I understand what you are saying Danielle but we will never know "the other side" here on this forum. I judge neither Elizabeth nor his wife. I can only trust and hope that appropriate decisions will be made.
I simply offer Elizabeth what limited support I am able within the context of this forum.
Beginning of the end
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Kathy
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Danielle La Belle
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An interesting point of view.
While I am sure that Elizabeth is a fine person, 10 will get you 20 that she knows what I have been talking about here.
Pancakes and waffles have two sides, one side can be golden brown and the other, chared beyond recognition, still a fluffy center exists between the two points of view.
Walk a mile in my shoes ......
Hugs
Danielle Marie
While I am sure that Elizabeth is a fine person, 10 will get you 20 that she knows what I have been talking about here.
Pancakes and waffles have two sides, one side can be golden brown and the other, chared beyond recognition, still a fluffy center exists between the two points of view.
Walk a mile in my shoes ......
Hugs
Danielle Marie
Make the most of every day!
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Kathy
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Hmmmmm... walk a mile in your shoes...
...walk a mile in Julie M.'s shoes - she is going through her own hellish time but both sides have agreed to seek the fluffy center.
...walk a mile in Deborah's shoes - again both sides seeking the fluffy center.
...walk a mile in my shoes - a marriage that should never have happened in the first place; divorce was the only viable option.
...walk a mile in my sister's shoes - she and her 1st husband simply agreed that parting was the best option; they are still great friends and he is a welcome visitor in my parents' home when he is in the area.
...walk a mile in my parents' shoes - still together after sixty two years and have never spoken to a counselor.
I am very familiar with the concept of smashed dishes, slammed doors, valuable collectables pulverized and food stained walls.
I am very familiar with the words "I'm sorry" and the hugs and kisses and love that shines through in the aftermath.
I know of the fluffy center of which you speak. Some are able to find that center, some are not. I cannot judge Elizabeth or his wife as I cannot "walk a mile in their shoes". As it is only Elizabeth's "voice" I hear it is only Elizabeth I can offer support to. And only the limited support possible in the context of this forum.
I cannot walk a mile in your shoes nor can you walk a mile in mine. But we can observe. We can learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others. We can celebrate the successes and learn from them as well.
But the only person I can judge is myself.
...walk a mile in Julie M.'s shoes - she is going through her own hellish time but both sides have agreed to seek the fluffy center.
...walk a mile in Deborah's shoes - again both sides seeking the fluffy center.
...walk a mile in my shoes - a marriage that should never have happened in the first place; divorce was the only viable option.
...walk a mile in my sister's shoes - she and her 1st husband simply agreed that parting was the best option; they are still great friends and he is a welcome visitor in my parents' home when he is in the area.
...walk a mile in my parents' shoes - still together after sixty two years and have never spoken to a counselor.
I am very familiar with the concept of smashed dishes, slammed doors, valuable collectables pulverized and food stained walls.
I am very familiar with the words "I'm sorry" and the hugs and kisses and love that shines through in the aftermath.
I know of the fluffy center of which you speak. Some are able to find that center, some are not. I cannot judge Elizabeth or his wife as I cannot "walk a mile in their shoes". As it is only Elizabeth's "voice" I hear it is only Elizabeth I can offer support to. And only the limited support possible in the context of this forum.
I cannot walk a mile in your shoes nor can you walk a mile in mine. But we can observe. We can learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others. We can celebrate the successes and learn from them as well.
But the only person I can judge is myself.
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
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Elizabeth
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Hi girls,
This is the deal, as far as I am concerned. It takes two to tango, and I sure if you talked to my wife she could tell you all my negatives. But from my perspective, I have treated her great. I have always loved her, and been there for her. I will give her, her own way one more time, by giving her a divorce.
I do still love her, but it is now apparent that I am never going to be able to make her happy. She went off her anti-depressants without consulting her doctor, and says she don't need them. What I have seen is a steady deterioration of our relationship since that time.
As for what Danielle says, I agree, the gun is loaded and pointed, and if my wife seriously wanted to work things out, I would try. I think that is highly unlikely though. Every relationship I have ever had has ended with me feeling hurt and not understanding why the other person treated me in a way I would never do to them. I think I just feel things deeper than others, and expect them to feel as I do. I am always surprised when they don't.
I have decided that I will not let this make me cynical and bitter. I will still give of myself, and I am sure in the future I will feel more heartache. A small price to pay for the joy I feel when I feel loved by others, even if short lived. But at least now, I love myself.
Love always,
Elizabeth
This is the deal, as far as I am concerned. It takes two to tango, and I sure if you talked to my wife she could tell you all my negatives. But from my perspective, I have treated her great. I have always loved her, and been there for her. I will give her, her own way one more time, by giving her a divorce.
I do still love her, but it is now apparent that I am never going to be able to make her happy. She went off her anti-depressants without consulting her doctor, and says she don't need them. What I have seen is a steady deterioration of our relationship since that time.
As for what Danielle says, I agree, the gun is loaded and pointed, and if my wife seriously wanted to work things out, I would try. I think that is highly unlikely though. Every relationship I have ever had has ended with me feeling hurt and not understanding why the other person treated me in a way I would never do to them. I think I just feel things deeper than others, and expect them to feel as I do. I am always surprised when they don't.
I have decided that I will not let this make me cynical and bitter. I will still give of myself, and I am sure in the future I will feel more heartache. A small price to pay for the joy I feel when I feel loved by others, even if short lived. But at least now, I love myself.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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Kathy
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Loretta Ann
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Hi all,
Danielle, I for one feel that I have walked closer than anyone here in Elisabeth's shoes, being as I have come through a similar background.
And I have seen far more than I will ever put on paper here, from reading Elisabeth's Posts.
The way I see it is that it is Elisabeth that has come here for support, His wife has not. There is nothing we can do about that. If the other side wants support she will have to reach out for it as Elisabeth has.
Therefore we can only support her, it needs to be her/his decision which way she will go. If she should make a wrong choice I will still support her, as long as I feel she is genuinely trying to become a better person.
When I reached out for support I was lucky that there were people that would do that for me, as I made mistakes and so will she. Without that kind of support I don't think she will make it, I know I would not have.
In closing I want to support the words of a previous poster in this thread.
If one is seeking a relationship with the idea that it is there duty to look after the other person, that partnership will not be healthy. One needs to be able to be secure and content enough to live by themselves before they will be secure enough to live with a mate, in a way that is healthy. And if one is secure enough to live by themselves they will realize this on there own.
Danielle, I for one feel that I have walked closer than anyone here in Elisabeth's shoes, being as I have come through a similar background.
And I have seen far more than I will ever put on paper here, from reading Elisabeth's Posts.
The way I see it is that it is Elisabeth that has come here for support, His wife has not. There is nothing we can do about that. If the other side wants support she will have to reach out for it as Elisabeth has.
Therefore we can only support her, it needs to be her/his decision which way she will go. If she should make a wrong choice I will still support her, as long as I feel she is genuinely trying to become a better person.
When I reached out for support I was lucky that there were people that would do that for me, as I made mistakes and so will she. Without that kind of support I don't think she will make it, I know I would not have.
In closing I want to support the words of a previous poster in this thread.
If one is seeking a relationship with the idea that it is there duty to look after the other person, that partnership will not be healthy. One needs to be able to be secure and content enough to live by themselves before they will be secure enough to live with a mate, in a way that is healthy. And if one is secure enough to live by themselves they will realize this on there own.
Last edited by Loretta Ann on Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Danielle La Belle
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Girls, you make the job of "devil's advocate" pretty difficult sometimes. It is nice to see that everyone that wrote recently, was supportive for Elizabeth. I must say that I feel for her spouse, if she is off her anti-depressent medication. My son is a bi-polar personality and so is my spouse. Neither are on medication and times can be like a roller coaster. That is what happens to bi-polar people, up higher than a kite, then down lower than low. This cycling varies but is consistent with their condition over their expected lifetime. No cure for this personality disorder.
Hugs
Danielle Marie
Hugs
Danielle Marie
Make the most of every day!
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Marda
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DOCTOR DOCTOR OH MR MD CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT'S AILIN' ME
Good evening ladies
You spoke for me Danielle ... prescribed medication for depression or other such mental health situations is not something to mess with *behind the doctor's back*
I *experimented* cutting back my medication last Christmas while my doctor was away and within less than a month I was getting feedback from a couple of trusted therapy program mates that I *wasn't myself* to them ... I learned my lesson ... I was *trying* to "learn my lesson", *Not* *play* "doctor"
"Playing doctor" is like "tempting the devil" ... even God does not play that cunning fool's game ...
Of course I agree with much of what the other's have said here as well :-)
But on the medication issue, I believe Elizabeth has been living with the devil's dancing partner and *needs* to get away for the best of the "family"
Unless you've been on medication (which can require months to be weaned from if the doctor agrees to go that way) I believe it's pretty much impossible to comment on what that's really all about.
CJ - you must have some knowledge of this issue ???
Love / Marda
You spoke for me Danielle ... prescribed medication for depression or other such mental health situations is not something to mess with *behind the doctor's back*
I *experimented* cutting back my medication last Christmas while my doctor was away and within less than a month I was getting feedback from a couple of trusted therapy program mates that I *wasn't myself* to them ... I learned my lesson ... I was *trying* to "learn my lesson", *Not* *play* "doctor"
"Playing doctor" is like "tempting the devil" ... even God does not play that cunning fool's game ...
Of course I agree with much of what the other's have said here as well :-)
But on the medication issue, I believe Elizabeth has been living with the devil's dancing partner and *needs* to get away for the best of the "family"
Unless you've been on medication (which can require months to be weaned from if the doctor agrees to go that way) I believe it's pretty much impossible to comment on what that's really all about.
CJ - you must have some knowledge of this issue ???
Love / Marda
~ Some drink at the fountain of knowledge - Others just gargle ~
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Loretta Ann
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Danielle La Belle
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I will admit in this thread that I have taken more than one verbal beating over the bi-polar issue. I had to decide to either deal with this or not. I chose to deal with it at each bridge. I have seen way to many bridges, 
.....
Elizabeth has to do what she feels is right. She must live it, so she must take the brunt of the real event. I do not envy her this task. I am less courageous and avoid the "final event" by continuing my efforts to resolve issues as they pop up. Sometimes that is easier than facing the "music."
As we age into a long term relationship, sometimes divorce becomes a non-issue as personal comfort and disliking the idea of starting over alone can be enough to turn one's hair white and discourage one from pursuing such solutions.
Time and it's limitations can be a very real task master, moving into the "twilight years." At age 55, I see the lights up ahead, trying to steer clear of any obstacles that will derail our relationship, is a full time job these days.
Hugs
Danielle Marie
.....Elizabeth has to do what she feels is right. She must live it, so she must take the brunt of the real event. I do not envy her this task. I am less courageous and avoid the "final event" by continuing my efforts to resolve issues as they pop up. Sometimes that is easier than facing the "music."
As we age into a long term relationship, sometimes divorce becomes a non-issue as personal comfort and disliking the idea of starting over alone can be enough to turn one's hair white and discourage one from pursuing such solutions.
Time and it's limitations can be a very real task master, moving into the "twilight years." At age 55, I see the lights up ahead, trying to steer clear of any obstacles that will derail our relationship, is a full time job these days.
Hugs
Danielle Marie
Make the most of every day!
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Elizabeth
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Danielle,
Yes, it is scary. That is one of the reasons to do it, so I can stop being afraid. I have been paralized by fear for so long that I made concessions about my personal happiness that left me empty.
Afraid of divorce, afraid of what would happen to my kids, afraid of ending up alone. And so on and so on. There is almost an endless amount of things that I have absolutely no control over, to be afraid of the outcome.
I have come to beleive that I just feels things deeper than most people I have had relationships with. I always feel stronger about it than the other person. This includes most of my 7 siblings, my parents, most of my best friends thoughout my life, every girl friend I ever had, and now my wife. They all have remained my friend or partner until it was no longer economically, or emotionally advantageous to them, then terminated our relationship.
This can not be a coincedence. I would never do that to someone. But still it keeps happening to me, and I guess it always will. I refuse to become cynical because everyone else is. While it is obvious I need to stop putting myself in a position to stop being used, it feels really nice to help people. Even if there are those who are gonna rip me off, I will not stop helping others.
My continued appearances on this forum makes it apparent that there are many others like me, and not just about crossdressing, but about a need to help others, even after having bad experiences in the past. So many here have just poured thier hearts out here, including you.
Yes, it is scary not knowing what is going to happen, but I know whatever happens, it has to be better than what I had before. And that is what I beleive. There is no finality to anything. I mean, lots of people remarry and some even remarry thier old mate. The only thing final in this life, is death. So until then, it's time to get happy.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Yes, it is scary. That is one of the reasons to do it, so I can stop being afraid. I have been paralized by fear for so long that I made concessions about my personal happiness that left me empty.
Afraid of divorce, afraid of what would happen to my kids, afraid of ending up alone. And so on and so on. There is almost an endless amount of things that I have absolutely no control over, to be afraid of the outcome.
I have come to beleive that I just feels things deeper than most people I have had relationships with. I always feel stronger about it than the other person. This includes most of my 7 siblings, my parents, most of my best friends thoughout my life, every girl friend I ever had, and now my wife. They all have remained my friend or partner until it was no longer economically, or emotionally advantageous to them, then terminated our relationship.
This can not be a coincedence. I would never do that to someone. But still it keeps happening to me, and I guess it always will. I refuse to become cynical because everyone else is. While it is obvious I need to stop putting myself in a position to stop being used, it feels really nice to help people. Even if there are those who are gonna rip me off, I will not stop helping others.
My continued appearances on this forum makes it apparent that there are many others like me, and not just about crossdressing, but about a need to help others, even after having bad experiences in the past. So many here have just poured thier hearts out here, including you.
Yes, it is scary not knowing what is going to happen, but I know whatever happens, it has to be better than what I had before. And that is what I beleive. There is no finality to anything. I mean, lots of people remarry and some even remarry thier old mate. The only thing final in this life, is death. So until then, it's time to get happy.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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SophieLawson
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I know that feeling all too well, it's not fair is it...Elizabeth wrote:Danielle,
Yes, it is scary. That is one of the reasons to do it, so I can stop being afraid. I have been paralized by fear for so long that I made concessions about my personal happiness that left me empty.
WAHOOOOO, that's more like itElizabeth wrote:
The only thing final in this life, is death. So until then, it's time to get happy.
*pulls a party popper * lolSophie xx
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Jassmine(SO)
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I can kind of relate to what Elizabeth is going through. My ex-husband, while not bi-polar, would turn into a completely different person under the influence of alcohol. No alcohol, wonderful man, with alcohol very abusive. Did he wish to seek help, unfortunately, he did not. I stuck it out with him for 15 years. Why? I thought I could change him, he was a very kind person off alcohol, it was easier to keep the status quo, the thought of leaving him scared the daylights out of me: How would I survive on my own? I feared the pain it would put my daughter through, he had been her step-dad since she was 3. For me divorcing him was the only way to reclaim myself and my life. It does indeed take two to tango, only he wasn't working at resolving his issues that were causing problems in our relationship. I felt I was fighting an uphill battle on my own. I couldn't save my marriage on my own, so I choose to save myself. I hated hurting him, but I couldn't continue hurting myself any longer. My ex and I are still friends, and I hope and pray that he will eventually get the help he needs, so he can have a happy life.
Elizabeth wrote;
*Hugs*
Elizabeth wrote;
I couldn't agree more.The only thing final in this life, is death. So until then, it's time to get happy.
*Hugs*
Blessings Eternal, Jassmine
"Love is unconditional acceptance. That quality is also our essential nature, who we really are."
--Peter Shepherd
"Love is unconditional acceptance. That quality is also our essential nature, who we really are."
--Peter Shepherd
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Danielle La Belle
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I was raised in a weekly mass attending Roman Catholic environment and attended Catholic Parochial School and High school. I think that while this type of initial education was beneficial to me, it also deposited a mega amount of self-doubt, and of course a healthy portion of negative thinking about anything that did not coincide with the Church teachings.
It is like being raised in the Army. You come away from the experience carrying all the rules and regulations on your back. Never really ever rid of them. You act and react based on this information without ever really questioning why.
I have been in a retrospective mood lately as some of these things begin to surface. I will be considering these thoughts more seriously in the future as I try to separate myself from rules that no longer serve me. It is always an eye opening experience in this forum. Hearing from others, saying out loud what you are feeling or thinking internally.
Hugs
Danielle Marie
It is like being raised in the Army. You come away from the experience carrying all the rules and regulations on your back. Never really ever rid of them. You act and react based on this information without ever really questioning why.
I have been in a retrospective mood lately as some of these things begin to surface. I will be considering these thoughts more seriously in the future as I try to separate myself from rules that no longer serve me. It is always an eye opening experience in this forum. Hearing from others, saying out loud what you are feeling or thinking internally.
Hugs
Danielle Marie
Make the most of every day!