Hello again,
All very good and thoughtful replies.
There is one more piece to this picture as I understand it.
The degree to which a person is able to accept them selves, which is a requirement and/or a condition of being able to love ones self, is easily measured by how much one can accept and/or love others.
In my opinion we who need to prove to others that they are wrong, and those who need to prove to us that we are wrong have the same problem.
They are unable to accept themselves, which means to love themselves.
There is a blessing in store for those who are able to love our selves, and those who can not do that are the losers. Once that is recognized the need to show others that they are wrong is replaced with the desire to make others aware of the need to accept and/or love themselves. Because if they love themselves they will love us, just as if we love ourselves we will love them.
Love simply is not a one way street, it can not work that way.
What are we as Cross-Dressers?
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
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Loretta Ann
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
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Hi all,
Anita,
What you say is true. But, maybe, there's a distinction to be made between social roles and gender roles. I know that gender roles are "social," also, but perhaps not in the same way as are roles we take on as a result of our professions or leisure interests.
Being a soldier, and astronaut, a fireman, or a doctor, for example, is no longer exclusively the province of men any more than being a nurse, an executive secretary, a social worker, or a fashionable clothing boutique clerk is exclusively the province of women.
Yet, "being a woman" or "being a man" are still--and, in all fairness, not unreasonably so--the provinces of women and men respectively (and, to my mind, being who I am, perhaps rather too exclusively so).
There are many attendant social roles that revolve around womanhood to which we, as men, will never gain access... mother, daughter, aunt, sister, wife, etc. These roles are all defined through a woman's relationships with other people. Of course, the same is true of men's roles and their link to both other people and to manhood in general.
Our "disguising" ourselves as women perhaps creates a "double-vision" in the eyes of our SOs, friends, and families, in that, to them, we retain the roles irremediably linked to our being men while simultaneously superimposing (or trying to, at any rate) those roles linked with the condition of womanhood. That we often refer to each other as "Sister," here, is but a case in point. This double-vision can become, I imagine, a source of anxiety to those who love us and who share our lives. I've heard quite a few SOs mention that they manage to cope with their DH's crossdressing by focusing on the man underneath all the feminine trappings. This is one way for them to correct that double-vision. I'm sure there are others.
Being caught dressed as a doctor when, in fact, you aren't a doctor (with the exception, of course, of the proverbial actor who plays one on TV), might be embarrassing to you because there's no part of you that needs others to recognize that, say, you want to help the ill (or whatever it is that doctors do when not playing golf). Conversely, your need to express yourself as Anita, and to have others see Anita, may have to do with the fact that this feminine wellspring is, truly, an essential aspect of your psychological makeup. No embarrassment there (who wants to have to apologize for who they are?).
What do you think? Is there maybe a difference in these roles?
Love,
CJ
Anita,
What you say is true. But, maybe, there's a distinction to be made between social roles and gender roles. I know that gender roles are "social," also, but perhaps not in the same way as are roles we take on as a result of our professions or leisure interests.
Being a soldier, and astronaut, a fireman, or a doctor, for example, is no longer exclusively the province of men any more than being a nurse, an executive secretary, a social worker, or a fashionable clothing boutique clerk is exclusively the province of women.
Yet, "being a woman" or "being a man" are still--and, in all fairness, not unreasonably so--the provinces of women and men respectively (and, to my mind, being who I am, perhaps rather too exclusively so).
There are many attendant social roles that revolve around womanhood to which we, as men, will never gain access... mother, daughter, aunt, sister, wife, etc. These roles are all defined through a woman's relationships with other people. Of course, the same is true of men's roles and their link to both other people and to manhood in general.
Our "disguising" ourselves as women perhaps creates a "double-vision" in the eyes of our SOs, friends, and families, in that, to them, we retain the roles irremediably linked to our being men while simultaneously superimposing (or trying to, at any rate) those roles linked with the condition of womanhood. That we often refer to each other as "Sister," here, is but a case in point. This double-vision can become, I imagine, a source of anxiety to those who love us and who share our lives. I've heard quite a few SOs mention that they manage to cope with their DH's crossdressing by focusing on the man underneath all the feminine trappings. This is one way for them to correct that double-vision. I'm sure there are others.
Being caught dressed as a doctor when, in fact, you aren't a doctor (with the exception, of course, of the proverbial actor who plays one on TV), might be embarrassing to you because there's no part of you that needs others to recognize that, say, you want to help the ill (or whatever it is that doctors do when not playing golf). Conversely, your need to express yourself as Anita, and to have others see Anita, may have to do with the fact that this feminine wellspring is, truly, an essential aspect of your psychological makeup. No embarrassment there (who wants to have to apologize for who they are?).
What do you think? Is there maybe a difference in these roles?
Love,
CJ
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Kathy
- Miss Platinum Goddess
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 2:38 pm
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Darlene, all I can say to that statement isDarlene wrote:There is a blessing in store for those who are able to love our selves, and those who can not do that are the losers. Once that is recognized the need to show others that they are wrong is replaced with the desire to make others aware of the need to accept and/or love themselves. Because if they love themselves they will love us, just as if we love ourselves we will love them.
Love simply is not a one way street, it can not work that way.
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
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Aislin
- Miss Sapphire Goddess
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:23 pm
- Location: SW Idaho
CJ - quote "Yet, "being a woman" or "being a man" are still--and, in all fairness, not unreasonably so--the provinces of women and men respectively (and, to my mind, being who I am, perhaps rather too exclusively so). "
Frankly this leaves me a little startled.
Who defines your "being" if not your self? The provance s of men and women seem to be set by societal mores as the beliefs wax and wane. Perhaps we are simply born out of time and space, representing the next evolutionafy androginous step in social evolution. One of the greatest gifts I received from counseling was the strength to redefine my being on my terms. Alas the society we live in does not accept a difference,
This difference can be in humor, height , weight..... As a man I am 6'7" 320 lbs. a big bear of an individual. I perceive that most people are inherently afraid of me based on a predliction fosterd in childhood to fear large individuals with beards. ( The classic "Bad Guy") At first , after realizing that I could make them play the game by starting to look upset, make small children cry by smiling at them or have short drunken individuals pick me for the first butt whipping after getting suitable courage, I became that individual society thought I should be.
Many years later I learned that most of society will continue to see me in that light. Their Loss. Aislin enables me and enhances my being, by allowing me to experience the softer side of life. She shows me how to wear very comfortable clothing, and allows my fetishes and fantasies to experience the full light of day.
Sudden stop.
I also feel somewhat confused. As I have continued to read the thread I wonder how much is actually very selfish of me. When this side of my life makes an appearance, I become very selfish wanting all the attention to be on me." See how pretty I am. Don't I look sexy. I make a gorgeous woman." I find my self stopping to ask WHY? What are my motavations?
Is It the easiest way to rebel? Do I really believe that as I percieved in the begining the women have the power over mankind and thats why I want to dress like one? Is It Fantasy and fetish I cannot let go of? Is it really just a game I want to play, with people who seem to think like I do? Why do I do this thing that offends so many?
I do have the fantasy and fetish. The shoes and clothing are cut in a way to favor my frame. My feet rest easier in the shoes and seem to be designed for them. They fit better and wear longer. The pants are far more comfortable and somewhat erotic. So it feeds my self while allowing me to express a little disgust for societal mores.(Mild societial Insanity)
A fine looking woman has the power to make men do stupid things. Just once I would like to have that power and feel the rush. Issue is it may be addictive. So as I write I discover the need for the power trip. Not unexpected just acknowledged.
It is a game I play with my SO. I think she may get as much of a charge out of it as I do. She has certainly done some things to propagte it. Purchasing items I can go out in public in that matter to me and make an androgynous statement to the public eye. A real turn on for me and having talked it is a turn on for her as well, but only if we are in a place where her family has the lowest chance of being. I am allowed in public but not with any close kin. Maybe the "dirty little secret".
So why do I dress? It makes me feel more complete. It allows me to show a softer side, without disbaling my societal image. I become another person to "masquerade" , showing those feelings and emotions society will not allow to fit in my current mold.
Perhaps then I do society a great disservice by not being myself, wearing what I want to when I want to. Perhaps I also live with the very real fear of individuals who cannot cope with my freedom, tying me up and dragging me behind a truck for twenty plus miles.
Fear of not being able to live in a society that accepts me as I am neither male nor female but a mixture of both.
My one true fear exposed for the world to see.
Frankly this leaves me a little startled.
Who defines your "being" if not your self? The provance s of men and women seem to be set by societal mores as the beliefs wax and wane. Perhaps we are simply born out of time and space, representing the next evolutionafy androginous step in social evolution. One of the greatest gifts I received from counseling was the strength to redefine my being on my terms. Alas the society we live in does not accept a difference,
This difference can be in humor, height , weight..... As a man I am 6'7" 320 lbs. a big bear of an individual. I perceive that most people are inherently afraid of me based on a predliction fosterd in childhood to fear large individuals with beards. ( The classic "Bad Guy") At first , after realizing that I could make them play the game by starting to look upset, make small children cry by smiling at them or have short drunken individuals pick me for the first butt whipping after getting suitable courage, I became that individual society thought I should be.
Many years later I learned that most of society will continue to see me in that light. Their Loss. Aislin enables me and enhances my being, by allowing me to experience the softer side of life. She shows me how to wear very comfortable clothing, and allows my fetishes and fantasies to experience the full light of day.
Sudden stop.
I also feel somewhat confused. As I have continued to read the thread I wonder how much is actually very selfish of me. When this side of my life makes an appearance, I become very selfish wanting all the attention to be on me." See how pretty I am. Don't I look sexy. I make a gorgeous woman." I find my self stopping to ask WHY? What are my motavations?
Is It the easiest way to rebel? Do I really believe that as I percieved in the begining the women have the power over mankind and thats why I want to dress like one? Is It Fantasy and fetish I cannot let go of? Is it really just a game I want to play, with people who seem to think like I do? Why do I do this thing that offends so many?
I do have the fantasy and fetish. The shoes and clothing are cut in a way to favor my frame. My feet rest easier in the shoes and seem to be designed for them. They fit better and wear longer. The pants are far more comfortable and somewhat erotic. So it feeds my self while allowing me to express a little disgust for societal mores.(Mild societial Insanity)
A fine looking woman has the power to make men do stupid things. Just once I would like to have that power and feel the rush. Issue is it may be addictive. So as I write I discover the need for the power trip. Not unexpected just acknowledged.
It is a game I play with my SO. I think she may get as much of a charge out of it as I do. She has certainly done some things to propagte it. Purchasing items I can go out in public in that matter to me and make an androgynous statement to the public eye. A real turn on for me and having talked it is a turn on for her as well, but only if we are in a place where her family has the lowest chance of being. I am allowed in public but not with any close kin. Maybe the "dirty little secret".
So why do I dress? It makes me feel more complete. It allows me to show a softer side, without disbaling my societal image. I become another person to "masquerade" , showing those feelings and emotions society will not allow to fit in my current mold.
Perhaps then I do society a great disservice by not being myself, wearing what I want to when I want to. Perhaps I also live with the very real fear of individuals who cannot cope with my freedom, tying me up and dragging me behind a truck for twenty plus miles.
Fear of not being able to live in a society that accepts me as I am neither male nor female but a mixture of both.
My one true fear exposed for the world to see.
Aislin
What started as a dream has become a reality.
Above all no regrets.
What started as a dream has become a reality.
Above all no regrets.
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Loretta Ann
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
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- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Aislin,
What a wonderful post! Very introspective, as Darlene said. Thanks for sharing that.
That you're startled by my assertion regarding roles is okay, too (I'll never deny I have a little side to me that likes to shake and shock, even though I try to keep it muted most of the time).
About those roles, I think "being a man" and "being a woman" are much different things than "being masculine" or "being feminine." I am a man by virtue of my sex at birth, although I can be feminine by virtue of my gender identity, regardless of how I otherwise opt to define myself. That's all I meant. I don't intend to suggest that a man can't adopt social roles traditionally thought of as feminine ones (or vice versa); no, only that his doing so will never obviate the fact that he remains a father, a son, a husband, etc., precisely because of the fact that he is a man.
The point I was trying to make, I guess, is that there might be a difference between the things we are, as men or women, and the things we are as masculine or feminine individuals.
Love,
CJ
Aislin,
What a wonderful post! Very introspective, as Darlene said. Thanks for sharing that.
That you're startled by my assertion regarding roles is okay, too (I'll never deny I have a little side to me that likes to shake and shock, even though I try to keep it muted most of the time).
About those roles, I think "being a man" and "being a woman" are much different things than "being masculine" or "being feminine." I am a man by virtue of my sex at birth, although I can be feminine by virtue of my gender identity, regardless of how I otherwise opt to define myself. That's all I meant. I don't intend to suggest that a man can't adopt social roles traditionally thought of as feminine ones (or vice versa); no, only that his doing so will never obviate the fact that he remains a father, a son, a husband, etc., precisely because of the fact that he is a man.
The point I was trying to make, I guess, is that there might be a difference between the things we are, as men or women, and the things we are as masculine or feminine individuals.
Love,
CJ
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Anita
- Miss Diamond Goddess
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- Location: Burlingame, CA (San Francisco Bay area)
Hello--
This is quite a thread!
Darlene, that last paragraph about self-love is concise and very beautiful. Much good can come of this whole thread you started, but that paragraph sums it up.
CJ, I'd have to say that gender roles trump all other ones, because they have biological roots. To some degree, we're challenging them, but no matter what we do, at this point in time we can never become pregnant and have children, for instance.
Women can now be firefighters or doctors, but I chose those professions because they have always been very respectable ones for men. I guess I'm kind of shocked to see that society doesn't want me to take on any role other than my own, even if it's the same gender.
We can argue that all these trades I mentioned need training, and I haven't "earned" the right to represent them. That's very true. But it does not make the desire go away.
I have to admit, it would make me angry if someone pretended to be a flooring contractor, and wanted to have the same privileges that I've had to work hard for. In the same way, I can understand the women also get angry at what they see as our "pretending" to be women. But the analogy is not quite accurate, because it's not as apparent what we stand to gain by looking like women.
Faking a social or professional role can bring money or fame. Faking a gender role? We all know it has benefits, but the rest of the world thinks we're crazy. There's certainly not money, power, or fame in it, and those are usually the reasons that drive men to do things.
Aislin, I think you've described yourself before, but I'm just now letting it sink in. Your appearance would indeed be a big threat to people, as a man. Even my 6' height is enough to make others uncomfortable.
Like you, I have been very puzzled by why I can be so "addicted," in your words, to the attention I get when dressed as a woman. It is a very powerful rush. It also works against the blending of the two selves, because it's more of a physical quality.
No matter how much feminine behavior I adopt as a man, I won't bring out this same awe in men if I'm not dressed as a woman. On one hand, this seems very superficial, and I don't like it. On the other hand, the notice I get as a woman seems very primal, and goes deep into my core.
I do have power as a man--so why do I need this other power source, that comes from adopting the appearance of a woman? I suspect my three sisters get angry at my CDing for this very reason--I'm intruding on their territory, and getting "privileges" that they worked hard all their lives for.
Not all of us need or want the attention of men, but it's a very distracting thing for those of us who do enjoy that aspect.
And of course our CDing is not all about the superficial. But it would be easier to blend the two selves if this physical aspect was not a part of it.
And maybe you and I can grow out of this phase, too--it's the teenage part of us, in some ways. One does not become a mature woman overnight, just because we're mature men.
Anita
This is quite a thread!
Darlene, that last paragraph about self-love is concise and very beautiful. Much good can come of this whole thread you started, but that paragraph sums it up.
CJ, I'd have to say that gender roles trump all other ones, because they have biological roots. To some degree, we're challenging them, but no matter what we do, at this point in time we can never become pregnant and have children, for instance.
Women can now be firefighters or doctors, but I chose those professions because they have always been very respectable ones for men. I guess I'm kind of shocked to see that society doesn't want me to take on any role other than my own, even if it's the same gender.
We can argue that all these trades I mentioned need training, and I haven't "earned" the right to represent them. That's very true. But it does not make the desire go away.
I have to admit, it would make me angry if someone pretended to be a flooring contractor, and wanted to have the same privileges that I've had to work hard for. In the same way, I can understand the women also get angry at what they see as our "pretending" to be women. But the analogy is not quite accurate, because it's not as apparent what we stand to gain by looking like women.
Faking a social or professional role can bring money or fame. Faking a gender role? We all know it has benefits, but the rest of the world thinks we're crazy. There's certainly not money, power, or fame in it, and those are usually the reasons that drive men to do things.
Aislin, I think you've described yourself before, but I'm just now letting it sink in. Your appearance would indeed be a big threat to people, as a man. Even my 6' height is enough to make others uncomfortable.
Like you, I have been very puzzled by why I can be so "addicted," in your words, to the attention I get when dressed as a woman. It is a very powerful rush. It also works against the blending of the two selves, because it's more of a physical quality.
No matter how much feminine behavior I adopt as a man, I won't bring out this same awe in men if I'm not dressed as a woman. On one hand, this seems very superficial, and I don't like it. On the other hand, the notice I get as a woman seems very primal, and goes deep into my core.
I do have power as a man--so why do I need this other power source, that comes from adopting the appearance of a woman? I suspect my three sisters get angry at my CDing for this very reason--I'm intruding on their territory, and getting "privileges" that they worked hard all their lives for.
Not all of us need or want the attention of men, but it's a very distracting thing for those of us who do enjoy that aspect.
And of course our CDing is not all about the superficial. But it would be easier to blend the two selves if this physical aspect was not a part of it.
And maybe you and I can grow out of this phase, too--it's the teenage part of us, in some ways. One does not become a mature woman overnight, just because we're mature men.
Anita
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Kathy
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I guess this is one of the areas where there is a lot of variance between crossdressers. I find that I can't really relate to this aspect of dressing. I can understand what you all are saying about the various gender roles and such. I just can't relate to it.
As I've stated in other posts, I have never gotten all dressed up with makeup, nail polish, jewelry and wig and gone out in public. Why? I never had the desire to do so. I never felt the need.
I've also stated elsewhere that I have never identified myself, either in whole or in part as a woman. Just a guy who enjoys femenine things. I'm just not into that part of it. Yes, I wear feminine things out in public. But I guess I'm just that androgenous person that Aislin spoke of. That's the way I dress. That's the way I am. I make no effort whatsoever to disguise my male identity. I guess, for me, it is more about the blending of the two "personas" into one individual.
I said it before. I just want to be me. And I want to wear a skirt to go shopping at the mall without, as Aislin also said, being tied behind a pickup truck and dragged for 20 miles.
As I've stated in other posts, I have never gotten all dressed up with makeup, nail polish, jewelry and wig and gone out in public. Why? I never had the desire to do so. I never felt the need.
I've also stated elsewhere that I have never identified myself, either in whole or in part as a woman. Just a guy who enjoys femenine things. I'm just not into that part of it. Yes, I wear feminine things out in public. But I guess I'm just that androgenous person that Aislin spoke of. That's the way I dress. That's the way I am. I make no effort whatsoever to disguise my male identity. I guess, for me, it is more about the blending of the two "personas" into one individual.
I said it before. I just want to be me. And I want to wear a skirt to go shopping at the mall without, as Aislin also said, being tied behind a pickup truck and dragged for 20 miles.
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
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Tea Cake
- Miss Emerald Goddess
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- Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:20 pm
- Location: Ak
Kathy--
If you just got out of the shower and were picking which clothes to wear---if instead of, say, a broken in pair of boy-jeans and a pair of chuck-Taylors, you chose instead a nice straight-skirt with a kick slit and strappy-sandals--it would feel different to you. YOU would feel different too(?). THat FEELING might be similar to that a CDer who enjoys getting ALL DONE UP feels. Could be exactly the same feeling--Just a thought. Could be that thinking about <<--a woman's powerful role in this world-->> is mostly thoughtful retrospect--SECONDARY to the emotional-blends of the experience.
--------I'm thinking too about your other post--letting it sink in before I comment---------------------------enjoying your thinking on all this.
-----------------BYE!!! Tea-cake
If you just got out of the shower and were picking which clothes to wear---if instead of, say, a broken in pair of boy-jeans and a pair of chuck-Taylors, you chose instead a nice straight-skirt with a kick slit and strappy-sandals--it would feel different to you. YOU would feel different too(?). THat FEELING might be similar to that a CDer who enjoys getting ALL DONE UP feels. Could be exactly the same feeling--Just a thought. Could be that thinking about <<--a woman's powerful role in this world-->> is mostly thoughtful retrospect--SECONDARY to the emotional-blends of the experience.
--------I'm thinking too about your other post--letting it sink in before I comment---------------------------enjoying your thinking on all this.
-----------------BYE!!!
Tea-cake-
Kathy
- Miss Platinum Goddess
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- Contact:
Hi Tea-cake,
I must say that I've been sitting here with your post on my screen for nearly an hour considering how to answer your questions.
Do the clothes feel different? Obviously, that would be a yes. Do I feel different? I have to answer that with a qualified no. I feel different only as I find skirts much more comfortable than either boy or girl jeans. Being more comfortable, I am also more relaxed.
Do I feel different emotionally? No, I really don't. But, until I read your post, I had never really thought about it in those terms. Now that I have thought about it, I guess I have to say that my emotional side has been integrated for so long that I just take it for granted. Only since finding this board have I even considered the idea of integration.
I have always been the type to stop and smell the roses. I usually get teary eyed at weddings, I always cry at funerals. Even thinking back to High School (talk about ancient history), I was always hanging out with the girls more than the guys. A bunch of us went to see the movie "Love Story". I was the only guy in the place who was crying right along with the girls. And I was certainly dressed in drab at all at those times.
My choice of clothing today is simply based on mood and weather. Given the weather forcast and what I feel like today, what will I find most comfortable. As I have to interact with my parents all day, I promise you, it won't be a skirt. Unless I choose to wear one for the hour or two I have before they start their morning routine.
So, it doesn't matter whether I am wearing girl gear or guy gear. My feelings are the same either way and, now that I really think back on that, it has been that way at least since my teens.
I must say that I've been sitting here with your post on my screen for nearly an hour considering how to answer your questions.
Do the clothes feel different? Obviously, that would be a yes. Do I feel different? I have to answer that with a qualified no. I feel different only as I find skirts much more comfortable than either boy or girl jeans. Being more comfortable, I am also more relaxed.
Do I feel different emotionally? No, I really don't. But, until I read your post, I had never really thought about it in those terms. Now that I have thought about it, I guess I have to say that my emotional side has been integrated for so long that I just take it for granted. Only since finding this board have I even considered the idea of integration.
I have always been the type to stop and smell the roses. I usually get teary eyed at weddings, I always cry at funerals. Even thinking back to High School (talk about ancient history), I was always hanging out with the girls more than the guys. A bunch of us went to see the movie "Love Story". I was the only guy in the place who was crying right along with the girls. And I was certainly dressed in drab at all at those times.
My choice of clothing today is simply based on mood and weather. Given the weather forcast and what I feel like today, what will I find most comfortable. As I have to interact with my parents all day, I promise you, it won't be a skirt. Unless I choose to wear one for the hour or two I have before they start their morning routine.
So, it doesn't matter whether I am wearing girl gear or guy gear. My feelings are the same either way and, now that I really think back on that, it has been that way at least since my teens.
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
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Loretta Ann
- Permanently Banned
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- Location: Vancouver, Canada
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Aislin
- Miss Sapphire Goddess
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:23 pm
- Location: SW Idaho
WOW, what a long strange trip it's been.
Today I completly reread the thread. My thanks to everyone who has posted and will continue to post.
I really do not know what to say. The content and size are simply overwhelming. I feel like I have gotten more than I have given.
Pigeon holes, our place in society, perception, Others feelings, Our attempt at building a small slice of heaven, Fears, the list goes on and on. NO FLAMES just good honest talk between others who share my views with an open mind.
Darlene - Did you have an inkling that the discussion might go this far? That so many people would open up and share? I am not sure you could have known . I am sure that as a group we have surprised each other. My posts have surprised me!
CJ - I knew there might be someone in this world who communicates as I do. At work I am just stirring the pot to see what will happen. I stirred and stirred and discovered sisters who care. (I hope this does not offend) People who really give a S#$T about what I write and say. Finally in a group that analyzes what I write and expects the same.
CDKathy - Your posts have been most enlightening. You fill that void between the esoterics some of us wrte about and simpler understanding.I humbly salute you.
Tea-cake - Wow As simply stated as possible. You have been the main instagator to my posts. Asking the questions I can not frame reading my possible answers and responding. You are a joy to talk with.
Anita - Gender has rules, who knew?
I enjoy your posts. You state the obvious in a way I can relate to, cutting out the fluff and the PC wording. You get right to the point without shoveling so much fertilizer.
I know this sounds like an obituary, It is not. After reading all the posts in this thread a melancholy feeling came over me and I felt compelled to share. To all the ladies who have shared, thank you for posting a part of yourself in the most serious thread I have ever encountered on the subject.
Warm hugs, kisses,and handholding are appropriate here. Thankyou for allowing me to see my self as others see me. It is a gift not readily given nor can it be forceably received.
Sometimes in the middle of such a discussion, usually just before I would upset someone to anger this happens. I have entered a time of deep introspection, and will probably post this introspection as we continue. Either in this thread or perhaps another. The journey continues ever onward.
Today I completly reread the thread. My thanks to everyone who has posted and will continue to post.
I really do not know what to say. The content and size are simply overwhelming. I feel like I have gotten more than I have given.
Pigeon holes, our place in society, perception, Others feelings, Our attempt at building a small slice of heaven, Fears, the list goes on and on. NO FLAMES just good honest talk between others who share my views with an open mind.
Darlene - Did you have an inkling that the discussion might go this far? That so many people would open up and share? I am not sure you could have known . I am sure that as a group we have surprised each other. My posts have surprised me!
CJ - I knew there might be someone in this world who communicates as I do. At work I am just stirring the pot to see what will happen. I stirred and stirred and discovered sisters who care. (I hope this does not offend) People who really give a S#$T about what I write and say. Finally in a group that analyzes what I write and expects the same.
CDKathy - Your posts have been most enlightening. You fill that void between the esoterics some of us wrte about and simpler understanding.I humbly salute you.
Tea-cake - Wow As simply stated as possible. You have been the main instagator to my posts. Asking the questions I can not frame reading my possible answers and responding. You are a joy to talk with.
Anita - Gender has rules, who knew?
I enjoy your posts. You state the obvious in a way I can relate to, cutting out the fluff and the PC wording. You get right to the point without shoveling so much fertilizer. I know this sounds like an obituary, It is not. After reading all the posts in this thread a melancholy feeling came over me and I felt compelled to share. To all the ladies who have shared, thank you for posting a part of yourself in the most serious thread I have ever encountered on the subject.
Warm hugs, kisses,and handholding are appropriate here. Thankyou for allowing me to see my self as others see me. It is a gift not readily given nor can it be forceably received.
Sometimes in the middle of such a discussion, usually just before I would upset someone to anger this happens. I have entered a time of deep introspection, and will probably post this introspection as we continue. Either in this thread or perhaps another. The journey continues ever onward.
Aislin
What started as a dream has become a reality.
Above all no regrets.
What started as a dream has become a reality.
Above all no regrets.
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Loretta Ann
- Permanently Banned
- Posts: 2199
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:30 pm
- Location: Vancouver, Canada
Hi all,
I had no idea that they would all unfold as they have here, I have been trying to confront them for some time now, and expected that I would have to continue trying one small step at a time. I now have no more issues that I feel I want to confront.
I also knew that I had to take this step before I could move on, I have learned things as a result of what has happened here, and am looking forward to what I will continue to learn.
Each day when I look at yet more responses and see that people are continuing to view this thread, I just ask myself I wonder how much farther this thread will go. You are right I could not have not have known, that so many people would open up and share? Nor did I know who they all would be, although some have not surprised me.
You all need to know that there just are not enough words, sufficient enough in this English language, to let you all know how much I appreciate your contributions to this thread.
Although I was aware of the issues that I wanted to see confronted, I realized that I could not successfully do that on my own. I knew it had to be team work.Aislin asked; Darlene - Did you have an inkling that the discussion might go this far? That so many people would open up and share? I am not sure you could have known . I am sure that as a group we have surprised each other. My posts have surprised me!
I had no idea that they would all unfold as they have here, I have been trying to confront them for some time now, and expected that I would have to continue trying one small step at a time. I now have no more issues that I feel I want to confront.
I also knew that I had to take this step before I could move on, I have learned things as a result of what has happened here, and am looking forward to what I will continue to learn.
Each day when I look at yet more responses and see that people are continuing to view this thread, I just ask myself I wonder how much farther this thread will go. You are right I could not have not have known, that so many people would open up and share? Nor did I know who they all would be, although some have not surprised me.
You all need to know that there just are not enough words, sufficient enough in this English language, to let you all know how much I appreciate your contributions to this thread.
Last edited by Loretta Ann on Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tea Cake
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:20 pm
- Location: Ak
Aislin,
Your wonderfully warm post has added to the quiet happiness of my day.
--- And I love how you acknowledge that writing is like improvising---and suprising ourselves by what comes out sometimes---such a great dynamic---experiencing that. I enjoy your thoughts a lot.
and Darlene,
I am soooooo happy to have met you.
Thanks for giving your time to this place. Your steadiness inspires me.
Sometimes I feel like my pendulummmmmm ssssswings a lot ---
makes me want to slow it down.
Tea-cake
Your wonderfully warm post has added to the quiet happiness of my day.
--- And I love how you acknowledge that writing is like improvising---and suprising ourselves by what comes out sometimes---such a great dynamic---experiencing that. I enjoy your thoughts a lot.
and Darlene,
I am soooooo happy to have met you.
Thanks for giving your time to this place. Your steadiness inspires me.
Sometimes I feel like my pendulummmmmm ssssswings a lot ---
makes me want to slow it down.
Tea-cake-
JoAnn
- Miss Silver Goddess
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 5:45 pm
- Location: Atlanta
I don't feel my wife is an observer, she has been an active participant in my life, and has helped JoAnn grow and nourish. Maybe I'm all wrong about this, but my wife has embraced my being, and finds the CD'ing as a means to an end to see who is really in there. Our whole life and relationship and grown and flourished. Althought the day to day tedium will always be there, I know she now understands my soul as I now understand her's. We actively look forward to our time together as sisters and as lovers....Which brings me to Darlene's continuing thread through all of this. She's saying that no matter what kind of understanding that happens between SOs, the wife will always be an observer, to some degree. Unlike other paths like spiritualiy or art, there's no way for the wife to become equal.
This has bothered me about CDing almost from the beginning. The only people who feel the same intensity about this are other CDs, and sometimes trangender female-to-male men. It's a short list
Maybe she doesn't feel the same intensity level about the CD'ing, but she does now know the whole person......in my case it has been a good thing
live life to the max, never let a day go by where you don't make a difference