When Religious Discussions Attack

[Marda]

Ladies All

Vicki, with your permission
Beauty, CJ

It's my belief there's an atmosphere of calm present here now

With *greatest* respect ...

Kersten Lee, it seems you have helped us elevate the level of this "discussion" into the realm of *Experience*

Perhaps there is no *saying* what "It *feels* like to be a woman"

Perhaps that's what we're learning here?

Perhaps there is only *"Feeling" what it feels like to be a woman*

May I offer with full and sincere respect to *all* women, that Kersten Lee has help lead us into the *Realm of a Woman's Experience* ?

Views on this concept would be greatly appreciated ... especially at this time by our dear "SO" friends / fellow Earthlings

Love / Marda

[CJ]

Hmmm, why do I suddenly feel left out?

[Jassmine(SO)]

Hey People:)

Marda wrote:

Perhaps there is no *saying* what "It *feels* like to be a woman"

Well, being a woman you would think that I may be able to describe what it feels like. Alas, I cannot. You see, I do not fit the general womens' description, except externally. Yes, I am an emtional being, but I control my emotions, and I tend to use logic far more often. I don't pay attention to the latest styles, nor do I fuss with make-up. I would much rather watch an action flick, than a (for lack of a better term) "chic flick". I guess, all I can do is describe what it feels like to be me I am just a fellow human being trying to survive and be happy in this life.

*Hugs*

[Marda]

Hi CJ

I'm "feeling" a pretty intense *pull* by your "Hmmmmmmm"
(It "feels" as though you're "hurting")

The expression in your avatar "pulls" even more

Can you say what is "bundled" up with yur "left out" feeling ???

Love / Marda

[Elizabeth]

CJ,

I also share interest in why you are feeling left out? Usually you are leading the charge. Could you tell us why you are feeling left out? I really look forward to your posts, and feeling left out was not a post I was looking forward to, but instead made me feel a twinge of sadness.

Let loose girl, tell us what is up? We are all here for each other, and feeling left out is not a part of therapy.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[CJ]

Hi all,

Well, it's simple, really. And I'll preface this post by saying that I value each and every person's right to deal with "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" in a way they best see fit. This variety in attitudes and beliefs is part of the complexity of human culture. It's something I cherish.

Yet, I find that, lately, I'm less and less able to recognize my own spiritual concerns on the forum. I rarely talk about religious or spiritual matters (and even then, only if asked) not because it could open doors to flame wars--we're all adults, here--but, rather, because my relationship to whatever may be an "ultimate concern" to me is personal, ineffable, and very difficult (if not impossible) to put into words.

Now, I know that many of you here are religious and, as I said above, I will never, ever begrudge anyone the exercise and the avowal of those beliefs that spiritually sustain them. Heck! I'm actually a fan of all matters religious--I even massively indebted myself in order to pursue a B.A. in Religious Studies!

Still, as a non-religious, rather more agnostic, person--a humanist--I find that the exclusionary language that's so much a trademark of religious thinking is hurtful. True, I may not be a Child of a Good, Kind, Great, God, but I don't suppose that this makes my own very human struggles any less significant. I will never believe myself (nor believe anyone else) to be disqualified from accessing some present or future bliss merely for lack of traditional religious faith (and I stress the word "traditional," here). I sometimes get the feeling that those who do believe (and, again, all the more power to them) consider the non-religious ill-suited to be a part of the vanguard striving for enlightenment, whether it be social or personal in nature.

The truth is, I don't know how to respond to a religious post. It's as though we were speaking a different language. I mean, what can I possibly say? Onward, Christian Soldier? No, I can't. It's not who I am. I respect the right of others to believe what they will but I, for one, don't feel the need to participate in any kind of religious fellowship or community. Sorry.

Again, just to be clear on this, I find that all religions (although often a source of conflict, as Elizabeth pointed out in another thread) have something to contribute to our understanding of ourselves and of our place in the world, even if it's only by means of the stories we like to tell ourselves regarding who we are, what the world is, what death is, what lies beyond, etc., etc. I've dug deep in the Tanakh, in the Christian Bible, in the Qur'an, in the Vedas, in the Dhammapada, in the Pali Canon, in the Tao-Te-Ching, in the Analects, and in the various oral traditions of tribal peoples, both African and American; they all, without exception, contain a wonderful wisdom for the ages, both past and future. But I don't believe in God. And I know that many of you do.

Now, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here. Far from it. But, both by the many religious posts I read here as well as a few private messages I've received hinting at my inability to understand what "God" has in store for me, I'm feeling increasingly alienated. I've been on the receiving end of too many religious conversion attempts in my life to take this matter lightly anymore. If the forum is to become a Christian Crossdressers Forum, well, that's fine, I have no objections (I mean, after all I've said above, how could I object?) but it will do so without me.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone, and if I appear to be unnecessarily harsh about this, but it's something I feel strongly about. Plus, it's just bringing back really bad memories for me--and, yes, they all have to do with the fact that I've always categorically refused to consider myself a person soiled, vitiated, poisoned, and flawed from my birth onwards. In the interest of my own well-being, it's a belief I just cannot subscribe to.

I also understand that this may make me unfit to be a moderator, here. I accept that, too.

May you all walk in your own light (or in the light of your choosing).

Love,
CJ

[VickiCD]

Ladies..

As always, it is a delight to hear your oppinions or feedback regarding the many topics I usually start.

Now CJ, what going on honey? I tought there might have been something related within this section that upset you, or something that might of effected your emotions, due to what has been expressed by the other ladies. If this is the case sweetie, please tell us so. I went over this area many times, (in hopes to come to the conclusion based on your reaction.) trying to analize the information that was presented here. And I must admit, I'm at a lost.

You are very special to all of us, so please open yourself and express your feelings...we all want to know what's troubling you. And if my interpretaions where incorrect - I appoligize in advance.

Love

VickiCD

[Kathy]

Hi CJ,

I think I can understand at least a bit of what you are saying. I too do not believe in God. At least not in the Biblical sense. I don't subscribe to any of the current religions. I have not studied religious texts as you have but I have at least examined some of the ones you mentioned.

When I read a "religious" post I read the words, gather the meaning behind the words as best I can and write my response in my own way to express my own feelings on the topic. I have used the term God a time or two as it seemed appropriate to make a point.

I would have to agree that if this was to become, as you say, the Christian Crossdressers Forum, I too would soon vacate. But I don't believe that is what is happening here.

As the forum grows, we should expect to see new members from all walks of life and all faiths and we should welcome them as we have welcomed all of the current membership. People need to be able to express themselves in whatever manner they are comfortable with or the forum will become meaningless.

On the other hand, I have not received any PMs as you have. I'm not certain what exactly I would respond to such a message. I would certainly hope that a courteous and sincere "Thank you but that isn't how I believe" kind of response would be enough to let someone know where your boundaries are. Repeat offenders should be reported to the admins and/or other moderators to be dealt with by whatever means they deem appropriate.

I would sincerely miss having you among us. Your posts are always thoughtful, insightful, informative. You have had a tremendous impact on my life in the short time I have been here.

But, as I have said to others here, only you can know what is right for you and I will respect whatever you decide to do.

[Marda]

Hi Ladies

Thank You Thank You Thank You Sooooo Much

I do solemnly swear ....

Religious *NOT* ... Religion *NOT*

SPIRITUAL *Yes* ...

Formerly (briefly) a Funeral Director ... I served people of *All* Faiths and people of *No* Faith ... I learned from them all

One of the more *Bizarre* aspects of my work was "Hiring" a "Rental Reverend" for the families who occasionally (once per generation) contemplated *life after The Simpsons*

It was common knowledge in the Death Industry that we dealt with 3 branches of Human existence ... Physical (body) ... Mental (administrative, documentation, identification, vital statistics, government, society etc) ... and Spiritual (whaaaa??)

The Fine & Late Great Reverend Henry Taudin Chabot used to tell a story in his presentation ...

"If you're watching TV and the power supply goes out ... you have no more picture and no more sound ... does *that* mean the *program* stopped? ... No, it just means you can't *see & hear* it any more" ...

The story was particularly reassuring to the children, grandchildren of dearly beloved Grandma

It matters *not* to me what anyone believes ... as a bass player I like to think about bass Gods like "Jaco" and "Chuck" and "Paul" ...

Canadian Westcoast Native People refer to the *Great One*, but alas, if I mention *that* term, everyone in the WOM will think I'm talking about a hockey player

Christianity is only one theme ... I have a *basic* awareness of where in the Bible to locate some *thoughts* which help me illustrate theoretical concepts

Unfortunately in the WOM, "Globalization Division", *Branding* is the *Hot* *Concept du Jour*

How can I say *NoBrandGod* ???

*Add LOVE & Stir* over low heat to taste

CJ - I *DO* THANK YOU for *almost Not Speaking out* here

You were pulling my HeartStrings something *Fierce* here my Dear ... You Rascal You :-)

Ladies ... Please *Help* clarify what I'm saying here ???

If *I* wanted "Christian CrossDressers" I certainly would *Not* have stopped here ... I stopped here because "My God of My Universe" helped me understand *This Is The Place For Me* ... *Here With All Of You* = *All Of US* ... EH???

Love / Marda

*** "... don't proselytize" *** CJ ***

[CJ]

Hi all,

Vicki, Kathy,

Thanks for your replies. And thanks also for pulling me back a little from all this. Yes, I'll admit I'm feeling a little defensive right now. (Is the moderator cracking under the strain? No.)

In my time, I've associated with people from all faiths and from all walks of life and feel comfortable with all of them. Some things I have trouble with, though. Religious browbeating is one of them.

I was once fired from a job I loved because my boss--a religious person--found out I enjoyed reading horror fiction and dark fantasy (he didn't want the demons sitting on my shoulders to feel at home in his restaurant). This man had also previously invited me to his home for a "friendly" supper. As it turns out, there were already twelve people there, all from his church. They spent the next hour and a half trying to get me to mend my evil, secular ways. They ganged up on me for the glory of God. I was out the door before dessert was served. Although he apologized the following day for the way he and his friends treated me, I told him that if ever such an event occured again, he'd be looking to hire a new manager. From that day on, and until he actually fired me, he excluded me from his life and barely managed to remain civil when it came to the operation of his business (in which I played a central role).

There were also many other instances where I was subjected to a kind of institutionalized shunning because of mismatched spiritual beliefs. Now, just like pretty much all of you here, I'm very sensitive to the issue of exclusion--social, psychological, sexual, religious, or otherwise. The funny thing is, I consider myself a deeply religious person (in the best sense of the word--as one who feels "attached," anchored to a deeper reality); how ironic that I be made to feel as though, by not adhering to a specific religious tradition, I somehow forfeit my right to be included in the great adventure of the human spirit. I'll have none of it.

Wow! I'm actually angry right now. Something I haven't felt in a while.

You know me, though: Be... and let be.

It's just that this forum is the last place I would expect to face exclusion.

Yes, Kathy, I, too, have used the term "God" in a general way in order to make a point or to convey a feeling. And, yes, absolutely, people should feel free to express their thoughts and opinions in whatever way comes naturally to them. I do so. You do so. Others should do so, too. But, if I can no longer understand what a person is saying without taking three years of Sunday Bible classes, I'll start feeling that no communication is then possible between that person and myself. The more I'm faced with this private language, the less I feel dialogue can occur and, although I own three different versions of the Bible, I long ago stopped reaching for them every time a religious person spoke in cryptic chapter and verse numbers instead of with words. That leaves me out of the loop. So be it.

So, just to recap:

1) Though my feelings belong to me alone, I bristle at facing exclusion, especially here, merely for religious reasons;
2) Faith is a private language; I don't share it; I cannot understand what's being said;
3) I'm not pointing at any specific person, here; it's a general feeling of being submerged in God-talk, both publicly and privately

I will never shy away from talking about religion; the religious impulse is a core aspect of who we are, along with our physical and emotional needs and wants. But don't proselytize. For the reasons mentioned in the opening paragraphs above, it rubs me the wrong way.

Who knows? maybe I'll feel better about all this tomorrow.

Shanti,
CJ

[CJ]

Hi all,

Well, it's only four minutes later, and I already feel better.

Marda,

Thank you so much for your post. I loved every word of it. I think I'll be turning down the "crankiness" level a bit. I apologize if I gave you (or anyone else) a cold sweat. My buttons respond to hair-trigger pressures, these days (maybe I wasn't quite yet ready to go back to work, who knows?).

Yes, you belong here with us. Just as I do. Just as we all do. Thanks for setting me straight on this.

Love,
CJ

[Marda]

CJ, Ladies, Fellow Earthlings

Hmmmmmm

These 3 colours ... * Blue * Red * Green * ... have become my friends ... they are soooo convenient ... except for those with specific "eyesight" issues (sincere apologies to those) these colours are universal

You know I've referred to my humble "3 colour" concept on the general issue of "gender identification"

Well I also have an application in terms of "self identification"

CJ has raised some very good points ... and let's face it ... it's been "Me - Moi" who has been waving the "God" flag lately ... and I'm *not* ashamed of that ... I am very *Serious* about getting *Out* of the "Eyeball" deep *Muck* the WOM has *Stuck Itself* in

My continuous references to a "Greater Universal Power" are my way of reinforcing my challenge to the world to prove to me that I have to see everything in F*** Black & White all the time

Is anybody here gonna cash in their Colour VDT or FlatScreen for an old VT100 terminal ... I rather doubt it

Why on Planet Earth then would we be satisfied to limit ourselves to some concepts pertaining to our core being, which have obviously been outdated for hundreds of years

Most of the ignorance (which leads to hate, bias, prejudice, intolerance, etc...) we face nowadays is based on the massive and passive inability of Josephine Global Public and her Deadbeat "SO" to question their numbness ... the "spell" of numbness they have in many cases *Paid* government & corporate leaders to cast over them

Oopsie ... I'm ranting :-)

OK ... here it is Hard & Fast

Blue = Physical ... Red = Mental ... Green = Spiritual

The 3 aspects of Human Existence I dealt with in the Death Industry as a Funeral Director

In my humble view, the WOM wants to keep us in their Black & White *Mind_Trap*

Me? I've "Seen The Light" and *It's a RAINBOW* so I ain't goin' back to *No* F*** Black & White Psychic Prison*

I'm a *Whole Person*

CJ, Ladies, Fellow Earthlings

Thank You For Your Time & Your Patience

Comments *WELCOME*

Love / Marda

ps (I'll go easy on the "Godspeak") :-)

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

I have to admit that all the religeous talk was making me feel uneasy also. I am also an agnostic. Not that I would not like to have some religeous experience change my life, but it has not happened yet.

I don't have any problem with someone expressing thier beliefs, but when it starts to feel like envangalical rhetoric, then that makes me feel out of place. I have put up with this all my life. As a kid I could not play basketball, because you could only play in the "Church Leagues". As an adult I have had to put up with coaches leading prayer to kids who neither asked for it, nor complained about it. But there was a constant assumption that everyone is Christian.

I feel just as strongly about the discrimination I have felt for not being Christian, as the discrimination I have felt for being a crossdresser. they are the same thing to me.

We all have our beliefs. I have faith in science. However, just like all religions I must have a leap of faith. To accept science I have to beleive that "Logic" is correct. There is no proof of this. I just have to beleive it. So in a way, it is just as religious as any other religion.

You want to express your love of god, that is one thing, but offering unsoliceted prayer, or suggesting someone find the love of Jesus Christ, not that anyone has done this, would be over the top in my opinion.

Personally, someone wants to pray for me, that is thier business, as long as it is an expression of love. But as my inlaws have done, in a condescending way, to imply I am immoral and need salvation, is clearly wrong.

I am all for personal expressions of faith, no matter what religion. Beyond that, it will become an issue everytime.


CJ,

I thought it took a lot of courage to bring up this topic, I certainly did not have the courage to do it, even though I thought many of the same things. It is a real credit to who you are, and another part of what makes this place so special.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Marda]

Elizabeth, CJ, Everyone

I'm picking up a *verry* strong negative vibe when people refer to *Religion*

I've attempted here to switch to the term *Spirituality*

Does anyone here *DENY* the basic concept of human *SPIRITUALITY* as I've tried to express it ... *S* as one of 3 prime aspects of human existence?

Whether or not someone has a "Problem" with "Their" "Spirituality", or their "sense" or "lack of sense" of "spirituality" is not my concern or my business ... perhaps that's just one of truest indicators we *have* in this *modern* day of the *real* nature of the task ahead of us in our War On Hatred and it's inclusive Battle Against Ignorance

But I have to know now, are we here "officially" in "denial" about that aspect of Humanity?

Because *If So*, I truly believe all the "discussions" in the Greater Universe will be futile in advancing the position of CDs or *Any Human Being* for that matter

This to me is a *Fundamental* issue

If someone was molested by a "religious" figurehead, or if someone had an unpleasant experience with "narrow_mindedness" during their upbringing, or whenever, then that's regrettable, and perhaps therapy could help ... but I fail to see that as justification for stopping the battle against *Ignorance*

Do we want *LIFE* and *EQUALITY*?

Or is this only about a cheaper tube of lipstick and a "Designated CD Fitting Room" down at the mall?

PLEASE TELL ME

Love / Marda

[Rebecca]

Hi girls,

I too never had the courage to speak out for what I believe, but then I wouldn't have the courage to try out a new cd fitting room at the mall

Love
Rebecca xxx