Why are we not identical to women our physical bodies aside?

[DonnaT]

Mostly, it is due to how some are raised (Nature v. Nurture).

Many who transition are (nearly) identical to women (assigned at birth), mentally. Thus, for some, the reason for transitioning; the, for some, reason for insisting, as toddlers, they are girls, not boys.

[Anne Bonny]

Gee, Quite true Annie and Diana... My knowledge of the ancient biblical texts comes from having read them and thought about them quite a bit throughout my life. At one time about age 17 I felt I was "born again" on reading Ephesians 2:8-9...In college I felt I was nondenominational. Later I moved to the Episcopal church and was confirmed, My only grandmother and grandfather were catholic my genetic grandparents were long gone by the time I came along and I remember going with my grandmother to take groceries to the father's residence down the street from her small neighborhood grocery store (in the days before there were quick stops). Later I moved on to Presbyterian Calvinism and was selected as a Deacon! But really my science background would never allow me more than a rationalization of belief, the earth is 25 billion years old, the Big Bang, Evolution, the evolution of species including man and my European DNA carries neanderthal genetics which helps my immune system to function better.... Yes Those who collected myths in their region of the world and collated them along with their personal beliefs as "Inspired revelation" set in ink what ancient men thought. Later when the texts were being "screened" so that a set of books meeting a set standard were included or excluded from the library or "Bible" and at first those translating were Catholic, later Protestants took a harder look and weeded out the Apocrypha... Translations are subject to error due to meanings differing between languages. Time and cultures are so remote trying to determine meanings, connotations, ascribed in a certain place and time can be very different to those who believe they understand what is written in our day and time. There were no tape recordings of what anyone stated, stories were written down from feeble memories 50 or more years later..."Yeah...Jesus said something like this...or yeah I do remember exactly that being said..."

Sorry I mentioned this particular religion, or any religion because I am an agnostic...I am not for or against any religion, I respect everyone's right to believe whatever helps them to feel most comfortable if it is a crutch against the harsh realities of living, or in facing death and dying fine. I am impartial, I simply base my life on what is and what can definitely be known and verified...and it comes down to a philosophy called "rational objectivism" We confront reality and deal with whatever comes managing it all to achieve the best possible outcome for ourselves. We have human nature and we learn our life is much better If we strive to be our best self. It is common sense. Religion is basically a Master - Slave Relationship in which the master - the deity - states the bad part of your human nature is "sin" and unless you repent and bow down and serve me you are going to be separated and suffer when you die. Meanwhile in this life you are to make yourself absolutely nothing, not take credit for anything, and are to give all of yourself in my service to others down to washing and kissing other people's feet and if you do this you will be rewarded after you are dead but not in this world which is to be only suffering and misery. Well... The religious have not cornered the market on morality, or being a good person...we are perfectly able to be all that on our own, standing 10 feet tall not bowed down with guilt needing repentence from the religious concept of "sin" it is common sense we will strive to be our better selves already without all of that so that we will enjoy life free of negative consequences of Jail time, and social isolation etc that come from following the worse part of human nature. Of course, some with a criminal or selfish bent follow the worst part of their human nature and suffer for it.

Sermonett over

I am who I happen to be...

[Diana Michelle]

I do not want to turn this into a deep philosophical discussion on religion though I am not sure it hasn't or at least come very close to being one. However there are a few points I feel need commenting on. First off I should say I only raised the point of my being Catholic in reference to my understanding of the Bible and how it is used or not within various Christian religions. One only needs look at the Mormon religion which though Christian is more based on the writings of Joseph Smith than the Bible as I understand it.

I am not going to get into a debate of your inference of a relationship between God and a believer as similar to a master slave relationship. I feel nowhere even close to that and I am sure most Christians feel similarly to me. I will say that relationship is very personal to me and although not the sole guiding light in my life to me it is a highly important one. I will add though through the darker times in my life that relationship gave me hope and the resolve to keep going.

My first husband was a physician and my second an engineer so both were highly schooled in the sciences yet both in their own way religious. My first husband was not a fan of organized religions, many times saying it was the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity, yet he and I considered him a good Christian. Still he understood what my faith meant to me and respected that even many times going to mass with me. My second husband was Catholic and while faithful he had questions about some of the teachings of the church. I should say here I do as well though not necessarily all the same ones.

I bring all of this up because being schooled in the sciences to both of them it was just an idea until it could be "proven." That said neither believed just because a hypothesis couldn't be proven made it wrong. Like the Theory of Relatively which as I understand has yet to be officially proven there are some concepts we can not prove or disprove, the existence of a God is one of those. Like any unproven concept it is not right or wrong and you are free to feel as you desire however to attempt to blame issues with society or anything on God is just wrong. Like with many ills we face today let us set aside the rhetoric and hyperbole and seek the core problem and solve it from there rather than looking for excuses or to place blame.

I am a bit confused about your comment of how religion does not have a monopoly on morality or being a good person. Most of what we abide by and accept as a moral code in the US as well as most of what is called the civilized world has its roots in Judeo Christian principles. Even most countries where neither Judaism or Christianity is the majority religion follow the ideas of "Thou shall not kill" or "Thou shall not steal" or even "Honor thy father and mother" and others spelled out in the Ten Commandments. I suppose one could argue regardless of being atheist, agnostic, or whatever religious leaning these are basics tenets of humanity however difficult to argue their origins.

As I said earlier rather than looking for excuses or to place blame be it on religion, politics, genders, or just simply the other "guy" let us all take a step back and take a deep breath. First off the issue is not religion or politics or whatever but rather how people interpret it. Secondly this need to retreat to our respective corners to huddle with those of like beliefs and hurl barbs and stones at each other is not solving anything. That will only come when we meet in the middle for open and honest discourse respecting each other and attempting to see the other's side whether we agree with it or not. Finally like or not we are all here together and if we have any hopes of preserving what is left of mankind we need to come together for it is in numbers strength and answers lie. I am reminded of a quote from the late Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: "We may have all come on different ships but we are in the same boat now."

[Anne Bonny]

I do respect everyone's right to believe whatever brings comfort to them. I am not for or against religious belief, just as my position is worthy of respect.
Religion citing some of the better part of human nature and codifying some of the better part of it as law does not mean they originated what is held in common as good.

Ancient philosophers also arrived independently at such ideas as the good, and living a good life...Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Confucius and buda in the east.

It is true that dogmatic belief, right or wrong has mindlessly been used to make rigid claims that have heavily influenced our culture and absolutely has been used to persecute any who lie beyond the limits of what religion accepts. And interneicine attacks and hatred of any marked as evil sinners like any of our community is beyond question...at least by mainline denominations. There are only fringe denominations who are willing to accept members of our community into their fold... that's fine...I am an agnostic doesn't matter to me what they choose to believe or not long as they have no right to force me to live according to their precepts the strictures of their belief system. We are free to live our lives supposedly within certain limits long as we do not harm any one of our fellow citizens in this country.

I do know individual believers who accept me personally but get right down to it the leaders and ardent believers in their churches absolutely would not....hate the sin...love the sinner...long as we can ultimately be persuaded to repent from our "deviant and perverse behavior" and come into the fold as straight masculine men...if male genetically...or straight feminine women if they are female genetically that's what they're all about...otherwise were destined for separation in their afterlife beliefs. They will forever deny this is who we are but insist this is something sinful that we do.

Peace...I absolutely do not object to your personal beliefs if they help you to make sense of your world and bring you comfort though based on belief and faith alone long as they do not interfere in my freedom to live my life freely.

[Anne Bonny]

I apologize for talking about religion but it does have a very real impact on our society, and our culture. It has been stated that If you live in the west then you are Christian by default or live in a society who's values and concepts are drawn from Judeo-Christian religion... I do like to think, turn things over and find new perspectives looking at what is, from different angles. I argue that the values are not owned by or original to Christianity they flow out of the better part of human nature. Sin is a religious concept and is the hook used to say the bad part of human nature is sin, and because we all express the worse part of our human nature at times to one extent or the other ...what does Christianity say about us? That we are perpetually evil conceived in sin etc and that sets up a need to repent and ask forgiveness of the diety... I am just stating a fact that human nature is human nature, there is no such thing as "sin" only people acting on the worse part of their nature and that consequences do exist aside from religion...Jail, Isolation, and so forth. Fortunately most everyone can see it makes common sense to do better in the future going forward because we cannot fix what is in the past. Most strive to be their best self on their own because it is common sense to do so we are rewarded for it. There is therefore no need for the entire artificial construct set up by Religion. There are a few of a more criminal bent who do not but fortunately the rest of us enforce consequences by various measures.

Religion even other middle eastern ones Islam, Judaism, christianity seek to demand that even non adherents must abide buy the strictures of their belief system...Our society and culture has been heavily influenced by the dogma of religion...and that is why there are haters out there screaming at us because we disagree and do not live by the strictures of their faith.

Blame God? Hum...Men wrote these religions and put these words in the mouth of the diety of their imagination.... But I do not believe or disbelieve in God or that these men were truly inspired or not...who knows!? I don't and I do maintain an open mind but believe that door will always remain open because any proof will never come. By all means I do respect your beliefs and your faith...there certainly being not one shred of proof nor will there ever be any and that is acknowledged in these texts...you are "saved" through faith alone. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

With this I will apologize and remain silent other than any further need to respond. Sorry.... I like everyone here.

[Diana Michelle]

With this I will apologize and remain silent other than any further need to respond. Sorry.... I like everyone here.

Let us start here, definitely not Anne. Please keep posting your thoughts and beliefs. As I and others have said when it comes to beliefs and opinions there is no right or wrong just how you feel. Some of your more recent posts have invoked more responses than I have seen here in quite a while and I for one find that refreshing. We all need to be open to hearing all sides of a story before coming to our own views on it. If all we listen to is those of like beliefs how can we even pretend to view the world as a whole? Personally I don't need to have someone tell me how to think, I am perfectly capable of that myself.

One point you may want to consider. With your background as an RN and the military you tend to see things in black and white. I am not criticizing but rather pointing it out for thought. I see that trait in many with backgrounds in science or technical based professions as well as those with military backgrounds.

IMO life is rarely black or white but rather shades of gray. As we have discussed here there is no absolute truth on many subjects. Yes there are many out there who purport to tell you "the whole truth" but I think you will agree whatever side they see life from is where that alleged truth lies. Even those trash rags that call themselves news you see lining the grocery store check out lines splice in just enough slivers of fact to make you believe or at least attempt to make you believe Jackie Kennedy had an affair with an alien while she was First Lady.

[Annie]

Anne,
This has been a great thread and a lot of thought appears to have gone into the responses I have read here. I see no reason for you to apologize for speaking how you feel. That is the great feature of this site! I have learned a lot and been forced to think becuase of your posts. The free flow of thoughts, feelings, and questions are what keep me coming back. You have been more help than I could ever tell you.
Don't shy away from that!

[Anne Bonny]

awe...Thanks ladies.... Black and White...yes, I try to sort things out I suppose in searching for some new angle on different things. I write a lot...yeah. I am aware things are not always black or white but I suppose I do have that tendency and do absolutely need to guard against stereotypes, and labels and simplistic thinking. It is hard to divine certainty out of the mists and the grey areas I know there are limits that I have intellectually...I am advanced in my mind but many many excell well beyond my limits with their minds. But I do enjoy thinking because setting it down, re reading it and listening to others here has helped me make tremendous progress to the point...well...At Regis just yesterday as a matter of fact. I am perfectly comfortable discussing who I am right there within earshot of other people ... why not!? This is who I am after all. I sit here this morning in my dress and high heeled sandals with my dangling ear rings and lipstick because it is what I wanted this morning ... I really needed to feel my inner female and to be here...Inappropriate dress for around the house!? No, it's not...we are perfectly free to express ourselves and to wear whatever we desire in our heart and this is what is making me feel happy and feminine this morning. I feel happy and fulfilled as a woman! My hairdresser Howard is a gay man, he knows I am hetero, and that is OK. I told him quite openly there at the register in front of other women that we are of the same community (LGBT). Why shouldn't I feeling as I do inside not have a right to want a woman to be strong for me and take the lead when that is what I am desiring? ...Is that why people object!? Does it bother other people that we disturb the atmospheric cultural setting and cause ripples in the firmament around us!? What business is any of who we are and how we look or how we feel inside to anyone but to ourselves inside and those who may be around us who love us!? So my partner may be the one admiring my legs, opening the car door and then taking the wheel to speed us away her hand upon my knee!? Other times everything can be 180 degrees in the opposite direction...I really do love women who are pretty and feminine too and I am also in my inner man there as well... This all comes and goes and why should anybody object...

I did have my hair CUT!!!! It is now like women sporting a feminine version of a male hair style but fluffed out and feminine, precise and neat. My oldest sister will be here later this week - gaw I wish that she knew, I wish I knew that I could tell her and that she would fully get it and accept it and we would be even closer and fine...sadly I know that I have to bury all signs of Anne from her senses...could be the dimples in my ear lobes may ... who knows. I will have to give a plausible lie of misdirection to explain any comment away and hope I don't have to say...OK...drop it! Pat died...I was depressed and wanted to try something different and edgy like Ringo Starr... but decided it wasn't a look I would carry off every day or just anywhere...perhaps at the beach? Sigh... Oh well.

Our goal here is for everyone who comes here to our site to find support. We want to help everyone here find self acceptance and certainty about who they are as a matter of fact. We hope that they will be able to find comfort so that they can achieve and find where they want to be. I have achieved full and comfortable, matter of fact acceptance of exactly who I happen to be! But even that is not enough...because I want to have a loving female partner who fully gets it and loves me no matter where I happen to be...And ultimately...I want to be on a roof top before the entire world screaming loudly through a megaphone that this is who I am! I want to be 100% out in the open publicly and fully comfortable going anywhere and everywhere openly with full confidence before everyone everywhere so that Anne is able to be as perfectly open and free inside as George is! I hate that I must hide who I am when I am with the ladies in our local social group...knowing the chance is very great if I do find a woman who likes me they will run the minute they here me say who I am inside.

Sex Change!? That is a question I can never answer...it is something balanced on a razor's edge because I cannot be both Anne and female and at the same time George and male... the physical sexual appearance outwardly of my body can only be one or the other. Inside I am able to move easily and effortlessly between male and female wherever my inner person happens to be, but sex is a fixed thing and my genetics resulted in my body being male. I wish I could as easily move back and forth but morphing is not possible for us. I do not know where I will ultimately find the greatest comfort for who I am...for now all of that is just an open potential possibility that could prove extremely arduous in terms of time, work, commitment and money... Can we ever find our ultimate satisfaction? I don't know...for myself but I do know many have through transition, and that many others find they are fine wherever they have always been by chance of birth. After a lifetime of wonder...I am still wandering and searching.

I think I will make a guess...that because I do love women as they are...and because I am male and am at times "there" it is likely that I should not seek a transition. I think, I am thin, and fit, I have longer hair, pierced ears, groom my brows and shave my legs and even grow my nails a bit long for a man, and I do paint or have my nails painted from time to time. I have forms...I think I could have my facial hair removed via lazer I never have had a beard or mustache and never plan too, I hate having to shave every morning only to begin to have stubble in the afternoon... that too can be done...Hormones would be too far it would be a place I should not go, as it would most likely make me impotent and unable to perform as a male who is heterosexual. But ... Yeah I will consider for now unless I really find as time goes on I live mostly as a woman full time that I am where I should be. At this time I live more as a male but If I had the right person there to encourage me and to build my confidence that could change, I don't know. I think for now I am where I should be.