What are we as Cross-Dressers?

[Tea Cake]

Jo Ann I think you make lots of sense, I like that thought on describing gender as measurable by degree. I believe ---at least in myself---that the degrees cycle in some kind of pattern--though I'm just begining to try and understand this.
I also like how you point out that CDing can fufill different ends. Don't get me wrong I LOVE DRESSING UP AND SHOPPING TOO--and must admit that it all begin by manifesting as a fetish when I was SOOOO young I didn't even kbnow what a fetish was. but I think especially to one living with an SO it would be important to harness up that fufilment of character in a TANGIBLE way. ---I'm so glad to be a part of this forum---I see this place as tangible in that way---though other ways---making that compassionate and accepting energy a REAL part of our lives ---adding light to the sum of light --with that --might not only calm our own little-tensions---but those of an SO as well who maybe doesn't understand that beautiful and free feeling we can get when we focus on dressing up.---lots of beautiful-fashionable people need to feel something MORE THAN JUST LOOKING GOOD---why should we be any different? We can choose to elevate our focus. Anyone can.
One quick thought on Anita's post: I'm with Kathy---that comparison communicates very well to my style of thinking---I would add that the tough part of ANY relationship(SO-FAMILY-FRIENDS) is feeling like you have the space to change and grow. Sometimes into an opposite point of view on things as years go by. Few things are as frustrating as someone else telling you HOW YOU ARE--or WHO YOU ARE based on the past. We're all needing the space to change and grow and be accepted for <<who we are--on our way to who we will become>>------thanks for all your thoughts and to dear Darlene I ask--" I can't stand suprises! Where would you steer this thread!!??!!

You started a great conversation here and I can't wait to listen more------bye! Tea-cake

[Bernice]

But there can be a long line along where we fit in the gender spectrum. Maybe it can be defined by percentages? I think this may explain why so many of us are never 100% one way or another.....we all fit somewhere in-between, depending on how strong our gender identity leans.

Am I making any sense here?

Another deep dark secret to reveal here for the first time. I was a Boy Scout, generations ago. An adult leader shared a tent with me one night. Don't panic - no reason to sue anyone or think ill of the organization - There was no improper physical contact, but there was a frank and private discussion about this very subject. I was way too young to pick up on the fact that he may have been coming out to me about his own gender identity. I thought he made a lot of sense at the time, and now I really understand. I think he was very wise, even though he took a big risk even bringing the subject up with me. Like almost any other human characteristic, if we knew how to measure this one, I expect we would see a Bell curve.

Thanks for reminding me of this, JoAnn. Of course you make sense.

Hugs,

Bernice[/i]

[Kathy]

Hi All,again

Darlene, first, I'm not sure I understand how crossdressing helps understand how to meet the needs of a woman. I can certainly understand how education from the SOs here can do that. After all they are women. That is called communication.

From my perspective, it matters not a whit whether a man is a crossdresser or not. There is only one possible way to learn how to meet the needs his SO. That is open, honest, no secrets, no taboos communication between those two people. At least that is the ideal. Not many couples actually reach that level but the ones with the most successful relationships are the ones that are closest to that ideal.

And, from the posts I have read here from both CD'rs and SOs, it seems that crossdressing adds more of a complication to that communication than a benefit. That complication being that very few of us completely understand our own feelings in regard to our crossdressing. Some are farther along than others. A few have reached that stage where they are totally at ease with who they are. And to them, I salute you.

So, trying to communicate our feelings to our mates, when having so much difficulty explaining to ourselves, is something of a challenge.

You mentioned something to the effect that our SOs would be the beneficiaries of our "gift". I take it that you are refering to our knowledge of how to meet their needs? Again, I need you to explain your view of that. OTOH, you also mention that the SO has nothing to give back. There I beg to differ. What the SO has to give back is compassion.

The process of trying to elucidate our feelings to our SOs is very much like what I experience trying to do the same in these posts. The more I attempt to explain how and what I feel, the more in touch with those feelings I become. The clearer my vision gets. Having an SO with the compassion to listen and try to understand would be very beneficial to me.

My gift to her would be my own sense of compassion to sit and listen to her as she attempted to explain her feelings to me. It is through that process and that process alone that we learn what each other's needs are and how to meet them.

I get the impression, from their posts, that is exactly how Deborah, and JoAnn feel in their counselling sessions. I look forward to getting their comments on this.

[Virginia]

Kathy,
Well girl that was from the heart!!! Beautifully stated. As I have stated , dressing to me is secondary to the female intuition that Deborah has given me. As for knowing what my SO wants, we are making progress in that area in counseling - my crossdressing does not come up very often now, it is simply getting my SO to express herself and what she wants. In the previous 26 years of our marriage, she just "went with the flow." it was like a decision had to be made and for her part is was "I don't care" or "whatever you think." She did not participate but when it was over I get criticized for not doing it right! We are working on getting her to participate more in the decision making.
This "gift" as I have expressed, and my interpretation of Carl Jung's Anima Theory is simply the Golden Rule. Love, compassion, empathy, caring, the traits that most of us want in the women that we have relationships with. Deborah is teaching me how to use and express these feelings and it is doing wonders in how I feel about myself and it is helping my family realtionships as well.
Thanks, Kathy for being there.
Love ya,
Deborah

[Loretta Ann]

Thanks for your response Kathy,

Responding to; You mentioned something to the effect that our SOs would be the beneficiaries of our "gift". I take it that you are referring to our knowledge of how to meet their needs? Again, I need you to explain your view of that. OTOH, you also mention that the SO has nothing to give back. There I beg to differ. What the SO has to give back is compassion.

Being as not all CD-ers have the knowledge of how to meet their needs. I guess I am referring to our perceived assumption that CD-ers are better people, and therefore are able to meet there needs. It is this perceived assumption that I wish to challenge,

Not all, but many CD-ers believe that we are so much better than those who do not have our gift, and if that is true then we must see our selves as heros, and if that is true what do women have that could make them so much better than other women so that they could return the favor. That is where the inequality comes in. If they don't have that, then it puts them in a situation where, where they are indebted for as long as the relationship exists.

While compassion is a necessary requirement, I need more than that to meet my needs,

Responding to; My gift to her would be my own sense of compassion to sit and listen to her as she attempted to explain her feelings to me. It is through that process and that process alone that we learn what each other's needs are and how to meet them.

According to what the women have said in the following thread I have to disagree.
http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... nknown+sos

Responding to; I'm not sure I understand how cross-dressing helps understand how to meet the needs of a woman.

Cross-dressing helps me meet the needs of women (and others) because Cross-dressing helps me love myself, and unless one is loved they have nothing worth while to give. Certainly I would not want to depend on what one is not loved has to offer.

[Kathy]

Hi Darlene,

You certainly do have a way of placing some delicious food for thought on the table.

Not all, but many CD-ers believe that we are so much better than those who do not have our gift, and if that is true then we must see our selves as heros, and if that is true what do women have that could make them so much better than other women so that they could return the favor. That is where the inequality comes in. If they don't have that, then it puts them in a situation where, where they are indebted for as long as the relationship exists.

I have to agree that this premis should be challenged. As has been stated in previous posts, crossdressing makes us neither better nor worse than anyone else; just different. There is nothing at all about us that should make anyone, regardless of gender, feel either inferior or superior to us.

Responding to; My gift to her would be my own sense of compassion to sit and listen to her as she attempted to explain her feelings to me. It is through that process and that process alone that we learn what each other's needs are and how to meet them.

According to what the women have said in the following thread I have to disagree.
http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... nknown+sos

I think this is a point on which we may end up agreeing to dissagree.

After reading all of the posts in that thread, several of them more than once, I really didn't see anything there that contradicted what I said. And Sharon(SO)'s remark...

I also get the old "turn the volumn up on the remote control to drown her out" response.

... would indicate that perhaps Shannon needs to turn up the volume of his compassion a bit and listen a bit better to his SO. (No offense meant Shannon, just an observation.) Still it comes down to communication and enough compassion for each other to stop and not just hear what the other is saying but truely listen and try to understand.

Cross-dressing helps me meet the needs of women (and others) because Cross-dressing helps me love myself, and unless one is loved they have nothing worth while to give. Certainly I would not want to depend on what one is not loved has to offer.

This statement gives me rather mixed feelings. It has been written time and time again throughout history that one cannot truely love another until one can love himself. And, I do believe that to be true. But it also sets such a high standard that very few, if any, human beings on this planet can achieve.

I think there comes a point in our lives where we have perhaps not attained that lofty goal, but have reached a point of equilibrium within ourselves that we are then able to extend our hand of love to others and recieve the same in return. Again, this is going to vary greatly from one individual to the next.

I feel that our (humans) psychological growth in terms of reaching that point is far outpaced by our biological clocks and the need to procreate. Thus we find ourselves attempting to enter into relationships to service our need for the latter, long before we have developed our sense of self. And it is this quandry that creates much of the conflict in our relationships with our SOs. And crossdressing is but an additional complication.

But it is very much a part of human nature for one to grow as a person through conflict. For it is how we choose to face and resolve conflicts, no matter how large or small, that determines who we are. When two people choose to spend their lives together, conflict will always be there. How we deal with those conflicts, through action and/or communication, will determine how successful that relationship will be.

I hope I didn't stray too far from the intended path there.

[Tea Cake]

HI Darlene,

Some thoughts on CDing meeting needs(of our selves and SO's):
I think CDing is a form of expression---and for a lot of us here, its the sort of expression that we feel so passionate about that we are willing to build our lives around.
Any sort of intense focus on ANY kind of expression can turn into a path--and fill a part of our needs...to really cultivate this and meet our needs in a really substantial way, I believe-any art or discipline begans to point to wholeness---its up to the artist as to how driven they are to explore that aspect of it.
-------- I would think that it is the kind of thing that begins to show up after years and years and years building up a relationship with a form of expression. Part of growing as an artist(or hero as it's been put).

Although CDing does have a beautiful softness to it that I imagine as a feminine-energy---the wholeness one might seek in it is no greater or less than another path. Not solely a feminine-power. Self-understanding might be genderless really. Feminine-energy Just happens to be how I describe the FEELING that keeps me exploring it.


As far as what we have to offer another in a relationship: CD or not:

Living with another and sharing lives is more exciting for me when my SO's have been passionate about SOMETHING----(or everything!) doesn't have to be whatever I'm into. Without something though---people seem to be a little lost. I don't think one's CDing need overshadow the relationship ---if its a good one.(not sure what a good one is really---I'm just guessing to be honest. Why is it that when alone its easy to paint such a precise and understanding picture of how I see it ...but in reality----somewhere something departs in all of the real life relationships I've had? hmmmmmmmmm ------ I'm remebering lately how little I really understand life's social complexities----think I'll go weed in my garden---and quiet my brain.
Bye for now---
JUst wanted to add my point of view. Sorry if I sound repetative.
--------------- Tea-cake

[Anita]

Hello--
I'm with Teacake in thinking that CDing is a form of expression that is often so intense that we build our lives around it. It does create a path of its own.

Which brings me to Darlene's continuing thread through all of this. She's saying that no matter what kind of understanding that happens between SOs, the wife will always be an observer, to some degree. Unlike other paths like spiritualiy or art, there's no way for the wife to become equal.

This has bothered me about CDing almost from the beginning. The only people who feel the same intensity about this are other CDs, and sometimes trangender female-to-male men. It's a short list.

I saw the same thing with my guitar playing over the years. I certainly wasn't a rock star, but I was getting paid for duplicating whatever rock star was popular at the time. No matter how gifted my musician girlfriends might have been, they couldn't join me at what I was doing. Even now, there aren't that many women doing hard rock and metal.

There was a bond between me and the band that I couldn't share with the SO, and she was always the onlooker at a certain point. The idealist in me did not like this. I feel that the best relationships are ones where the people involved have the potential to share their most intense involvement. That means that the chosen path is available to both of them.

And that's where crossdressing falls flat on its face. With the best intentions in the world, an SO can only go so far into this.

I still think CDing is beneficial for us, the CD. I think wives can share some of those benefits, too. But I'd have to agree with Kathy that the complications seem moe common than the benefits.
Anita

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Tea-Cake,

Thank you for your input. "Feminine-energy" Never thought about it that way before, I like it... No I don't... I love it, That is beautiful, right now as I write this I am totally enjoying my feminine-energy as a result of the way I am dressed.

Responding to: Why is it that when alone its easy to paint such a precise and understanding picture of how I see it ...but in reality----somewhere something departs in all of the real life relationships I've had?

Excellent point and one of the reasons I have chosen to stay single.

You didn't stray from the intended path Kathy, So now on to the larger picture. I am going to pull comments from your post (that will help me present the picture) and put them all together in one quote.

It has been written time and time again throughout history that one cannot truly love another until one can love himself. And, I do believe that to be true. But it also sets such a high standard that very few, if any, human beings on this planet can achieve.
I think there comes a point in our lives where we have perhaps not attained that lofty goal.
And cross-dressing is but an additional complication.

I agree with everything you have said in this quote, and that leads me to ask this question. With that being true, why is it necessary for us to have to believe there is nothing wrong with cross-dressing? Is it because we can not love ourselves if there is?

I think that most of us agree that no one is perfect. What about those other things in our lives that we don't feel are right? Is that not what keeps us from loving ourselves?

Why not just find a way to believe that there is nothing wrong with them as well? Then we could love ourselves. Right? I mean if it works for one why not for every thing?

There is only one way that I know of to love myself, in spite of all my warts, and that is to accept me the way I am, just as I have had to come to terms with the fact that I am a cross-dresser and will be one till the day I die.

In fact I believe that our need to believe that cross-dressing is not a sin just gets in the way.

Thank you to all of you who responded helping to make this post possible.

Anita...Your post slipped in while I was writing this one, thank you for the addition.

You stated that; I still think CDing is beneficial for us, the CD. I think wives can share some of those benefits, too.

And I agree.

[Beauty]

This has been such a great thread. Very thought provoking too!

I'm glad that some of us have stepped up to say, "Ya' know what. I'm special and all because I'm transgendered/a crossdresser, but that doesn't mean I'm better than anyone."

We're different, but not to the degree that we're better.

A poor person has insight on greed better than a rich person. To me that doesn't mean that the poor person is better than the rich person. I think we as TG'd/CD'd folks can see the flaws of men and we correct certain aspects of our lives that they rollover in their 4x4's and don't look back. I don't think that makes us any better. It just makes us not do those things.

Again, what a wonderful thread. I waited to read it until I had time. It was well worth the read!!!

Thank you Darlene for starting it and all those who've posted incredibly deep things and given me insight into the fact, "I'm not alone!"

Beauty

[Kathy]

I think the answers to Darlene's questions transend crossdressing and, as she indicates, are affected by all aspects of our lives. And those answers will be different for each of us that reads the questions.

... why is it necessary for us to have to believe there is nothing wrong with cross-dressing? Is it because we can not love ourselves if there is?

For me, I believe there is nothing wrong with crossdressing simply because there is nothing wrong with crossdressing. At some point in the past somebody, somewhere, declared that men shall wear pants and women shall wear skirts. Just because that person made that declaration does not mean that they were right to do so. It was an arbitrary decision that somehow became a "societal norm".

Today, women wear pants all the time. But they do so with at least a bit of style and class. It is very rare to see a woman that outrageously looks like a girl in men's clothes. And, yes, a lot of that has to do with the women's clothing designers.

So, why not a man in a dress? If he does it with just a bit of style and class? There is no law against it as far as I know.

But that isn't what Darlene is questioning. I think a big part of the problem has to do with the way people look at other people.

When you pick up a newspaper or turn on any of the news channels, how much coverage is given to people who have done something wrong, or at least percieved to have done something wrong? Now, how much coverage is given to people who have done something right?

People today (and yes, sweeping generalization warning) seem to be obsessed with picking on other peoples warts. People today seem to get extreme enjoyment from seeing other people bleed. Otherwise, why would Jerry Springer be so popular in the TV ratings? Why does the National Enquirer out sell every other major newspaper combined?

With so much emphasis on what's wrong with us, and so little on what's right, is it any wonder that people have a bit of a problem trying to love themselves, let alone each other?

Since we, as crossdressers, are one of the many groups who keep being told what we do is wrong, we start looking at ourselves to identify the problem. We examine our emotions, our feelings, our relationships with others. In so doing, our sense of self becomes stronger and stronger. And, finally, we reach the point where we realize we can stand up and shout "HEY, I'M ALRIGHT! IT'S THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT'S ALL WRONG!!!".

At that point, we find we can love ourselves. And when we start loving ourselves, we find we can start loving others.

Some of us have reached that point, some of us have not. But it is a journey that we share not only among ourselves, but with all the other people out there who are being picked on just because they are "different".

And, why is it that whenever I start to reply to a post I end up writing a book? ))))))

[Anita]

Hello--
Hey, it's a GOOD book, Kathy.

I've posted this idea long ago, on the other forum, but it bears repeating. As I see it, we break two rules when we dress.

The first rule is about gender--we're not supposed to cross gender lines, and that one is obvious to us all. This also applies to gay men who act effeminate, so it isn't just about the clothes. But our clothes really make a statement--it puts our gender crossing right out front.

The second rule is more subtle. It says that you can't go out in public in any kind of disquise or costume, unless there's a Mardi Gras or Halloween event. We don't trust anyone who is disquised in any way--we always associate it with deception.

If you think about it, I can't go out in public disquised as an 80 year old man, either. That's not gender crossing, but it would be just as disturbing to people if they "read" me. They wouldn't understand it (just like they don't understand CDing), and they would be suspicious of my intentions.


I can't dress as a fireman, or a male nurse, or a policeman, either. I can't wear any kind of costume in day-to-day life, even if it's a male role.
So if I want to try on another identity, crossdressing may be outrageous, but it's actually tolerated better than if I tried to go out as that 80 year old man.


As a performer, you can get around this "rule." But even so, if I go shopping in a clown suit on the way to my job as a circus performer, I'm going to make some people uneasy.

As children, we all love to play pretend, and dress up as cowboys or soldiers. ( And for us here, also as Cinderella and Wonderwoman! )

I don't think that need to take on other identities goes away with age, but we are not allowed to express it anymore. If any of you can think of a socially approved "disquise," then post it here.

So for me, when I'm out as my femme self, I'm also aware that some of the liberation I feel comes from being able to be another person for awhile, irregardless of gender.
Anita

[Kathy]

I understand your points Anita and, for the most part, I agree with you. But I don't want to wear a disguise. I don't want to wear makeup. I don't want to wear a wig. I want to be me and I want to wear a skirt to go shopping at the mall.

[CJ]

Hi all,

A "socially approved disguise," Anita? How about your usual male self? I mean this seriously. In a sense, whenever we're out in public (male or female, crossdressed or not... as our "regular" selves, in other words), we do, indeed, wear a disguise. Who I am when alone, or, possibly, when in the company of my partner or my most intimate friends, is rarely the very same person I am when I'm out and about among relative strangers or even passing acquaintances. Our "public" face is a mask. And I tend to think, to believe, to feel, that, as Tea-Cake alluded to, the deepest, truest core of our selves is both genderless and genderful.

By the way, Tea-Cake, I finally got around to following up on the link to the Indonesian Bugis. Very interesting. It speaks volumes for the capacity of human beings and cultures to constantly invent and re-invent themselves. Thanks for the link, girl.

As always, thanks to Darlene for starting this topic; it's rich and fascinating, and I've learned much from all of you gals.

Love,
CJ

[Anita]

That's pretty good, CJ--my "socially approved disquise" is indeed my usual male self. One to a customer, put him on your driver's license, and don't try to appear as anyone or anything but him.

This is funny to me, though. I would be very embarrassed if any family or friends caught me wearing a doctor's hospital scrubs. What would I say? "I like pretending I'm a doctor sometimes?"

I never considered that CDing is actually one the few acceptable ways to go out dressed differently than your official "disquise." It's fun to play pretend! Maybe this can help explain why some of us don't feel like women, but still like dressing up as "someone else."
A