Of slings and arrows...Why do people object so strongly?

[Anne Bonny]

Ok, Let's address Objective Reality. I am a Man. Even some gays, with most Men and Women object to us and I believe they object because not having anything to fill bra cups that need support, while also having male genitals that cause a bulge down there we seek to dress in clothing designed specifically to cover a female body which has narrower shoulders and arms, breasts, and internal female genitals that means there is the absence of any bulge down there. Additionally Women have a narrow waist and broader hips with larger fattier buttocks while men are pretty shapeless and straight and narrow from the waste down.

It is obvious If all of our gender was contained inside our head no one would object at all. I mean It is perfectly acceptable for me as a man to be sensitive, caring, and wanting to connect and get along with people while not being quite as aggressive as most men. Also acceptable for us to want to have our partner initiating and more in control in bed because we find "submission" or deference to our mate pleasurable and enjoyable at times. Does it matter if our mate would be at times the one to go out and "do battle" for us so that we do not have to face situations requiring confrontation? Does it make any difference if we do not mind that our partner may be or is smarter and more competent in some things, has perhaps a better degree and job and makes more money than we do? Does any of this matter as long as our partner loves us? Would any of this be obvious to others? Would people object so much about what they may just think of as part of personality?

Well I do believe women do pick up on this...and when they do they see us as worthless and unworthy as a partner for the most part. I do kind of believe my failure to make rank in the military may have been due to a combination of all of the above...every body makes 2nd Lieutenant, Lieutenant, and Captain...big whoop as long as you are doing your job competently and don't kill anybody and have a clean record...you are going to make Captain...but the Jump to field grade officer ...Major is competitive and that is where I was passed over. I did fulfill my role as a husband...did battle, took the lead in bed, and fathered two son's (Henry VIII would have been envious). I lived the role and though my wife had to beat me so to speak to get out there and be the man and do the confrontation at times as a "man" I did it. I did all the typical manly things...So. Even now I am still a sole caregiver laying down my life to care for my wife, many men would not do that I am told...but I am tender hearted and I could not live with myself otherwise, I loved my wife.
So Women if they find us "Unworthy, or worthless" because we tend to be as we are ...well they are dead wrong because I don't know about you but I believe I have been an outstanding husband and father caring for my family. True I never made Colonel like my father but I was a hard worker who was quite competent and made it to retirement and I have always been faithful to my wife even still today as she lay bedridden and as I am stuck here entering my 60's (seeing my own life being pissed away trapped here in this awful situation not able to lead a normal life at all) instead of being able to move on and find someone to be there for me into old age to carry on enjoying the last few decades of life with...I just cannot do that as long as the love of my life is in this house suffering instead of being at peace and eternal rest.

I believe Women may pick up on how we are but most people do not...what everyone strongly objects to, sees as mental illness and delusional is our desire, our love, need and wanting to wear and dress in the clothing that goes along with how a large part of who we are feels inside. We are very like woman and we really do want to wear women's clothing because we feel we are so much like women inside at times that we really are women...again as we define it. Perhaps as many women who are accepting would define it too and who would not find our appearance as not so objectionable but reasonable because of how and who we are.

I don't know what it is but though I am not currently seated here in anything feminine...inside I feel that compelling desire and want to go change... I may it is likely that I will who knows this morning....

[Lacey Hadley]

People object to those they may not understand, not just crossdressers and transgenders, but others who may not be a large part of the typical society. Add cultural and religious differences and it only amplifies such objections. So what shall we do about it? Go back and hide a part of who we are as cders or if a trans person your very self as you identify yourself? Of course we should not. But to be fair any group who is not a part of a larger society and its general thoughts can't be in your face and militant, Yes, militancy may sound a proper course at times but more often than not it only creates push back and resentment which can be very costly and toxic to the minority group who is being militant against the silent majority.

Living in any western developed nation has seen that we have legitimate legal recourse to advocate for ourselves as crossdressers and transgender persons along with any group. Most if not all western developed nations are not and do not perpetrate general systemic discrimination and where some may still have examples, these are being corrected through time and legal recourse. Rarely if at all do any of our western developed nations require militancy. There may have been times for such in our past but not so much today.

The best example of progressive and 'just' society is the United States of America. Flawed nation it is, yes but no other nation has greater fundamentals of justice and legal recourse via constitutional law than the USA. IMO too many Americans take their birth rights for granted and too many fail to see as bloated as the US system is the principles are sound though. It's peer nations in the greatest society ever created, 'the western developed world' are for most inline with many US values but none not even my Canada are superior to it in rights protection and in general societal justice.

Outside the western developed world lies about 75% of the world's nations in abject injustice, systemic racism, bigotry, misogyny homosexual abuse and transpersons abuse. Yet we tend to whine about problems we all face here in our western society. I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to any examples of injustice and prejudice in our western nations. No, we need to stand for our rights and for justice but we have legal recourse. 75% or so of the nonwestern world are just miserable societies filled with backwardness and hate. If you are a minority in these craphole nations you will suffer abject misery, abuse, imprisonment and maybe even death. NOT ONE OF THESE BACKWARDS, HATEFUL NATIONS GOVERNMENTS WILL COME TO YOUR AID!!! Yet in our still 'free' western world we see ignorant idiots bash our nations/ western society and ideals while many of them are BEGGING FOR THE IMPORT OF THESE NONWESTERN IDEALS OUT OF SOME INANE DIVERSITY! HAVE WE LOST OUR FRIGGING MINDS???

So yes no nation, no society is perfect nor will they ever be, but G dammit we have it good in the west and we have legal recourse to redress our government actions and any laws seen as unjust.

On a day to day basis we only have to talk to others especially those who may not understand and such may fear us. Explain why in our case we are crossdressers or trans persons who just want to live our lives and not be hassled, hurt and if laws are wrong not be abused by said laws while we redress them. We can't make others like us, be they women or men. We can demand they tolerate us under the law.

Some women may object to us as cders or tgers as some may think we are some competition for men in relations. Many cders and tgers look and act more feminine and polished then many western world women do today, just look around you in public and see. Some women may object to be with us as cders or tgers who desire to be with women and not men want to see and be with what they envision real men are and be in relations with these men and if still young enough build a family with. A guy who puts on a dress, wig, heels and makeup may not be that man they envision, even if their views may be ignorant. Most males who are cders are relatively normal males, many successful and in drab are just like any other dude. Many of us have an underlying softer side though and our cding shapes and enhances this.

Myself in drab am very typical as a day to day male. I am like many males think and act as any regular dude does. Yes, my femme side is always with me and it can be a good thing as it adds color and a social flavor to me. I can understand and like share girly things with women. I can give some hopeful good advice to GG's as I am still a male but have a femme side and can relate to what and why men like certain things in what and how these GG's dress and look. Most fashion designers and people in cosmetics are males even if many are gay, they are still men and know how to make women look and feel good if said women want to.

Tgers have each there own as to see, do they like women or men... Either will shape their possible relations with either gender. Myself as a cder and one who fully dresses finds FOR ME that myself fully dressed have at times a curiosity and interest about men and not just my normal feelings about women. In drab I'm 100% heterosexual. Fully enfemme I can feel bisexual ????? GO FIGURE!

As to why many males object to cders and tgers, well it may partly be due to confusion. They may think why any guy would want to weaken himself as a man in trying to dress, look and act feminine? Their mind can't compute this. A cder does not give up being a man so to speak a cder once they better understand themselves want to free their personality and feminine side. As a cder I live to balance my duality. By giving myself more peace of mind I am a better male for myself and I enjoy my femme side.

Some males may also object as they may feel an attraction to a well turned out cder or a tger and this may confuse them and anger them as they may feel gay. BUT! they are not. They are attracted to the feminine vision and personality presented via a cder and more so a tger. This should not see as gayness so to speak but they should see an attractive and alluring feminine character. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO ACT ON SAID FEELINGS IF UNCOMFORTABLE THOUGH!

I can't stop people from hating me nor not understanding why I crossdress. I can only be there to talk to them if they care to talk and to show them I am no threat. Other than that I can only implore tolerance under the law.

Living in Canada a still relatively free western nation with good basic laws I am along with any other cder, tger better off than if I lived in 75% or so of the rest of the world with all of its systemic injustice, hate, ignorance and retarded backwards cultures. Not all societies, cultures, religions and politics are equal. THE WEST (as flawed as it may be ) IS THE BEST! Any persons who argue against this truth are ignorant and virtue signaling fools. I want no part of any importing of nonwestern, backwards ideals into THE GREATEST SOCIETY MAN HAS EVER CREATED! THE WESTERN DEVELOPED WORLD!

[Anne Bonny]

Yes, I agree militancy creats backlash which does make our situation as a tiny fragment of society worse for a period of time. I think like women we do not want to be militant but to achieve acceptance peacefully over a longer period as people come to know us as individuals and perhaps through that to better understand us. Still...we are not all the same and many of us have a different view and they believe in fighting and pushing for change and recognition. I suppose it takes all of the above so that one day men like us will be seen out and working and living our lives like everybody else.

I also agree legal recourse and that discrimination in the west has over time not stood. That does not mean traditions and some will resist and object throughout our lifetime...I mean those of conservative faiths. I agree on multiculturalism being an abject failure because migrants are allowed to create isolated cells that refuse flat out to accept the culture of their new country and to assimilate to adopt the culture and values of their new country which is why multiculturalism will fail or these countries will cease to be and fall under a different form of government, different ideologies or forms of government cannot exist side by side and one side will win in the end.

Men and women do see men like ourselves as weak, but I do not believe that is true, we may be softer, but even women have strength. Unfortunately most all women internally, nearly instinctively feel a very real need for their mate to be solid and strong and are resistant beyond reason to anything else. They are resisting strongly just because, and because they just want what they feel that they want.

I admit I am attracted to Charlie Martin but still I would only I believe want her if she were born that way. https://youtu.be/hWHGS7s7ffY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; This is exactly the kind of woman I fantasize about as a man and would want.

Hooray for Western Civilization! It is in fact our home, our culture and traditions and values, our history this is where we feel at home.

[Lacey Hadley]

The link to the Charlie Martin video is cool. Yeah she's nice. There are a number of trans girls who have Youtube channels I've kind of grown interested in following. All are very cute, generally intelligent, decent persons and have transitioned well. A few of these transgirls I watch on Youtube are a bit on the SJW side but most of them I see are pretty well rounded persons with interesting life stories.

I find the transtrenders to be the trouble makers and really NUTJUB SJW's They obviously are too dumb or do not see they are hurting the real transgender and even cding community with their political and backwards social folly. These nut job, cry bully, whiner transtrenders along with militant gays and lesbians are going to have great affect in causing the relatively innocuous and for most "meh, so be it." silent majority to eventually snap back on the LGBT community and I fear the true transgenders and even as a cder a blow back that will hurt me/us.

Western society (IS THE ONLY SOCIETY) to over the 50-75-100 odd years become quite progressive and tolerant to the point for many people of said society to either not caring much of how you, I, or others live our lives as long as we are lawful and not S-disturbers to in many cases even become quite acceptable to ALT lifestyles including cding and the tger's in society. But these minority groups with their "in your face" political/social activism (BTW outside of LGBT community also includes political Islam and all this leftist/socialist/communist crap) are going to push our as typical easy going western society too far and it's going to blow back and hurt them. But I fear also it catching maybe you, me, all of us as cders and all just normal, sane trans persons who just want to live life relatively normally.

[Amanda R]

In drab I'm 100% heterosexual. Fully enfemme I can feel bisexual ????? GO FIGURE!

This is quite common amongst even heterosexual crossdressers. It is part of the "feminine aura" that CDs attempt to present. In other words I have done all this to make myself as pretty and passable ergo men should find me attractive and I should find them attractive. Most never act on the feelings however it does run through the back of their minds. In the case of the bisexual it seems totally natural and to some a way of justifying being bisexual. I am not saying anyone is or is not bisexual however it is something to think about.

Some women may object to us as cders or tgers as some may think we are some competition for men in relations. Many cders and tgers look and act more feminine and polished then many western world women do today, just look around you in public and see.

Here IMO you are way off base. Yes there may be the odd case however in most of those cases there are generally one of two issues. The first being where the female has a partner who is a closeted bisexual male who feels free to act on those tendencies with the CD as he can justify in his mind, "Well she was dressed like a woman." The other case where women see their own partner who happens to be CD and feels that "other" side of him is competition for his time and attention. As for the M2F TG you must remember they are females regardless of their physical make up. For the pre or non op this may be an issue however in the case of the post op the competition is no different than it would be with any other female.

As for saying "Many cders and tgers look and act more feminine and polished then many western world women do today" that us merely your opinion. I would suppose if you associate femininity with skirts, hose, and heels than there maybe a sliver of validity to your argument. However there is a common fallacy within the CD community that the clothes make the woman. The exact opposite is true, just ask any woman. It has been said here in many threads by many females. I can just as feminine in my sweat pants and a t-shirt wearing flip flops with no make up on and my hair pulled in a pony tail as I can be in a dress and heels. Feminine is a state of mind, an attitude, an air, a way of being, need I go on? As for CDs being more polished, well frankly I haven't a clue as to what you are trying to say there.

But these minority groups with their "in your face" political/social activism (BTW outside of LGBT community also includes political Islam and all this leftist/socialist/communist crap) are going to push our as typical easy going western society too far and it's going to blow back and hurt them.

Anyone who desires to make a point can be considered "in your face" particularly if you disagree with their viewpoint. Let us be honest television commercials, especially those where the volume is higher than the show you have been watching, are "in your face." Pop ads as you surf the net are "in your face." The pushy appliance sales person at Sears is "in your face." The used car sales person trying to tell you what a great deal this is and you shouldn't pass it up is "in your face." That is what society has created, the belief we need to tell people what to think and how to act so deal with it! If you don't like it then turn the TV off, or don't surf the net or watch the news or go to the mall or whatever! IMO the most "in your face" people are the whiners. They whine about everything yet when you tell them to stand up and take a stand they have 100's of excuses like "well what can I do?" or "no one is going to listen to me" or IMO the lamest excuse of "no one cares."

People in general resent change, they like it the way it has always been. They view any change with a fearful eye and a desire to return to the "good old days." How far back do we want to go for those "good old days?" Before cell phones? Computers? Air Conditioning? Automobiles? Indoor plumbing? Those are just some technological advancements what about social change?

From some your posts Lacey I know you want to go back to before corporate casual but what about other societal changes? The Women's Lib movement? The Civil Rights movement? Women having the right to vote? I could go on. Sadly society doesn't change just because someone stands up and asks pretty please? It comes from the efforts and sacrifices of many. They stand up, sometimes alone, and say this is not right and there is a better way! If that is what you define as "in your face" activism? I am sure back in 1776 there were people who thought of Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, etc. as "in your face" activists. Personally I for one am glad they were!

[Heather W]

Western society (IS THE ONLY SOCIETY) to over the 50-75-100 odd years become quite progressive and tolerant to the point for many people of said society to either not caring much of how you, I, or others live our lives as long as we are lawful and not S-disturbers to in many cases even become quite acceptable to ALT lifestyles including cding and the tger's in society.

What planet are you living on Lacey because it certainly isn't in this solar system. Yes the LGBT community has it better in most of "western society" that other places however it is far from where it needs to be. The discrimination is still there, more discrete in most cases, but it is there. It is in housing, employment, even simple courtesies. There are still people declaring us abominations, sinners, evil, pedophiles and other names all in the name of God or saving the children or whatever. They refuse to serve customers based on the fact it violates their religious beliefs. Landlords will lie saying a rental is no longer available or quote a higher rent to "save the children of the neighborhood." Isn't this discrimination?

The only way we will ever achieve equality and acceptance is by standing up and demanding it. Other groups have had to do this, now its our turn. Why do you feel those who are standing up and telling the world the LGBT community is people too and deserve the same as they enjoy are trouble makers and Nut Job SJW's? You are hung up on the fact we are a minority, so? Does that mean we are not entitled to the same human rights and to be treated with the same respect and dignity as the majority?

[Lacey Hadley]

Heather,


The western world has full legal and political recourse to affect change in any still standing laws and may take time to be repealed. There are many stupid, silly outdated laws on the books that luckily most go unenforced, ie: some US states still claim sodomy illegal but these laws are no longer enforced even though still on some state law books. So yes one may find existing laws that may discriminate. But no western world government passes any new laws that are systemically discriminatory to any persons let alone LGBT persons.

No nonwestern nations afford LGBT and most other minorities such recourse, none, not one. Most nonwestern nations will at minimum borderline let for example LGBT persons live if they stay quiet, in the closet so to speak and not rock boats. At worse the will arrest LGBT persons, persecute, abuse/torture and often kill them in the name of the state or by edict of cultural/religious ideology. Not one person of any minority group let alone LGBT live with said weight of fear in any western developed nation.

Yes, discrimination, bigotry, racism, and other hate exists most anywhere and everywhere in our world. Humans will be humans and not all are mature enough or sensible enough to not be such. Ignorance still exists. But again only the western developed world offers recourse under the law to affect change and fight said discrimination and hate. SJW's serve counter to any needs to affect change, SJW's are convenient stooges to string pullers who hide behind curtains and SJW's are social/political cancer in affecting a fair(er) and more just change in any existing outdated laws that may still exist.

Our western society may not be perfect, it though is the best place to be for example LGBT or any minority. Leftists, liberals, socialists, Commies, SJW's and their most often hack organizations and activist groups all work against our general justice, liberties and ability to personally better our lives. Often they wish to import hateful ideologies and people from backwards, idiotic nations and societies. They do it out of pure idiotic virtue signalling and will for many by ignorance or design wish to imprison themselves and those they support just to seek this virtue and adulation... It is a mostly sad western ideological trait of guilt and self-loathing. One I do not and will not partake in. I live in a flawed nation state in a flawed western ideology, but I live in the best society ever to grace our Earth, the western developed world.

[Diana Michelle]

You are very right there are a lot of silly laws on the books in many US states and other governmental issues that are not enforced nor should have ever been there. Yet those laws are still there and while not generally enforced they can be. Anytime the proverbial "new sheriff" rides into town he has the option and because those laws still exist the right to enforce them. If Western society has come so far in its "tolerance", your word not mine, why are these laws still around and have not been repealed? Please do not give me any song and dance about "more important issues" as if you look at the output of most state legislatures it is more about proclamations declaring the official state horse manure day or this person is so wonderful than meaningful legislation.

You heap praise on the western world and show utter disdain for everyone else in reference to LGBT rights. Israel is generally acknowledged as one of the most progressive nations concerning alternative lifestyles. Granted they do not recognize same sex marriage however that is more religious based. IMO the day will come when it is recognized but old ideas die hard. The Jewish faith is not the only religion to not permit or recognize same sex marriage. In Israel there are avenues for getting a same sex union recognized but this is for civil matters.

At worse the will arrest LGBT persons, persecute, abuse/torture and often kill them in the name of the state or by edict of cultural/religious ideology. Not one person of any minority group let alone LGBT live with said weight of fear in any western developed nation.

I am not even going to start in on the "Bathroom Bills" on this one however there is discrimination, abuse, persecution, and other fears the LGBT community lives in everyday, the same as other groups do. Yes in most cases there is some legal recourse however the application and enforcement of these laws and statutes is widely varied. I am not going to sink into a red state/blue state discussion or whatever you want to call it. However the LGBT community as well as other groups are fully aware there are places we are not as welcome as others. Many of the LGBT community are still in the closet for whatever reason. They know that an arrest for whatever questionable offense can lead to being outed even if those charges are dismissed. They understand some will turn their back to the method and location of incarceration. Imagine yourself all dressed to the nines in your skirt and heels being tossed into a holding cell with several half drunk males and the potential abuse. Honey this has and still can occur in your tolerant Western society.

Leftists, liberals, socialists, Commies, SJW's and their most often hack organizations and activist groups all work against our general justice, liberties and ability to personally better our lives.

First off without these "hack organizations" fighting for social justice Jim Crow laws would still exist, women would be looked at as second class citizens and not even have the right to vote and so on. I will grant you on any side of an issue there are the extremes that hurt the cause but these are few and far between thankfully. As for the name calling and labels, that is the problem. Society likes to put labels on everyone, makes things easier for generalizations and stereotyping. We are talking about people and individuals not the shoe boxes in your closet. Label those for your convenience not people trying to make the world a better place for all to live in.

Liberal, conservative, black, white, male, female, gay, straight, Christian, Muslim, blonde brunette or redhead, Asian, Polish, Canadian, American, and so on are all labels we like to use as it makes things easy. When you encounter someone who is different than you by physical appearance do you see the label or the person? Do you feel a twinge of fear because that group you associate with terror or violence? If you see some of a similar physical appearance to you do you feel a reassurance? Do you flash them the smile you didn't to the other person? That is the problem all of society faces. We want to label and compartmentalize. As it has been said before children see the world for its purity and innocence. They don't talk about their "black" friend or their "Asian" friend, they talk about their friends for they see through the façade to the inner person.

Think about that last sentence and how much better a world it would be if adults had that capacity. I would love to tell you I am that way but I am not perfect in the matter. I like most have been tainted by life experiences still I try to look past the label to the person. They say there are glass half full and glass half empty people in the world. I will add a third group to that, the "turn the glass upside down to make sure every drop is drained from it" group. To which group do you belong?

[Anne Bonny]

"Oy Vey..." I am not jewish but I like that expression...I am tired of politics and besides it is divisive and is not supposed to be in our little haven...here ... we should be loving on and supporting each other ... I do have my views...definitely do and I think people do know my jist...but We need to just stop this.

Let's see...slings and arrows...I was probably just angsting for the 99th time about our western civilization's Christian influence...making even agnostics who live in western civilization Christians by default in that we support western liberal values which were drawn largely from Christianity...and I may have been worried about the Theocrats who are coming in who are from outside the area of the west ... a real concern but I shot my wad too much on that and will say no more....

How we choose to deal is up to who we are inside basically...society changes very very slowly over years and years...nothing we can do about that. We will all be very old when the day comes we are all perfectly able to live our lives and go wherever we desire dressed as we will but hopefully with good taste appropriate for where we are going. That is all...bye!

[Amanda R]

I was probably just angsting for the 99th time about our western civilization's Christian influence...making even agnostics who live in western civilization Christians by default in that we support western liberal values which were drawn largely from Christianity

I would disagree with you on "western liberal values" as Christianity in today's society has leanings both ways even within certain denominations. Yes many of our beliefs and morals have their roots in the Judeo/Christian teachings such as "Thou shall not kill", "Honor thy father and mother" and so on. Still there are many Christian religions that accept and even welcome individuals with alternative lifestyles yet many others shun them calling them deplorable and sinners. It is not about Christianity but rather how one interrupts the teachings and decides to accept or reject them.

Much of what we call bigotry and hatred is a function of environment. It is about friends and family, co-workers, where we live, social status, and yes religion. We are all individuals capable of thought and drawing our conclusions from our environment and what we are taught and told. For many it is easier to go along than stand up and be different. The interesting thing is people's opinions change. They change for a multitude of reasons however generally it can be traced to a single life event, both good and bad. There was a thread here about am Adventist pastor who had been taught that transgenderism was morally wrong. Then his son came out and after some soul searching the pastor and his wife learned to accept their now daughter. People change as circumstances do.

http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... 40&t=17996