Jealousy & other negative vibes within our own community

How are you dealing with or handling this aspect of your life?

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Lorna
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Jealousy & other negative vibes within our own community

Post by Lorna »

Don't worry - I speak not of this board by any means. In fact I speak of other forums out there on the web, along with walk in establishments.

I'd like to talk for a moment about the concept of JEALOUSY.

What can be said about this ugly emotion that has plagued mankind for centuries, building walls and tearing relationships apart? :?

Jealousy can manifest itself in an array of other emotions, ranging from resentment and hostility to pure HATE. It is the latter that creates dangerous outcomes for too many of us. :?

It's bad enough having to contend with jealous people in our day-to-day lives. But when it hits close to home (within the TG community itself) the effects of jealousy can be emotionally devastating for some. I for one will go almost anywhere I please, dressed. However many of my T girl friends won't feel safe in a straight environment for fear of physical attack, or a gay environment for fear of being snubbed altogether. Their safe haven is with their own, amongst their own - TG bars and clubs which are numerous here in New York. I for one would encourage anyone to just go where she pleases, but only at her own pace. So in the meantime TG clubs are their "safe haven".

Within said "safe haven" one would think that any chances of conflict would be at a minimum. Sadly though, this is not always the case. :?

This is not a rant - I just wanted to hear some of your thoughts. Have any of you experienced any sort of negative vibes from a fellow TG, whether online or face to face? For those of you who are newer to dressing, has this affected your coming out in any way?

Speaking personally, when I was first coming out I had no support boards on which to rely and discuss feelings. All I had to work with were a bunch of catty drag queens in the city and your occasional catty TS over the internet. I knew of no CD forums in my first year. But I think that experience has made me a stronger person - the girl I am today. It helped me to realize that the "real world" isn't always nice. It can be scary, but walking with your heald held high in ANY environment makes one feel stronger, as opposed to a sweet and sugar-coated world with red carpets and rose petals.

What are your thoughts? What have some of your experiences been? Have any of you sensed negativity amongst your own kind? Let's discuss...
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Marda
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WHY DOES GREEN HAVE TO BE THE COLOUR OF ENVY ???

Post by Marda »

Hi Lorna

*Envy* (jealously) is the *enemy* of *LOVE*

And I disagree with the point below about self esteem ... a child who has no self esteem issues can certainly be envious of another's toy, joy, what-have-you ...

*WAVE YOUR FLAG LORNA*

Love / Marda

:roll:
Last edited by Marda on Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kathy
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Post by Kathy »

I cannot contribute to Lorna's question directly as I have never knowingly met another TG person in the flesh. There are no gay bars or TG clubs up here in the "sticks". Not even a support group.

But jealousy and envy are, in themselves, simply symptoms of a much deeper problem which we have been discussing - love of self, or the lack of it. If we can overcome low self esteem and gain self acceptance, these symptoms will go away because there will be nothing to be jealous of.

Just my thoughts to add to the discussion.
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
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Lorna
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Post by Lorna »

Marda - Bravo, girl! Beautiful post! Wave the flag I shall!! \:D/

Kathy - excellent points! Self acceptance is key. And not having a local support group can be very tough, even though I was in NY, I still didn't know initially where to turn - LOL #-o But despite limited face to face encounters you seem to have embraced this side of you very nicely, and for that I commend you. =D>
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Post by NicoleL »

I guess I've struggled more against my own jealously than I have had to deal with jealousy from others. I find that if I can keep myself reasonably under control then others usually respond in kind. Some just take longer to do it, that's all. But it seems to me that, for better or worse, life is often conflict (and none of us is immune to human nature), and learning to deal with it without entering into it is a huge challenge.

I think it was Zorba the greek that said "life is trouble", and that was someone that knew how to live! -Nicole
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Post by Ahzz »

The more alone a person feels the more defensive they get in general.
The more defensive they get the more they lash out.
The more they lash out, to more likely they are to have jealousy and envy creep into them.

Could this chain be the source of those "catty" ones and others in general?
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Sally
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Jealousy and other negatives within our own community

Post by Sally »

Hi Lorna,

I can identify with what you are saying. When I first decided to walk out into the world there was nothing like this forum around, indeed I didn't even have a computer back in those days so I had to seek advice and support elsewhere, I had to seek support from groups, people in clubs etc. The first doctors I consulted told me to go get some religion and wake up to myself, so that put me back into my shell for a while.

I think that amongst our own community there is the same mix of people with the same personalities as in the general community, I've experienced conflict amongst our own, some people just can't get it into their heads that everyone is an individual and each group needs differing kinds of support and information and that no one is better or worse than the next, but that's human nature and I make allowances for that.

I believe everyone, no matter where they fit into the mix, needs to focus more on themselves and their own situation. Everyone who has an issue needs to do whatever they can within their power to enrich their own life and to know they are no less worthy as a person than anyone else, their self esteem depends on this. Being jealous of what another is able to achieve is something I see often, but it serves no useful purpose and peoples circumstances differ so much.

Some of the wisest words I've seen for a while were uttered by Jane Fonda in an interview on gender. I'll paste it below and it is of interest to note her last paragraph in the interview, she says so much in so few words.

My Kindest Regards.

Sally.

An Interview With Jane Fonda On Gender

by Michael Rowe

An exclusive interview with the famous mom of Troy Garity-star of the upcoming gender-defying film Soldier's Girl-becomes a fascinating give-and-take on "penis privilege" and how breaking down gender
barriers could change the world.

In the Showtime original film Soldier's Girl, debuting May 31, actor Troy Garity plays Barry Winchell, the doomed Army private whose love affair with transgendered nightclub entertainer Calpernia Addams [see Polare 51]
led to his brutal murder in July 1999 at the hands of a fellow soldier at Fort Campbell, Ky. In the course of writing this issue's cover story on Soldier's Girl, journalist Michael Rowe had occasion to speak with Garity's mother, actress Jane Fonda. Although she rarely grants interviews, Fonda agreed to an exclusive one-on-one with The Advocate to discuss her son, the political family in which he was raised, and the elusive notion of gender-particularly as it applies to patriarchy, homophobia, and the violence that led to Barry Winchell's murder.

Advocate.com: You saw "Soldier's Girl" at the Sundance Film Festival screening this past winter. It stars your son, Troy Garity, playing murdered soldier Barry Winchell. What was your impression of the film?

Jane Fonda: I'm really proud of it. I think it's very powerful, and I think every performance in it is outstanding. It raises many issues. One of the issues-the army's "don't ask, don't tell" policy-is raised by the film, but it has also been raised by Barry Winchell's parents, specifically his mother, Pat Kutteles, who was there at the screening. She is extremely brave.

A.c: Have you talked to her?

J.F: Yes, I have. I was in Kansas City with Barry's parents last month. As you know, the family have been very sharp critics of the army's "don't ask, don't tell" policy and in fact hold it primarily responsible for creating the climate of frustrated rage and intolerance that led to their son's murder.

"Don't ask, don't tell" is a sham and needs to be revamped or looked at again. Something needs to be done. There was a marine in the audience at Sundance who stood up. He introduced himself as a U.S. marine,
and I thought, Uh-oh. What's he going to do? He said,
"Thank you for this film. We need to look at this issue in the military, and [the film] is a great way to open it up."

A.c: Did you meet also Calpernia Addams at the
screening?

J.F: I had the pleasure of sitting next to Calpernia for the rest of the evening, and at the party afterwards. She was on one side of me, and her roommate, Andrea, was on the other. Andrea is also a transsexual. I see her as a theoretician of the transgender movement. She views what transsexuals do as smashing patriarchy.

A.c: What is it, do you suppose, about transsexual women that causes such a wide divergence of opinion among the general populace? The pendulum seems to swing from adoration to the purest loathing, in some quarters.

J.F: [Transsexual women] have given up "penis privilege." This is profoundly threatening to people on so many different levels. I suddenly saw how hard it is, and how vulnerable they are. I've since put them in touch with Eve Ensler, who is interviewing them to develop a monologue to add to [her one-woman show] The Vagina Monologues that will speak to these women who have given up the "penis privilege" voluntarily. We hope to do an all-transgendered Vagina Monologues in Los Angeles next February.

A.c: Troy made some very interesting points during our
interview yesterday-

J.F: I'm not surprised! [Laughs]

A.c: I asked him what it was like to be raised in a family with a tradition of social awareness and social conscience, and how that shaped him as an actor and as a man. He indicated that it helped shape his view. Did you raise Troy in any conscious way that might have shaped his later political views? And I mean political in the largest human sense. For instance, was Troy raised with strong feminist sensibilities?

J.F: Yes, although I have to fess up that I'm late coming to all this. He saw it because I was always strong and independent, but I didn't have a strong feminist consciousness when he was growing up. I didn't understand these things, not really.

A.c: Do you think that was a generational thing? There
is a whole generation of strong working women who didn't know at the time that they were living the feminist ideal. Do you think you were part of that?

J.F: Yes, I do. I think that's absolutely true.

A.c: In our interview, Troy was a ferociously articulate and quite passionate critic of the current war in Iraq, and indeed the impulse behind the military imperialism that is so much a part of modern warfare generally. Is his antiwar, pro-peace stance something that might have originated with you and his father, Tom Hayden?

J.F: We never proselytized. Our politics certainly took us away a lot, and he could have gone in the opposite direction out of rebellion, but he has his feet squarely on the ground. I learn from him all thetime. All the time.

A.c: What struck me the most, especially coming from a
man, is his view that in these violent times, what the world needs is to become more "feminine" and less "masculine." What are your own thoughts on gender in the context of social constructs, particularly violence?

J.F: I'm 65 years old, and it's taken me a long time, but I've come to see gender as the core, central issue facing humanity. It informs everything. If you deal with this issue, which is older than agriculture, it'll be the last bastion. And if we don't deal with it, we're not going to survive as a species. Because from that issue of gender emanates violence, hierarchy, homophobia-all of the social ills we deal with. We call them many names, but they come back to this one notion: that men are above women. Anything that challenges that notion is scary. You can trace any issue back to hierarchy, patriarchy, and power.

A.c: Michael Moore certainly addressed American culturally ingrained violence with stunning prescience in Bowling for Columbine.

J.F: I sat next to Michael Moore the other night, and he said, "I watched Columbine for the umpteenth time, and it suddenly hit me. I'd left out the gender issue!" I said, "Hello! That's why I wanted to sit next to you tonight." [Laughs] But my theory is, you can't put everything into one film. There should be a whole other film about it. But he said, "Hey, guys-the violence? It's male." Suicides are women and gays, violence is men.

A.C: But violence is so often subject to group sanction, meaning that if enough people-specifically men-are violent, it's thought of as a virtue rather than a vice. It's thought of as an example of male strength.

J.F: That's why I do a lot of work with Eve Ensler. And of course, Troy has become an honorary "vagina warrior." [Laughs] I'm sure he told you about that?

A.c: He told me that he'd just returned from an enlightening tour of Afghanistan with Eve. As North Americans, we so often forget that the true measure of the evolution of human culture needs to be taken in places other than the West. Have you noticed that happening elsewhere?

J.F: What I see happening is-and I hope it's not wishful thinking-a groundswell going on everywhere in the world that seems to be the opposite of patriarchy. I wish I had another word to use besides patriarchy, because it sounds so rhetorical. We'll just call it "the vagina-friendly ethic" [Laughs]. It's rising. Whether it's at the critical mass yet, I don't know, but it's getting there. Eve Ensler is one of the people on the cutting edge of this. I've traveled with her to other countries. It is amazing what is happening, and it's not just women. It's women and what she calls "vagina-friendly men." With what's happening in the world today, these guys could be shooting themselves in the foot. If the structure that is waging the wars-and cutting back on the caring, giving institutions-collapses, we're going to be ready with a whole new paradigm.

A.C: It's interesting, isn't it, when you take away all the gender-based prohibitions-for instance, the way we act, the way we dress, the way we relate to one another-what's left is something extraordinarily personal and unique.

J.F: We just finished our G-CAPP conference [Georgia Campaign for Adolescent Pregnancy Prevention]. We had a workshop called "Faith and Sex," or something like that. There was a wonderful Baptist minister who talked about androgyny. He cited research that showed that the most resilient people in the world are androgynous. He had a graph that showed that 10% of people are totally homosexual, and 10% are totally heterosexual, and the other 80% are somewhere in the middle. And the healthiest people are right smack in the middle. The different degrees on the spectrum are fascinating, and the more it's accepted, the healthier the society is. =D>

Reprinted from The Advocate
Watch nature, because it’s our greatest teacher, it moves and flows and moves on again. We can never be free until we disengage, so allow life to flow as you find it. The way it is, is the way it is.
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Post by Kersten Lee »

Ahzz,
You descibed me a short while back. Just what you said. I still sometimes fall easily back into that trap when feeling down and alone or lost in my still remaining dark places, not fit for habitation.

I still can't do what Lorna talked about from her beginnings. I am from the sticks also and have never met another cross-dresser. My therapist told me that she had only counseled one other cross-dresser in ten years. I know of no support groups.

While I was still discovering myself on CDDF, Lorna was one of those who always offered kindness and support to me. CDDF became so popular and with little or no supervision there became more of those who claimed to cd. But some of these were there to cause desention and not contribute to the overall good. They called people names and took every opportunity to hurt others and not build up.

I was loosing myself all over again. I felt I had lost another family. I took Beauty's advice and came over here. And things have been good ever since. People who want to hurt don't last long because of the wonderful people here. Some hurting people have made negative responses including me. But it was never returned in kind as I have been accustomed to all my life. I was given caring, love, support and even respect when I have been down. I second what Lorna has said about this group. We all should be proud.

Hugs,
Kersten
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Marda
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HUGE HUGS

Post by Marda »

Hi Sally

There are only 2 words and they seem so small for what you have brought to the table here

*THANK YOU*

(especially for JFs last statement - re 80 %)

( Am I a TG? ; "I Hope So; I *Really* Do")

Love / Marda
~ Some drink at the fountain of knowledge - Others just gargle ~
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Ariana
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Post by Ariana »

Having just joined this group today. I find this post helpful. my little seudo vent here may be off topic. if so.. sorry a head of time

I to am in the sticks here in south dakota. Even though I'm new to CD'ing I've already delt with my share of people I call trolls. They have made me jealous and hateful at times. They Make others feel like they are the ones doing something wrong for being themselves.

We are all beautiful in our own ways. No one person is better or worse than another. I'm no saint when it comes to jealousy. But hopefully together we can all be a little less jealous of one another.

With love
Ariana
To thine own self be true
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Marda
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WELCOME ARIANA

Post by Marda »

Hi Ariana

Welcome to the neighbourhood and thank you for joining the discussion

Your "little pseudo_vent" is very much on the target ... the more "mass" we can muster for this "War On Hatred" the less resistance we're gonna face when we take the battle into the streets of Planet Earth

Love / Marda

ps Ariana - please post in "New Members" ... our family Loves an "excuse" for a "Hugfest" :-)
/M
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Ariana
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Post by Ariana »

Posted in the new members area. Waiting for my hugs now *pouts* :)
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Post by Rebecca »

Ariana

(--) ((G)) (--)

Love
Rebecca and ~D~ XXX @->->-
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Post by Beauty »

Hi Lorna,

Great thread! Also it's cool to those who have posted. You all have really have given me something to think about.

Thanks!!!!
((G))
Beauty
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