"I've been meaning to tell you... Honest!"

[CJ]

God be thanked, the meanest of his creatures
Boasts two soul-sides, one to face the world with,
One to show a woman when he loves her!
--Robert Browning, "One Word More"

Hi all,

I've been struggling lately with the matter of how we're to be honest with our SO. Not with family. Not with friends. Not with society. No, honest with that special person that shares our lives and that knows (or thinks she knows) what's in our deepest heart, what's in our soul.

The reason I'm struggling with this is--as has happened before, and will happen again--I'm feeling a bit "achy" at being alone, and I know that my conviction that I must be completely honest with a potential partner, before she becomes a partner, has much to do with my present aloneness (not necessarily loneliness).

Now, I know that Love (SO) started such a topic a little while ago but, upon re-reading that entire thread, I found that the original question got lost somewhere in the flurry of posts and replies. It mutated into something else entirely. But I want to come back to this topic. It matters to me... especially these days.

I know that many of you, here, have come out to your SOs only after x number of months or years. The most common reaction on the part of the SOs seems to be both anger--not necessarily over the crossdressing itself so much as over the secrecy and dishonesty--and a (I imagine, justified) sense of betrayal.

My questions are these:

Is there really such a thing as "a good time" to become honest with our SOs concerning our crossdressing? If so, when would that be? after six months? five years? Does it even make sense to ask that question? And, if there's no such thing as an ideal time to 'fess up, then why don't we do it from the very beginning of the relationship? Wouldn't this be the most basic sign of respect, friendship, and, especially, trust, toward our potential mate? Wouldn't this give her a chance to decide, fully, for herself whether or not she wants to be partnered with a CD?

Also, I'm curious what we're to make of the fact that we say we're honest with our SOs... except when it comes to telling her who we truly are. Is this kind of "selective" honesty even possible? I'm still scratching my head over this one. Once our SO discovers (or is told of) our crossdressing, the sense of betrayal can be so strong that, henceforth, anything we've ever said, and say, and will say, to her then becomes immediately suspect. Can we blame her for feeling like this?

Finally, a question of a more general kind. Is it possible that all our discussions and preoccupations, here, about the broader social issues facing transgendered individuals are a "smokescreen" of some sort that allows us to avoid facing matters of a more personal nature--such as how we're to deal with the inevitable conflict and emotional distress that will arise out of our struggle to be honest with just one other person, the person who matters most to us in the whole world... our wife... our girlfriend... our life partner... our soulmate... our SO? Just wondering.

You know, folks, I'm feeling a bit blue right now. But that's okay... blue suits me, once in a while. I guess I'm feeling a bit nostalgic... I miss my former girlfriends--now just my friends. From day one, they knew about my crossdressing. This fact made for a lot of smooth sailing (well, mostly smooth, anyway ) and I just have to believe there's a woman out there looking for a man like me. Okay, okay, I've heard all the sermons before and I've fielded all the matchmaking offers I can stand; this isn't what this is about. I just needed to vent, I guess. Thanks for listening, gals.

So, all input regarding this subject would be welcome. I most certainly would love to hear from the SOs also. And let's see what happens if we stay on topic this time.

Love,
CJ

[Loretta Ann]

CJ,

Seeing that you have previously been in relationships where you have been up front the start go, you are probably better equipped to answer that part of your question than me.

The only part of your post that I would like to respond to is:

Is it possible that all our discussions and preoccupation's, here, about the broader social issues facing transgendered individuals are a "smokescreen" of some sort that allows us to avoid facing matters of a more personal nature.

To which my response is I think so in some situations, but not all of them, and some of it is probably done subconsciously.

[Rebecca]

Hi CJ,

A thoughtfull post from you, as always. 'Blue is the colour of the sky' Donovan said.
As you say youv'e heard all the sermons before, and you probably know my story by now pretty well, so.... erm... if it's ok I'll put a little more flesh on the bones, the wider the input, the more open thinking can be, sort of.

The way I told ~D~ seemed just about right, the funny thing is I never planned it. We'd been seeing each other for a few weeks, we were talking personal stuff and I said " Iv'e got a strange secret if you would like to hear" Looking back, the few weeks before I told her gave her a chance to see if she really liked me, and then when I did, she knew my character was a bit different from the norm, so it came as less of a surprise. It was also early in the relationship and there were no obligations, and by then I trusted her not to tell everyone she met.

You are a special person CJ, Iv'e no doubt the lucky girl who gets you will think she found a hidden treasure.

Love
Rebecca xxx

[Kathy]

This is another of those areas where everyone will have their own opinions and they will be as individual as the people who post them.

I'm not sure there are any right or wrong answers.

As one who has been guilty of this "deception" in the past and paid the price for it, I would have to say that I will be up front from now on. Regardless of how I may feel about the lady or how she may feel about me, other than the crossdressing aspect, if she cannot accept all of me then it would not be fair to either of us to continue to be anything more than just friends.

I, too, have a problem with "selective" honesty. Especially when it concerns someone I would be asking to be my best friend and closest confidant for the rest of my life. In this situation, there is simply no room for secrets. While discretion may be well and good among friends, acquaintences and/or employers, my life partner needs to know what she is in for up front. And it is up to her to decide if she can cope. If not, let us go our own ways now not later.

...such as how we're to deal with the inevitable conflict and emotional distress that will arise out of our struggle to be honest with just one other person, the person who matters most to us in the whole world... our wife... our girlfriend... our life partner... our soulmate... our SO?

Is the struggle really about being honest with our SO or is it really about being honest with ourselves?

[Barbara]

I didnt tell my SO right away because I was one of the many CDs who mistakenly believed that, once I found the right SO, the desire to CD would go away. Once I realized I was wrong, I looked for the first opportunity to tell her. That opportunity sort of fell in my lap -- it was the day she told me her deepest darkest secret (which I wont divulge here). But if she believed in our relationship to the degree that she would let me into the loop, I wouldnt've been able to live with myself if I didnt fess up also.

[MiMi (SO)]

CJ,

You are so insightful, your questions surprise. From The What It's Worth Department here are my humble opinions.

Regrettably, I can't imagine that there is a good time. I do think it's critical to be honest early on. You might remember some of my posts, 20+ years of marital bliss & then - a bag full of surprises, literally. For certain I know that is not a good way to go, even though I can understand how the situation evolves.

Education (the social kind) & past experiences are critical. If all CDers appeared in public enfeme at the same time - oh what a world it would be! We would all begin to learn about preferences and diversification. No matter how open minded we think we are, we all have preconceived notions based on past experiences, or lack there of. Look at us, I really thought you had all the answers.

Given that we are all products of the perception of what we've done & where we've been, and given that my dream to see CDers enfeme in public all at the same time is unrealistic - you (CDers in general), nay - we (SOs & caring non-CDers), have to live up to the challenge of presenting CDers for exactly what & who they are - people. People with preferences, my guess, thinking people. People who have thought of things that most others have not. Think of all the problem solving resources being used on solving problems preconceived notions inflict on CDers. If all those resources where used to do more productive things we probably would be a non-currency using, transporter sharing society. Oh but how I go on!

CJ, the right person would certainly understand that your honesty would be the most basic sign of respect, friendship & trust. But it also has to be the right time for that right person. If this is the first time the right person has ever encountered a person who CDed she will not understand. She will be confused & frightened. CDers have a very difficult education curve to complete. All the stereotyping & secrecy makes your task ever more difficult. I think you would have to created a short, meaningful history together. Because a person has no idea how they are going to react until faced with the facts, I don't think you can predict how a person will react.

I can imagine your life companion would have to be a fun loving, intelligent individual. In so being she will come to delight in your personality, and you in hers. Best Wishes...MiMi

[Kersten Lee]

CJ,
I have no experience, no opinion polls, no one to call on, and no research studies. I love Mimi's thought about the brain power here and the really wide range of our thoughts. I look at most people that can't even formulate a good question as a little simple, rather, they accept what others tell them without reserve. I don't see that in this group including all the wonderfully honest SO's.

I am learning to accept that my opinions have changed and sometimes changed back. I realize I need also to accept that this also is a part of me to reserve the right to change my mind. I have deceived myself also as
someone just said. People, like most of us, that think and consider lofty ideals will be difficult to live with. I am lucky my wife has been able to listen to me rant, rave, cry, laugh in ridicule, swear at those I feel are imbiciles, argue issues with myself or with her if she is willing.

CJ, love is strange. I really can't imagine another woman on earth staying with me all these years. I can't really see you as deliberately sabotaging a relationship. I also have a hard time seeing you as not accepting yourself. The other relationships possibly weren't meant to be.

My opinion is that, date a while and in conversation you should be able to see how her opinions slant on gay issues. The way people, I know, link gayness with cross-dressing, I would think, could be an indicator to acceptance. You already know an infinite number of variables could come to play. Even if you told a girl about cross-dressing on the first date and she was ok or even ecstatic, it could either guarantee success or failure.

My opinion is to date a while, get to know each other, take you best guess if you think she could accept the reality. Tell her when she confides a secret to you, as said by another. If that doesn't arise as things between you turn to a serious relationship, tell her anyway. If she accepts good and if not it will be very painful for you both. I can suggest nothing else.

I feel for your need to be with another. Not everyone does, but I do.
MY marriage at it's worst has been heaven to me, compared to being on my own.

I do hope you find your life partner. Someone wonderful must be there who could love and share this life with you.

I'm a little blue myself,
Kersten

[CJ]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the replies and all the input, folks. It's great to see this kind of support, very heart-warming! I feel I need to point out, though, that, as I was telling a friend just a short while ago, I'm not in the closet. Although I don't dress in public all that often, the people who know me know also that I'm a crossdresser. Even acquaintances know (and I'm hoping this is where I'll meet the one for me, and that she'll be a person who wants this in her life--I know for a fact there are some out there like this). Why does everyone know? Because I was honest about myself... I told them. Oh, not in any "in-your-face" kind of way. Just en passant, very casually. So, for me, it's not a matter of "telling," no, it's a matter of remaining open to the possibilities of encounter.

Anyway, I also want to get things back on track. I don't want this thread to become a focus on my love life. My original intention in starting this topic was to see what our attitudes are concerning the need to be honest and, especially, in what ways we think our dishonesty (for such is what it is) may have impacted our relationships with our SOs.

Keep the posts coming, girls!

Love,
CJ

[Honey(SO)]

Well I will just make a couple comments here. For me I never felt the betryal factor. When my husband of 30 years shared this secret with me, the biggest secret of his life, I of course at first was shocked and upset. I came to understand that when he did tell me it was because he had educated himself and accepted himself for what he is. How could he expect me to accept this if he did not understand and accept it himself.
Once I did my research and educated myself also how could I help but understand the deep closet he had put himself in all these years.

I would probably have liked to know about this sooner than 30 years into our marriage, but to be truthfull maybe we both needed to build up a very strong marriage before this could be part of it, so strong that this could not break it.
I would agree that I would not tell a new girlfriend right away about your cross dressing. Neither of you have any investment in your relationship yet. There is a point in a new relationship when things just click, then is the time to have a talk, but expect to educate also. And since you are at a point where you are educated and are comfortable with who you are then you must tell before anything permanat happens in the relationship.
But I think just like my husband shared with me take it easy and don't dump it all onto her at one time-work your way up to the full deal.

The first question I asked my husband when he told me was 'are you gay?' well of course after 30+ year and 4 children I knew he was not gay.
You cannot have an intimate relationship for that long and not know this. But the only thing I knew about CD's was from drag shows I had seen and the way hollywood usually shows CD/s in movies.

Unless a future partner seeks you out as a crossdresser, there are some that do, then be sensitive about how and when you do it. But for sure do tell.
Honey

[Curly(SO)]

Very wise words Honey!

I too did not feel betrayed, for the same reasons as you. I was actually told quite a lot sooner than you (two years into our marriage) but you are absolutely bang on with what you say!

I will add no more, as you have said what I was thinking, and my dinner is almost done

Love, Curly(SO)

[Kersten Lee]

Hi CJ,
I read all the messages again. Honey explained very well her feelings at the time. What Honey said, when she asked automatically, are you gay
goes to the views I have been having about the importance of gay issues for us. Those whom I associate with on a daily basis equate cross-dressing with gayness. I don't know anyone who is educated on cd characteristics other than health care and therapy giving individuals. And Yes, I do know there are bigoted people in all areas of life or level of education.

Honesty is the issue, you said. If you were gay and wanted to marry and have children to cover for perceived advantages in our society, would it be ok to lie. I say no, even though you thought you could learn to love that special woman in a sexual way. We have heard many times here how cds marry believing this woman would cure them of the need to cd. I think that is wrong. I am not judging anyone as I have enough issues for any two people.

Honey, I believe is in the minority of woman who love and accept so quickly after learning about their husbands. We know how much time and space is spent here by cds and sos alike on how do we get the other partner to believe a belief and need. (Each trying to convince the other)
Honey displayed how deeply they have gotten to love each other to be able to forgive, love and then support. I think that Sharon and Shannon started and support this forum for us in a quest for some of their own questions. A need we most have to grow our own relationships and our own self awareness.

There was a thread a while back, if you could take a pill and not want to cd, would we? The same was asked of sos. Most cds would not and the wives mostly would wish the husband would quit if they could still be the same husband. I think we know that women who would openly like having a cding husband are in a smaller minority than us cross-dressers. I would guess probably a lot fewer than lesbian.

As I said in the earlier message, morally there would be no need to explain the cding up front because it is a non issue. When is telling the truth a sin? When we deliberately want to cause harm to ourselves or another. When is it wrong to not tell the truth? When we cross the line that it will cause harm to another or ourself by not telling the truth.

When things develope to a point where you can see she is thinking she might want a life with you, or you with her, it is time to be honest. Is it practical? Probably not with most woman. How many woman, as I said earlier, would accept a life of cross-dressing with a potential partner. Does the end justify the means. You will have to decide that yourself.

with love,
kersten

[CJ]

Hi all,

Again, wonderful posts and replies.

Still, I don't want this to become merely another "when is the right time to tell?" thread. No, I want to know how our dishonesty has affected or impacted our relationship with our SO.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: given that we've "deceived" our SOs in this most important regard, are there any valid reasons for them to ever trust us again, in what we either say or do? If so, how do we go about regaining their trust? This seems to me to be an important issue; it crops up over and over again when I listen to the SOs here, on the forum.

I realize I probably should've named the topic something else--the title is misleading. I just didn't want to name it something lame, like "Honesty--Part Deux" or some such.

Reactions like Honey's and Curly's seem to be, as Kersten pointed out, exceptions rather than the rule. What can we do to make them the rule rather than the exception? Is there even anything we can do, once the damage is done?

Any thoughts?

Love,
CJ

[SophieLawson]

Awww, this is something that I dont like about cross dressing either.

I'm actually most of the time scared of getting really close to anybody for fear of hurting them or losing them. Hopefully soon it'll all change and we can just all be ourselves without any worries.

Sophie xx

[Kay(SO)]

CJ,

How is it that all the good stuff happens while I'm too busy to read and post!! I can't believe how wonderful this post is. I'm simply going to have to get here more often so I don't miss all of this good stuff!

You asked: Is there really such a thing as "a good time" to become honest with our SOs concerning our crossdressing?

I couldn't agree more with your own response when you said, " And, if there's no such thing as an ideal time to 'fess up, then why don't we do it from the very beginning of the relationship? Wouldn't this be the most basic sign of respect, friendship, and, especially, trust, toward our potential mate? Wouldn't this give her a chance to decide, fully, for herself whether or not she wants to be partnered with a CD? "

This just blew me away because it couldn't be more on the money! It's WHY women who find out years into the relationship get so angry. Because they feel betrayed, not trusted and not respected. Those things are much harder to get past then the dressing itself. Also, they would like to have had the chance to choose for themselves if they want to live with CDing. Not find out way down the road after you've spent a lifetime, had kids together, etc... It makes them feel like they've never known you at all. Like you're some kind of stranger. And then it makes them wonder what else you've kept from them all of those years. Believe me, this is a constant topic on the wifes only lists.

You also asked: "Is it possible that all our discussions and preoccupations, here, about the broader social issues facing transgendered individuals are a "smokescreen" of some sort that allows us to avoid facing matters of a more personal nature"

This is soooo excellent, your intuitiveness (if that's a word) amazes me. When this category first got started way back when, DO YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL, it was started so that we could discuss those in depth feelings, SO to CD'r. I've noticed that when I've posted something of a deep feeling nature, somewhere along the way my original topic gets blown away by other less feeling discussions. What I started talking about and wanting input on gets ignored or turned into something more on the surface or political. And not just my posts. So, I've gotten into the habit of going back to read the original post and answering that post instead of chiming in on where it ended up. Does that make sense? And the thing is, I know the SO's kind of function on that deeper level in our SO's section. Not to say that there aren't those who can and do too, I just feel inspired by the fact that you picked up on this and wrote about it! Thanks for the post and for provoking so many minds, especially mine.

Oh and by the way, I was one of the lucky ones. My husband told me before we ever went on our first date and gave me the opportunity to decide for myself whether I wanted to be with him. We've been together now nearly 7 years and married for 3. I value everyday that he told me upfront and spared me the distress of finding out later.

Kersten, you wrote: Even if you told a girl about cross-dressing on the first date and she was ok or even ecstatic, it could either guarantee success or failure.

Just a thought and I respect that this is your opinion; there's never a guarentee that any relationship will work out but if told in the beginning and upfront, at least your relationship will be based on trust and honesty instead of secrets and deception. You will find that most women would prefer the truth and deserve it upfront rather than as you said, "When things develope to a point where you can see she is thinking she might want a life with you, or you with her, it is time to be honest."

If a woman does not accept crossdressing then that's the consequence you have to deal with. But she deserves the right to choose and decide with the knowledge and honesty upfront. Deception is usually fear based and driven and because of your fears, an SO might not get the right to make her own choices. Is that fair and a healthy way to start a long-term relationship? Not through my eyes, but that's just me.


Kay(SO)

[Jassmine(SO)]

Hi CJ,

Excellent thread! I personally feel that in order to have a happy relationship, there must be complete honesty on both sides early on. I do understand, the fear associated with being honest about CDing or any other core personallity trait, that is outside the accepted norm. The main fear is of being rejected. But it is only fair to the other person to let them know of these traits before the relationship gets serious. Ahzz told me a week into our dating and I was honest about my sexual needs and other desires that fall outside the norm at the same time.

As to the trust issue, for the SOs who feel betrayed (which is completely understandable), all they can really do is give their mate the benefit of the doubt and hope he will be honest with them from that point on. And I also feel that just because an SO wasn't honest about their CDing, that it doesn't nesseccarally mean that they have been, or will be dishonest about other things.

I also think tht many, many, people get into relationships for the wrong reasons. They haven't taken the neccessary time to get to know and accept themselves first, so how can they possibly know what they want and need in another? I have made this mistake in the past and so has Ahzz. Taking the time to be alone and get to know oneself and be happy on your own, I feel is critical to having a good relationship. Noone should count on another to make them happy, the other person cannot do this. True happiness comes from knowing, accepting, and being at peace with oneself.

Know thyself and to thine own self be true

*Hugs*