What are we as Cross-Dressers?

Tea Cake · Post by **Tea Cake** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:49 am

One of my favorite things about this thread was being reminded of Joseph Cambell's writings on comparative mythology( Thanks CJ!). In the eighties when I had left home and began to travel some, I stumbled on Masks of God and Hero with a Thousand Faces----and sought out more of his books too. Before I begin to sound like a book-club let me add that while the style of those books were great---the really EXCITING part of it for me was realizing that we live in just one slice of the hemisphere...but EVERYWHERE in the world are traditional stories that point towards realization as it is recorded by thousands of years of tales. The metaphors--the plots--sometimes quite close to eachother---I also like the thought that the truths in these stories come a little hidden...that that's part of self-discovery.

The reason I bring this up is because I'd like to add a link to this thread.
It describes suprising varience in a culture's acceptence of TG'd spirits---and a spiritual role they play there.

www.insideindonesia.org/edit66/bissu2.htm

---several posts have questioned wether a more mainstream acceptence of gender-crossing might have somehow changed our paths.The link decribes one culture that has and adds a twist: A FIFTH GENDER

I suppose more than the actual details in the link, what I'd like to add is that there is something behind our eyes that we share with human-experiences all over the world ----sometimes in unlikely places and with people whose names we can't even pronounce.

Somehow this thought helps me more gently forgive our culture---for losing parts of itself in a luxury based economy.---the world IS out there with lots of different ways to live, and the world can be here too with a free-mind.

Somehow when I begin to click on and read all of your wonderful thoughts ----it does all seem possible---finding one's way.

I think our CDing is part of it. Points to it.

Thanks for the company--GOOD NIGHT!

---

Tea-cake

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:56 am

Aislin wrote:Bernice,

Look deep within your self, can you tell us what you see?

Bernice, it really doesn't matter how well you write. All that matters is that you speak from the heart. I have found, since joining this forum, that just the act of writing what I feel raises my self awareness and focuses my view.

Bernice wrote:Imagine that GOD had asked you to make a short list of the brightest, most beautiful, most loving and supportive people in the entire world. Then a moment later you suddenly discovered they had accepted you into their group with loving arms. Whoaa! All I did was make a short list. I never meant to imply that I was worthy of such magnificent company!

That you can write such a statement proves your worth. You are one of us.

Aislin, your language suits you and your poetry is beautiful. Please don't change a thing. If this thread has touched you as you say, then it has been worth every word. You are welcome. It certainly has had an impact on my life and I thank you all.

Bonnie, I completely understand. We all have lives outside this forum. I was simply attempting to prompt others to add their views as it is that diversity that makes topics such as this so thought provoking.

Tea-cake, I just read that article. I simply cannot find the words to express what I am feeling right now... Thank you!

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:21 pm

Hi all,

One observation about the results of this thread, is that I don't think any one of us here is going to walk away from this the same persons we were.
So it is yet another progression into a new chapter of life for me. And that can not be any thing else but healthy in my opinion. And that in its self helps to make this place a healthy forum.

Hopefully for ever onward.

Aislin · Post by **Aislin** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:44 pm

Darlene,

Right ON!!!

Virginia · Post by **Virginia** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:48 pm

That's my SIS!!!!!!
Girl Power!!

Bernice · Post by **Bernice** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:37 pm

Aislin wrote:Bernice,

Look deep within your self, can you tell us what you see?

TO be really honest? I see a person of only slightly higher than average intelligence, an under-achiever, who wants to be a good person, trustworthy, loyal, and funny, and who desperately wants to be accepted, but who so often forgetfully puts honesty above diplomacy and politics, to my own peril.

I do love myself, but I am especially troubled when I encounter people who seem to genuinely hate me. Most of the people who do so don't really even know me. Currently I am hated by my own brother, for reasons as yet unexplained to me, apparently only because of slanderous accusations by his ex-wife. I am not even offered a chance to defend myself.

So, lest you think that I am a good person - apparently the world is far from unanimous on that issue. The jury is still out. There are (figurative) skeletons in my closet.

I doubt my problems can give anyone else insight into their own lives, except perhaps to highlight that we must face life even when it is clearly not fair, and we must be able to search our conscience with the ability to accept the possibility that we can be and are OK, despite what people say or think.

Hugs,

Bernice

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:23 am

Bernice,

I too was hated by my family except for one sister, both her and I were the black sheep of the family, me more than her. We both have moved on now and no longer communicate with them, and are much happier because of it.

Bernice when some one hates you like that not giving you a chance to understand why or an opportunity to try and do something about it. (without a doubt)There are skeletons in there closet. They are not the kind of people to build ones life around.

We can't choose our relatives but we can choose our friends. Being family does not give one a free ticket to crap on each other. I know it is a hard thing to go through, but please don't try to prove yourself to some one who will never give you a chance.

Thank you for sharing that with us Hon.

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:19 am

Hi Bernice,

I just want to share with you some rules I developed for myself many years ago. These are very loosely based on Asimov's laws of robotics:

1) I shall not, through any action or inaction allow myself to come to harm, physically, mentally or emotionally.

2) I shall not, through any action or inaction allow my family to come to harm, physically, mentally, or emotionally except where such may violate rule 1.

3) I shall not, through any action or inaction allow my friends to come to harm, physically, mentally or emotionally except where such may violate rules 1 and/or 2.

4) Everyone else can take care of themselves including my employer.

Now, some may think me selfish for placing myself above everyone else. Well, if I am suffering from some physical, mental or emotional problem or allowing someone else's problem to affect me in a negative way, then I am going to be unable to effectively help my family or anyone else.

As much as I love my family and friends, I just can't allow their problems to stand in the way of my own health and happiness. Now, sometimes that's a judgement call. It is sometimes necessary to make a short term sacrifice for the long term benefit of everyone.

So, I have to agree 100% with Darlene. While I hate to see anyone forced to shun a family member, it is your brother who has the problem, not you. And you should not allow his problem to stop you from living your life to the fullest.

If you should have to come into contact with him, just be yourself. Remain cordial and maintain a positive attitude toward him. Don't allow his problem to take you down to his level. If you can do that, perhaps, one day, he may get over whatever is bothering him. If not, well, that's his problem, not yours.

Bernice wrote:I see a person of only slightly higher than average intelligence, an under-achiever, who wants to be a good person, ... but who so often forgetfully puts honesty above diplomacy and politics, to my own peril.

In my humble opinion, honesty is always the best policy. Whoever came up with the concept of "politically correct", should have been hung upside down by his toes with his face resting on a nest of fire ants! Anyone who can't handle honesty needs therapy and I have little sympathy for them if they refuse to seek help and go on whining about how unfair life is.

So, go forth and be honest.

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:56 pm

Hi to All--
I was finally able to print out this whole thread, so I can actually read it. But one statement caught me.

Darlene says:
"How is it possible for us to say that there is nothing wrong with crossdressing, when we see how it hurts some of our SOs.."

My apologies to all who have gone on to comment on this; I've only been able to read about two pages of the four. But something comes to mind here.

It's not "wrong" to experience a sudden conversion to a new religion, and yet it is often a very distressing thing for the family and friends of the new convert. They suddenly find themselves outsiders.

We all probably know someone who has done this, and they become different people. Even if their new religion or philosophy is a tolerate one, they often find that they can't see eye-to-eye with spouses, friends, and family any more. They can go through some very painful separations. I've lost friends in this manner, and I've seen the strain it can put on family, in my own family

But back to my point--a religious conversion is socially approved, and not considered "wrong"--and yet it often creates havoc in the lives of those who have to deal with it. It is NOT necessarily something most people want to see happen to someone close to them.

Wait a minute, you say. Wouldn't a spouse be happy that her husband had found a way of life that works for him? And I'd say, no, not in the short term. In the short term, it can create more separation than togethernss. The husband is suddenly a stranger! Just like a newly-liberated crossdresser, a new convert often goes to extremes with their new beliefs and feelings. People feel threatened by extreme viewpoints that they can't share right away.

In the long term, people can concede that there's benefits to being around a person with a strong spiritual life. And the same thing can happen with CDing--over the long term, some spouses get benefits from it, too.

I'm not sayin we're all fanatics about our CDing. I want to point out that even things that are considered beneficial by most people (i.e. a workable spiritual life) are not necessarily wonderful when they first make an appearance.
A

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:35 pm

Hi Anita,

While you have provided some very good food for thought here, Does that apply to those SOs Who were told at the beginning of the relationship, yet after years of struggling with this issue still brings confusion to their lives?

You stated that; It's not "wrong" to experience a sudden conversion to a new religion, and yet it is often a very distressing thing for the family and friends of the new convert. They suddenly find themselves outsiders.

The difference that I see between that and our situation is that the other party has the option of experiencing the same thing, eventually coming to a place where they have some common ground with shared interests and feelings. Where it is impossible for a SO who isn't gender gifted to ever fully understand, and experience what we as cross-dressers experience from our activity.

They can only become a receiver (of the benefits) from our gift, and never a contributer. This can only serve to put them in a one down position, placing them in an indebted position, where they are unable to return the favor, that some of us are able to give them. The only option they have is to accommodate us, by helping us with our hobby so that we can in turn be the heroes.

What I am attempting to say here is put the ball on the other foot. Imagine a situation where your wife is the superior, and needs you to help her be that Superior person to you, but you are unable to ever reach a point where you can feel equal to her.

Contrary to what is often suggested here all women do not have these same qualities that we feel are so important (and they are) but if by being gender gifted we are able to be more understanding of women and there needs, what will it take for a woman to become more understanding of men and there needs? In my opinion the only chance for a woman to feel as though she is equal., is to be able to get to a point that she becomes equally knowledgeable of the needs of her partner, so that she can be a contributor as well as a receiver.

If by being a cross-dresser helps us understand them, what do they need to help them understand us?

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:42 pm

Hi All,

Thank you Anita for bringing out an interesting topic to unravel within this thread.

I actually rather enjoyed your analogy as it made a certain kind of sense to me.

I also think it would be interesting if some of the SOs would weigh in on this question. I'd really like to get their perspective here.

I guess the problem I have with Darlene's argument is, does crossdressing really help us understand what it is to be a woman? Or, does it simply help us to understand the feelings that are present in all people regardless of sex or gender?

I just finished reading Danielle's thread about "Normal vs. Abnormal". I must say you folks were into some interesting topics long before I joined.

Anyway, I still don't see that there is anything wrong with dressing per se. I think much of the "hurt" that the SOs feel is brought about by anxiety which is fueled from their having been immersed, from birth, in society's definitions of "Normal vs. Abnormal".

If we consider all of the "hurt" we put ourselves through during our early years of being immersed in those same definitions and yet, knowing that we felt better in panties instead of briefs. Is that not analagous to what the SOs are feeling when we spring our "avocation" on them? Only we have had years to work on our own feelings. And some of us, myself included, are still trying to sort it all out.

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:23 pm

Hi Kathy,

You stated that; I guess the problem I have with Darlene's argument is, does cross - dressing really help us understand what it is to be a woman? Or, does it simply help us to understand the feelings that are present in all people regardless of sex or gender?

I did not intended to imply that cross-dressing helps us understand what it is to be a woman, (as I have stated in other posts of mine I believe that is impossible) Rather that cross-dressing along with education from some of the SOs here has helped me to better understand how to meet the needs of women.

I guess I don't think that understanding the feelings that are present in all people, helps us meet the needs of the opposite sex.

I am actually headed some where else with this conversation, but won't go there until the conversation gets there if it dose. What I am attempting to do here is lead the conversation in that direction. So if I am not all that clear, it is because I am writing from a larger picture. Sorry for any confusion this may cause.

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:32 pm

Ah, that does put a different spin on it, thank you for clarifying.

I will re-read your post in that context and get back to you.

JoAnn · Post by **JoAnn** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:41 pm

If I could throw my 2 cents in here....imho... gender definds the person. Crosdressing can be used so many ways, from just fulfilling a fetish, or as a means to an end, or it can be the final part of a fulfillment of character.

It is becoming more apparent and backed by scientific research, that gender is defined very early on within the brain. But there can be a long line along where we fit in the gender spectrum. Maybe it can be defined by percentages? I think this may explain why so many of us are never 100% one way or another.....we all fit somewhere in-between, depending on how strong our gender identity leans.

Am I making any sense here?

huggs,

JoAnn

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:40 pm

Thanks for joining the discussion JoAnn,

You stated that; Cross-dressing can be used so many ways, from just fulfilling a fetish, or as a means to an end, or it can be the final part of a fulfillment of character.

I think I have experienced going thorough all of the above, in stages.