When Religious Discussions Attack

[CJ]

Hi all,

No, Marda, you're right, spirituality itself is not at issue, here. We all each have our own ways of being spiritual (or not). This diversity, to me, is as wonderful and necessary as is our sexual diversity. The sun shines equally on all people everywhere. Nobody can claim to grab a piece of the sun and say, "Here, this is the true light." Same thing with sexuality, I might add (the Earth is everywhere, for us all; nobody can grab a handful of clay and say, "Here, out of this clay, I will fashion a true human.")

Still, and for these reasons, I think that those who have neither faith nor religion are just as entitled to have a share in the "truth" of the human condition.

You're also right, Marda, when you say there were negative vibes floating around here. They were mine. I'll admit it. And now I feel bad for it. I apologize for having wigged out. I value and respect everyone's input, here, regardless of their existential stance. I just don't want to be excluded and cast aside. Not here.

Peace,
CJ

[Kathy]

CJ, you freaked me out there. You moved all of this while I was typing.

Hi All,

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly but it seems I read in the rules when I signed up something about not attempting to convert other people to your point of view. This, I believe, would cover religious pomposity, no?

CJ, I completely understand what you said about people speaking in Biblical chapter and verse. I, too, stopped reaching for my Bible every time I saw that unless I had a particular interest. If a post holds no meaning for me I simply don't respond to it.

By the same token, when you, Elizabeth and Danielle went off on an exploration of quantum theory, you left me feeling rather like a grain of sand next to giants. I could no longer understand what you all were saying and felt a bit left out.

Sometimes we need to express ourselves in a manner which, perhaps only a few or even none will understand. It is up to those who understand to contribute their thoughts. If none do, well, at least we got it off our chests.

Marda, I don't believe any of us have anything against religion or spirituality. In my own way, I consider myself a deeply spiritual person. I have and will continue to express myself in those terms. But I try to express myself in terms that most people will understand. And I believe that you should continue to express yourself in whatever terms you are comfortable with.

But we all need to be cognizant that there are other people here who do not believe as we do. Proselytizing is not what we are here for and that goes especially for PMs to others. When you send a Private Message you are crossing the threshold into that person's private space and you should respect that space as if you were entering into their home.

We all have differing views here on all kinds of topics. Expressing our differences is what this forum is all about. It is how we learn.

I thank you all for being you.

[Beauty]

Ok,

I stepped in here. I am the one who split the post and gave it the thread name because that's what I thought this became. The split also happened because it lost the original threads meaning.

CJ. You did an incredible job of maintaining your composure here. I don't like the way this thread was turning and with total class you managed to save it by being more humble than many of us who love God.

The board rallying around you to give you support was just as amazing. I applaud all of you for giving her the support she needed.

I would have felt exactly like you did CJ. I'm not so sure though I would have been so nice flicking public innuendoes about me so easily.

Reminder. If someone hasn't asked for feedback about themselves then you should tell them about your feelings via PM.

Marda you talked about a sense of calm "now". I don't feel that at all. What I feel is things are out of sorts, but that happens anywhere things grow.

Again CJ, great job and to all those who rallied around her you are truly beautiful!!!


Also for those who want to talk about Jesus and CD'ing here is a great link.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tg-christians/ I am a member of it.

Beauty

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

I feel just as strongly about the discrimination I have felt for not being Christian, as the discrimination I have felt for being a cross-dresser. they are the same thing to me.

Please read the following closely? with the elimination of one word I have turned this back at you.

I feel just as strongly about the discrimination I have felt for being a Christian, as the discrimination I have felt for being a cross-dresser. they are the same thing to me.

Why is it that people who had to struggle against discrimination all there lives from being a cross-dresser, are so willing to engage in the same kind of activity?

Why is it that I am expected to accept things that are said from others here, some of which I believe to be down right dangerous, yet others have a problem with allowing Marda to just be herself?

Is this not the same kind of activity that Christians are accused of? Yes I am a Christian and I am a stranger living in a strange world. The word religion has no place here, a religious person may not be a Christian. One can be religious about any thing.

Beauty your post appeared while I was writing mine.

[Elizabeth]

Marda,

It is my beleif that this place is all about spirituality. I feel it every time I come here. That "is" what we are talking about, isn't it? How we feel at our core?

I would not want to suppress someones spirituality, whether religious or non religious. For me it is all about finding out who I really am. It seems that by finding out who others are, it helps me explore who I am in a honest way. But to do that, I need others to tell me how they are feeling, espicially spiritually.

However in accepting someone's spirituality, it can be confused for accepting someone's religion. Everyone wants thier beleif's to be validated, I am no exception, but when posts take on a "flavour" that we all the same religion, it does make me uncomfortable, like I am no longer being accepted. Like I am once again being asked to be something I am not, to be included. My life story.

As for your spirituality, I like that you are able to express it, it tells me who you are, and how I might relate to you better. How I might apply it to my own life. I just don't want to feel like I have to beleive the same thing as you to be your friend. Right or wrong, I do feel that way at times.

I hope that helps.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Marda]

***
"That's The Story Of My Life ... I Don't Get No Respect"
..........................................................Rodney Dangerfield
***

Ms. Lynn Conway's Retrospective

"PART IV: ON TO SUCCESS

"- - - it wasn't till much later that I really realized why Xerox had never shown any interest in applying our VLSI work, even within PARC - - - gradually it dawned on me that the CSL sniping had given our work a strange image with PARC's management (other than Bert Sutherland) - - it was probably considered to be rather "toy-like" and naive (until the smashing success of MPC79, and all the resulting attention in the outside world) - - I guess you can't be a prophet in your own land - - - anyways, Xerox missed out , and never got anything out of our VLSI work - - however, there was a wonderful silver lining to this, for my team: since our work wasn't taken very seriously, Xerox let us publish openly, collaborate openly without restriction with other companies like HP, and generally do whatever we wanted with our results - - pretty amazing, eh! - - - "

Lynn Conway

***

Love / Marda

[Loretta Ann]

Elisabeth wrote;However in accepting someone's spirituality, it can be confused for accepting someone's religion. Everyone wants their beleif's to be validated, I am no exception, but when posts take on a "flavor" that we all the same religion, it does make me uncomfortable, like I am no longer being accepted. Like I am once again being asked to be something I am not, to be included. My life story

Please explain to me what I am missing here Elisabeth. Who is asking you to accept someones spirituality? It appears to me that as Marda has so beautifully described in last post here that it may not be what others are saying here that makes you uncomfortable?

Yes everyone needs to have their beleif's validated, but is attempting to get those who do not believe as you do the solution? I doubt one will ever find another person capable of validating ones beliefs, the best I have been able to accomplish is to find one person who is able to validate maybe one of my beliefs, and some one who is able validate another.

I want to make one thing very clear here, I can not validate many of the personal beliefs of the people on this forum (or anywhere else for that matter) but that dose not prevent me from accepting you of a person worthy of respect.

As for those for whom that remains a requirement their life story will not change, and they will never be able to accept or support those who have different beliefs.

And that my friends is not any different for those of society whom we would like to accept and support us.

And for me to say anything different to you would not be doing you any favors, regardless of how much you might like for this to be a different message.

I can accept you but your baggage may not allow that to happen? And if that is the situation, I am sorry but I will not apologize for that.

[Aislin]

CJ: Well said. A response generated directly form the heart and soul of a being cannot be respectively denied. I followed the thread all the way through. You have my eternal respect and gratitude. And lots of warm fuzzies too.

MARDA: What can I say. I did not loose your eloquence and followed every argument . It was truly fun to read as a soliquy(?). Warm Fuzzies to you.

ALL: I regret that I did not find this thread sooner. Perhaps it was meant that I did not. I have learned that any person, feminie or masculine will fight for their beliefs when they feel like they are being boxed in. I do it as well. I am simply amazed at the response. Many people did not have a " side" but fought for the rights of others to believe what they will.

My demons and angels are nodding in agreement.

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

If I offended anyone, it was not my intention. I think I should have stuck to my normal rule of not discussing religion or politics. They are circular arguments. I can only repeat what I have already said. I tried to say it respectfully. If I did not, my apologies.

It is my desire to repect the religious beleifs of all people, the best I can without intruding on my own beleifs. That is all. I meant nothing else.

Respectfully,
Elizabeth

[Beauty]

The temperature in here is too hot and the doctor has ordered an immediate quarantine.

He'll see you in the morning.