at all, as to be expected for vendors at conferences).

So, about crossdresser-only support groups, they may miss on the same type of would be participants. Those who are deeply inside the closet will want to remain there. Those who are successfully "out" (At least to some degree) may not really need of a support group. And then you have of course those who may join but may realize at some point that crossdressing is only part of what they do, and they need more... So, what would you do if you were the founder of such group? tell them to stop attending the meetings? Many support groups have fallen apart just because such issues...

Back to the your idea, hey, I would take one for the CD team and be the spokesperson, but yeah, I would need a 7 figures salary in order to be able to represent my fellow CDs the proper way! You wouldn't expect me to wear these old rags would you?

[Anthony Simon]

I think people take wearing women's clothes as a form of "feminisation" and they're afraid that men who do it won't be able to fulfil the male role properly. There's a deep concern that "being a man" is part of what makes society function and without it the whole thing can fall in. This isn't specific to the societies which we live in, but is extremely widespread (if not quite universal) through human experience.

The base idea, I think, is if the constraints on individual men are released, then others will follow - and society will become progressively "feminised" - and less able to (for example) compete aggressively in the world.

This runs on the idea on different male and female roles - as well as a construct that women can't fulfil "male" functions - and so is quite deeply mixed up with the liberation of women. The transgender National Geographic issue seems (from the blurb) to link advancement of TG rights with the advancement of women - and, I think, for good reason.

These are deep waters....

[Stephanie M]

So, about crossdresser-only support groups, they may miss on the same type of would be participants. Those who are deeply inside the closet will want to remain there. Those who are successfully "out" (At least to some degree) may not really need of a support group. And then you have of course those who may join but may realize at some point that crossdressing is only part of what they do, and they need more... So, what would you do if you were the founder of such group? tell them to stop attending the meetings? Many support groups have fallen apart just because such issues...

Yes I agree it would be like herding cats.
That's the problem with us, we are too diverse I suppose to group together formally. So many different levels and different desires it's hard to keep track.

My thoughts are if one was to evolve and decide they may be TG, they should still be welcome, but they probably would be better off moving to a TG group.

What I have in mind would be informal and instead of sitting around in a classroom or something we would meet at a safe bar or restaurant, or some public place and enjoy being dressed and do "normal things" as I described before.

You'd make a great spokesperson and from what I've seen you dress pretty well so if those are rags I can imagine what good quality stuff would look like on you.

I have a disagreement with part of your post.

The main issue society has with crossdressing is, IMHO, not the wearing of the clothes, but the behavior/simulation changes to try to look like a woman in woman's clothes, not a man in a dress

I believe both are viewed just as bad. I've seen some men's designer clothes that are feminine and the models don't wear wigs, make up, and so forth. In the comments people are having a crap fit because the clothes are "girls" clothes. Also the people of Walmart website features bearded guys in dresses and the comments towards them are just as bad. And don't forget Will Smith's son, he wears skirts without getting all dolled up and he catches hell. So IMHO a man in a dress is just as bad as, if not worse, than a man in a dress all dolled up trying to appear as a woman. And when I said bad I mean as in how society views it, not that it is bad.

[Stephanie M]

I think people take wearing women's clothes as a form of "feminisation" and they're afraid that men who do it won't be able to fulfil the male role properly. There's a deep concern that "being a man" is part of what makes society function and without it the whole thing can fall in. This isn't specific to the societies which we live in, but is extremely widespread (if not quite universal) through human experience.

The base idea, I think, is if the constraints on individual men are released, then others will follow - and society will become progressively "feminised" - and less able to (for example) compete aggressively in the world.

Yes, I agree that is a popular viewpoint. There is an assumption that somehow your pink panties under your jeans makes you weak or something.

The funny part is the founders of the USA wore clothes that no masculine man would be caught dead in today. And they were pretty tough so it's total nonsense that this makes us weak.

[Estefania]

Anthony,

Part of the problem may be that for way too many individuals, women are seen as inferior to men. They can't comprehend how a man would "degrade". (As in going down in grade) from being a "powerful male" and choose to adopt an "inferior" role. I really pity those who feel that way. Women and men are different (I can also play the part of captain obvious ) but with all same rights... yet there are still societies where they are denied the basic human rights.

In any case, if anything, I believe that by leaving prejudice behind and adopting many of so called "feminine" traits without renouncing to our already innate masculine or societal constructed ones, we can aspire to become better centered and balanced human beings. Not the caricature of a prissy, weak, damsel in distress or a macho aggressive alpha male. Just a strong, sensitive, daring, nurturing, etc etc person.

[Emily]

Interesting post, great replies too. Not sure if this relates, but way back when the SO and I would have "discussions" about my cross dressing, she would always ask "why would I want to be a woman?" She went on to explain (in a scolding type of manner) that I don't and could never understand the first thing about what it means to be a woman, I am a man and I should act like one... as a man, I don't ever have to worry about being attacked, walking home after dark... these kinds of things.

For years, these thoughts would creep into my head and I would feel resentment towards myself for wanting to dress femme. I suppose she did have a point, but fortunately for me, these thoughts are long gone... but on some level, I suppose it does beg the question how can we truly understand what it means or feels like to be a woman? Most of us will probably never know... BUT, we do know what it feels like to be a CD! We have feelings too, right? We have obviously have our own set of concerns also...

[Anthony Simon]

I think it's all about being balanced, Gabi, if one can achieve that. My view is that strength comes from inner cohesion. That is to say, if you have all the bits in you fitting together OK, then it gives you an inner strength that is manifest in how you deal with the world. It's not a gender based thing at all.

[Lacey Hadley]

Hi Lexi,

Your SO should know that facts say otherwise about being attacked and walking alone at night. Men suffer a much higher rate of being violently attacked and assaulted especially out in company or alone at night than women do.

As to knowing how it feels to be a woman? This is irrelevant unless one thinks all women think and feel the same. Fact is people are all unique to themselves and there is no such thing as knowing what it feels like to be just a woman, other than common generalities, just as that is the same with men.

Feeling feminine or masculine is a personal trait. No two feminine women feel and think all the same. Again genetic commonalities exist just as they do with men but we each feel our own feelings. Not all men are knuckle draggers and looking for a fight or to be merely ugh, ugh me man.

When I am fully dressed as Lacey, full clothes, shoes/boots, wig and makeup, I feel feminine in the way I believe in femininity is to me. My feelings and beliefs of femininity were influenced by my mother, sister, girl friends and my exwife along with pop culture while growing up. Just as my masculinity being based upon me being a genetic male were influenced by my father, brother, my best buddies growing up and pop culture.

When dressed as Lacey I feel feminine and act like my beliefs in how I would be if I were a GG. I enjoy being very feminine looking, feminine and sophisticated sexy looking clothing, shoes/boots, hair and make up wise. Many GG's may and do appear like such. Many GG's do not. But they are women just the same.

When I dress fully as Lacey I do it for myself and for my femininity and womanly ideals/beliefs. It may not be as your SO sees being a woman but it is to me, my persona and my satisfaction as being Lacey.

[AJ West]

I wear my clothes, which just so happen to be of the feminine persuasion, in public as often as I can. Does this mean I've earned the right?

[Eileen (SO)]

This discussion has confirmed how I understand the need to cross dress. More than clothing alone, the desire to appear feminine. That's why most of you tend toward flashier clothing, jewelry, and wearing heels at places most women would not. Simple jeans and blouse wouldn't satisfy a cd, but does for a tg because they feel female internally despite the clothing.

I'll never quite understand why some men need to take on a female persona. But when you do, do your best. So, wear a skirt even when it's cold and windy. You may be the only woman in a store wearing a dress and heels. At least you all are dressing your best and deserve the right to do so.

I'm enjoying the varied responses, so different and yet share a commonality.

Eileen

[Stephanie M]

way back when the SO and I would have "discussions" about my cross dressing, she would always ask "why would I want to be a woman?" She went on to explain (in a scolding type of manner) that I don't and could never understand the first thing about what it means to be a woman, I am a man and I should act like one... as a man, I don't ever have to worry about being attacked, walking home after dark... these kinds of things.

...

Sounds like her focus was on the cons of being a woman. Which is her right I suppose. There are plenty of cons of being a man as well, we all have our own crosses to bear. However she probably never could understand what it feels like to be a man with a feminine side. Frankly most people don't, I bet even most of us here don't fully understand it.

Maybe some of us spend to much time trying to analyze this and understand it fully, some of you seem to just enjoy it and not worry too much about the whys. I'm trying to not focus on the whys so much anymore but there are times when those old feelings come back and there is a civil war in my head.

Maybe if we could learn to just fully accept it without the whys maybe then we can expect the rest of the population to accept too.
Then again I think if we could fully understand it then we could explain it and that will help others accept it.

I know I tend to blame society for my negative feelings that creep in, but more than likely it's my own inner struggle that is to blame and instead of blaming me I blame society for not accepting this.

As to knowing how it feels to be a woman? This is irrelevant unless one thinks all women think and feel the same. Fact is people are all unique to themselves and there is no such thing as knowing what it feels like to be just a woman, other than common generalities, just as that is the same with men.

That is true, we have no way of knowing exactly how any other individual feels no matter the gender. And no one knows exactly what it feels like to be ourselves. Our society loves to divide people into groups and judge them based on those groups. Whether its gender, sexual orientation, religion, political beliefs, or whatever we expect everyone to conform to one of those groups so when we see an individual who doesn't fit in neatly it comes as a shock to some.

[Lacey Hadley]

Hi Eileen.

To add, IMO for a typical CDer who may endeavor to dress fully (as not all CDrs do) I want to create a feminine persona that reflects 'Lacey' as my feminine side to my typical male character. Lacey is not a different person but she is me in my mind as a female. I do not feel female inside as a TGer may, but feel a need and an urge to let my strong feminine side come out as Lacey.

Yes, in drab I can under dress in female clothes as they give me a sense of uniqueness and comfort to know I do not imprison Lacey in my mind. As a dude, Lacey and feminine thoughts lie below the surface. This at times makes me think differently than just male thoughts. If in drab I am at home and say slip on a pair of heels, I know I'm the guy that I am but the heels give me a pleasure and just a hint of that femininity inside me. This type of partial dressing helps keep me sane so to speak as I cannot and likely do not want to dress fully as Lacey at all times. It helps me keep centered as a dude but know I have a feminine side that is always there and partial dressing just feels good for these times.

When I choose to dress all out as Lacey, it requires a lot of thought and things that IMO GG's have when they decide to coordinate and pick out an outfit to dress up in. I love this part of going en femme. It's cool in my head when out and about or at work my mind will think about the next time I dress as Lacey and what I want to wear, from under garments to outer wear to which shoes or boots, what makeup and eye shadow, lipstick to wear and which wig will I put on. It's a kinship to how GG's do this. Well at least those I know/knew, my exwife notably. She would tell me often of how she had to think about her work attire as they had a dress code and she was a gal who always had to look good and feminine, also if we planned a night out she'd take time to coordinate her outfit and look. As a guy and a closet CDer, I LOVED THAT SO MUCH ABOUT HER AND HER LOOK/STYLE! So in building up to my next enfemme session it's a thrill to think about my feminine wardrobe and make up. As a dude thinking about this especially when one's mind wanders off at at work or in public or out with buddies is odd and secretly pleasurable as I know I'm likely the only guy around my circle at the time who may do this. But, hey who knows if any of my coworkers, associates and buddies may do this or not. I've worked most my life in public, how many males I associated with and done business with were also CDer's and how many may have had supportive wives/SO's? Surely odds are about 3-5+% or such

So when I move to a planned session to go fully en femme it starts hours or even a day before in planning. So it's a lot of work to especially getting my make up right and I want to be and dress very feminine, it could be girl next door cute, sophisticated look or even sexy/naughty, but always very feminine as you said, it's a driver for most CDers who dress fully to go more in the feminine, semi-formal to formal to maybe sexy look and attire as for us en femme CDing is a bit of escapism. I do not want to plan a session and just put on a t-shirt, pullover top or even a button down shirt and sweats etc. Yes, I may dress in ladies jeans or faux leather pants and not always a skirt or dress. But I will wear a cute/sexy blouse, feminine top or jacket and wear heels which could wedges or more often spikes. When I dress fully en femme I want for myself the illusion of the femininity I love when seeing well dressed or turned out and yes even sexy dressed women.

When I find it's time to take off (sometimes sadly as I may have to and not want to in the moment) this full en femme outfit as Lacey, I go back to my normal male mode of living, but enjoy the feeling and memory of just having dressed as Lacey.