Hurting the one you love

[Marda]

*Nothing Important Here*
Only wish to Echo Kay & Honey

/Marda

[Jassmine(SO)]

Hi Jessica_Karen,

I have to agree with Honey:

my answer to your question is NO. silence and patience are not the same. Silence will get you no where, communication is very important.

The problem I see is that your SO is in total defensive mode. Understandable, but not helpful to you or her. I have been pondering a way for you to be honest with her about your feelings, without it feeling like she is being pressured. Sigh.... I honestly don't see one at this stage. I feel that whatever you say to her she, at this point, will not receive it well. Writing her a letter may be your best bet at this point. She can then read it and "digest" it at her own pace. I think the best way to start the letter would be to reassure her of your love for her, and that you are feeling bad that she is having a difficult time. From there just be honest with her about how you are feeling. Please, do avoid making any kind of accussational statements, example "You are making me....." These kinds of statements will only make her feel more defensive. As I suggested earlier, use I statements, "I am feeling...." Best of luck and brightest blessings to you both.


*Hugs*

[Honey(SO)]

Jassmine:
I totally agree with the letter, that is how my husband told me, I had plenty of time to digest, pick apart and read that letter about 100 times before I responded to my husband in a positive manner. It took 5-6 days for me to be in a frame of mind to be able to do this.
Granted my husband was probably on pin and needles the whole time, but we went on with things and he was patient and waited for my response, but during the 5-6 days we shared alot of hugs and kisses and he knew I still loved him. We both worked hard to keep our emotions in check over the CD, but because of the way I treated him he knew things were probably taking a positive direction.
Honey

[Kersten Lee]

Hi All,
I can confirm the advice being given is good and doable. When I composed a letter to my wife this last winter it began a healing process for us that is still ongoing. I told how and why I married her 29 years ago and those reasons are why I will still fight for our marriage today. My loving to be feminine is no more or less than the person I still am. I told her I have always been faithful (and she knows that). Nothing and no one are competing for her affection. I told her she would have to take that on faith. She cried when she read it. I haven't see her cry for a number of years except when we were fighting.

We saw a marriage counselor for three months of her choosing, then she quit as we were touching on other issues. We have more and bigger problems than my cding. She finally went to a therapist of her choosing for 4 times already. At some point I am hoping our love will be free and unhibited by past wrongs, our egos and pride. I am still working on my end.

I had to like myself first to even begin accepting my wife again for the person she is. All the people here that have helped and advised me though this maze are truly caring and wonderful human beings. All here have helped me to see deeper in my wife's feelings and also my own.

For myself my sin was always needing to be right. Some of you have probably noticed this. I am still working on it.

Karen try to look to your wife as the woman you love. Treat her that way and she will come around. All the advice given you has worked for me.
If your marriage is a little shaky, take down those fences, don't erect new ones. Relationships are much more complicated than deciding what clothes to wear. I know because I have learned to see what I have done in our marriage to hurt us both. It was so much easier when I said this or that would be ok if not for her. I layed most things at her feet.

I'm not pointing a finger at you. I just wanted to tell you of my experiences. I hope I may help you a little.

Take Care,
Kersten

[Jessica_Karen]

*sigh* The universe unfolded last night just the way I expected and feared it would when I came out to her. I don't think I've ever been attacked quite so viciously...and that's saying something. I am expected to repress this part of me. If I've denied it for 28 years, then I should be able to deny it for another 28. I'm being "selfish." No, she was "too busy" to read anything I might ask her to. It went on and on.

Bottom line: No, she can't accept it. No, no, and no. What did I expect of her? To play "dress-up" with me? (I can't replicate the bitterness of that line in print. You'll have to imagine the combination of scorn and disgust.) If counselling failed, she would be "honest" with the kids, and with my father. She would tell them why. (Nice to have such a simple answer to a question with such complexity.) When I told her that if she did, it would be her hurting them, not me. I told her that no matter what happened, I would not bad mouth her. So she switched tactics...she's good at that...and said that if I were honest...God knows I've lied so many times, (her words)...I owed it to them to explain that our marriage fell apart because of my crossdressing.

This seems to me a bitter kind of morality: to place a hurtful "honesty" over caring and compassion, but it does give her what she wants: the high moral ground.

I don't know if I can find the strength to do what I know needs to be done. It's over. I can't see any point in continuing with the counselling. It won't change anything. She's made that clear. I told her I would see the process through, but after a brief moment of hope after 28 years, I see nothing left but divorce, and a life of poverty, loneliness, and despair. I'm not suicidal, but I just wish I could die.

[CJ]

Karen,

I'm so sorry to hear that this didn't work out for you. I hear your sorrow and I feel your painful disappointment. I don't know if this may help or not, but here, for you:

As I said in previous posts, never having experienced painful separations myself, I'm never really sure what to say, except that we'll be here for you if you need to talk. Please feel free also to PM or e-mail me if you want to.

Karen, keep in mind that whatever moral high ground (or reprehensible psychological tactics) your wife may have chosen to adopt, they take away absolutely nothing of your own worth as a person. Sometimes, there really are irreconcilable differences between lifemates; these don't make either one of the partners any less worthy (or able) to pursue their own happiness, even after a seeming lifetime together. If all else fails, do what you must. She, also, will do what she must. Maybe you can take heart in the recent examples of Julie and Elizabeth, who've weathered this kind of crisis and are in the process of coming out the better for it.

Take care, Karen. I'll be thinking of you.

Love,
CJ

[Honey(SO)]

Oh Karen, I feel so bad for the both of you.
In my experiences with other women learning about CD this response is not all that unexpected. Many wives feel betrayl, hurt, anger and that their own feminine side is being challenged.
I know you have other issues in your marriage and it is good you are going to counseling. Is this counselor familiar with gender issues? If so ask to see him/her alone and discuss the CD and your wives reaction to it.

Your wife is lashing out at your right now and that is very hurtfull, for you both. It may be that she needs some time to digest all that you told her.
It is very unfair for her to say she will tell the family and that the CD is the cause of the marriage breakup, these are words said in anger.

At some point she will have to understand that this is part of who you are and will not go away, nor can it be repressed for the rest of your life.
At least she knows now and I sure that that is all she is thinking about right now, it will consume her mind- I know this from personal experience-
wait a few days and ask her if she has any questions or just bide your time and wait till she asks.
If you are able to stay together then you will have to come to some sort of arrangement where you can have time for Karen, perhaps away from home or while your wife is not at home, this is not a secret but you are not doing it in front of her. You are not forcing anything on her.

I hope that given some time your wife will come round to at least trying to understand even if there is not any acceptance.

Even if your wife refuses to continue with the counseling, keep with it for yourself you are on a downward slide right now and need the support from anywhere you can get it.
My thoughts and prayers are with you for a positive outcome to this.
Honey

[Jassmine(SO)]

Jessica_Karen,

I too, am sorry things are not going as you had hoped

I think your wife has some long standing, deep rooted core issues that are affecting her behavior towards you. She needs to resolve those issues, with the help of counseling, for your marriage to work. If she is unwilling to do her part, counseling will not work. I had sensed that CDing was not the only hurdle to be jumped in trying to save your marriage. Your CDing is not main the reason your marriage isn't working. It is just one of many. Please don't blame yourself.

I applaud your honesty with her. I know it wasn't easy to tell her about your CDing. You have also been very un-selfish through out, by showing concern for her feelings and what she is going through. Please, continue with counseling, for your own peace of mind.

If the worst happens, and you do get divorced, try to look at it as not an end, but as a new beginning. I know that this is a very difficult path to walk, as I have walked it. It was well worth it, though. I was finally free to be myself and I am very happily married now. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. We here, will always be around to offer help, support, to lend you an ear, or to give you a "shoulder" to cry on.

Stay strong and know that you are loved.

*HUGS & LOVE*

[Ahzz]

In truth there are no ends, only new beginings. Sometimes what appears to be the worst ending possible is in reality the best begining of your entire life.

If the love of my life hadn't accepted this 3 years ago, then she and I would not be here today. I would be in a day to day wage slave job, she would be stuck with the abuser, and we would both still be miserable.

[Marda]

Hey_Jessica Karen

Echo Echo to Honey and Jassmine

Caveat ... Divorce Lawyers *Love* "Confession" letters

Long term prospects ... Well ... last week the s..t hit the fan because I was so outrageous as to touch on a few apparently "unpopular" "Life" "issues "and "concepts" ... so I felt compelled to eliminate references to those in previous posts and I truly feel now as though I'm being "Censored" at least by "popular pubilc opinion" ...

Having said that ... my Dear Father went through *Exactly* what you are going through ... now get *this* ... 35 years later ... yes *THIRTY-FIVE* YEARS of *Bitterness* and *Hatred* by my Dear Mom toward *"him"* ... as my Father lay on his deathbed, my Mom wrote him a card *Wishing Him Well*

25 years ago, after my Dad's 2nd marriage folded, he went to an intensive IYF immersion therapy session and *Found* *Himself* & *Peace* with *Who* *He* *Was/"Is"/Was* ... he was a "closet crossdresser" for as long as I can remember (but he never knew I knew) and I *Feel* *Great* about that ...

The multitude of people who attended my Dad's funeral *Loved* him ... he lived in a small town of *small_minded* people ... by day he was a solid and productive community man and educator ... by night he was a dear sweet and very tenacious woman ... I'm *PROUD* of my Dad ... *Quite* a *Gal* *That* *Guy* !!!

So, *YOU* *BE KIND TO YOURSELF* ... *Don't Go Down The "Trail of Broken Hearts" with your poor wife ...

LOVE is *Where *It's At* ... she'll probably throw lots of "DooDoo" at you ...

Why? ... well, *That's Between Her & Her "Maker"* !

IMHO !!!
??

Love / Marda

[Jessica_Karen]

I am moved to wonder at the love and understanding here, not only for the compassion you have extended to me, but amongst each other and with your partners in real life. Can you be real? (only joking) But why is this quality so rare in real life? I could count on the fingers of a single hand, the people I've met like CJ, Honey, Kay, Jassmine, Marda, ...the list goes on. Where do you find the generosity of spirit (not to mention the time) to dedicate to people on this forum like me? I am in awe of you...and I am so grateful. Thank you.

Honey wrote:

I know you have other issues in your marriage and it is good you are going to counseling. Is this counselor familiar with gender issues? If so ask to see him/her alone and discuss the CD and your wives reaction to it.

No, (alas) he is not familiar with gender issues, though Kay assures me that since we are dealing with feelings, he may still be able to help. I think I will request a private session. It can't hurt.

Honey also wrote:

you are on a downward slide right now and need the support from anywhere you can get it

You are probably right. Thank you for being here. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be anywhere else to turn. You are right, of course, that there are other issues in our marriage, too. I won't go into them here, but it seems that this one...my crossdressing...is the one on which I can expect no progress to be made. She has decided. It's final. In her view, I'm being selfish...considering that we probably can make progress on the other issues...selfish in asking for some accommodation on this one, too. She's given all that she can, she says. I believe her.

You wrote:

It may be that she needs some time to digest all that you told her.

No. (I'm shaking my head sadly.) No. She's digested it. And spat it out.

Marda, my heart goes out to you when you tell me about what your father went through. I know exactly what that is like. How awful! (that card on his deathbed) It shivers me. But how wonderful that he found the strength to live his life well, despite your mother's bitterness. And how wonderful that you can speak so lovingly of him. (If there is a God, may his/her blessings rain down upon you like millions of white petals for that.) I don't want to lead a life like his. (Who would?) And I don't want my wife to live a live like your mother's either. She must have been desperately unhappy. It's just that right now, given the choices, I can't imagine life being any better if we do split than if we don't.

"Go then," she said, "if it makes you happy."

I told her, "I don't believe in happiness anymore."

*sigh* I'll stop here. I'm wallowing in self pity. (sorry) That's ugly, and it doesn't get me anywhere, either. I'm not asking for solutions, (though I'd be grateful for one, believe me! ) I'm just thankful for having someone who will lend an loving ear. (Forgive the tears? You can be thankful, at least, I didn't blow my nose on anyone's collar!)

Does anyone here use Yahoo Messenger? (just a thought) Okay, I'm going now. Really. Goodbye. Enough already! Look, I'm out the door! Goodbye!\

love,

[Kay(SO)]

Karen,

I haven't been here much for the past few days but when I popped on, I saw your heartbreaking post. And I know how difficult this has been for you. It has been hard not to hold out hope that "someday..." but as it appears, that day will probably never come with your wife.

I always find it funny how people like you send all of your love and gratitude to us, when it's easy because you are quite likable and have a good spirit yourself. You're just feeling a little bankrupt right now.

I do recommend a private session with the counselor. Especially to begin the grieving process that will undoubtedly take place. To process what next from here. Just remember that you are a wonderful, deserving person who has every right to be accepted exactly as you are and loved.

I send you hugs and hope that she doesn't play the malicious card. My husband's ex did that in court but she lost out in the end. They gave custody of their 8 year old son to him, the "perverted crossdresser" as she told their son.

Anyway, we are here for you. It's okay to feel solemn and sorry right now. Just don't wallow so long that you can't get up and get moving again. I am truly sorry for you but like someone mentioned earlier. This could be a new beginning. Even if you have nothing, you have self-respect and the ability to be yourself. I'd take that and trot on down the road. The rest will work itself out.

Hang in there sweetie,

Kay(SO)

[Jassmine(SO)]

Hi Jessica_Karen,

You are most welcome

I think I will request a private session. It can't hurt.

Nope, it can't hurt and I am sure you will find it very helpful. Please keep us posted on your progress, if you would like to. We're all rooting for you

Kay wrote:

It's okay to feel solemn and sorry right now. Just don't wallow so long that you can't get up and get moving again.

I feel that allowing oneself to explore and deal with one's feelings is a very important step in the healing process. And I reiterate, just don't wallow too long. Alas, it is very easy to do. If you are feeling too "bogged down", please come here, call a friend, or do something you enjoy. Get back to a hobby you enjoy and have been away from, or take up a new one

Does anyone here use Yahoo Messenger?

I have MSN Messenger I will private message you my handle I cannot use Yahoo

I wish you the best of luck and the brightest blessings.

*Hugs*

[Jessica_Karen]

Hi, all. We've been out of town, so I haven't had a chance to post any news for the past few days. Okay...so here's the latest installment in the soap opera that is my life: Recall the last post? Well, next evening we sat and talked again. Only this time we really talked...didn't just blast away at each other. Amazing how much better that works, isn't it? It's like we've discovered there are rules for discussing things...like listen to the other person, ask for clarification, consider the other person's feelings. These are tough issues (at least for us), but somehow we managed to stay connected, and we both (it seemed to me) felt the other person really cared about what we were going through. I think that is hopeful.

That said, the bottom line for both of us remains the same. The other issues...and there are a number of them...I think can be resolved with time and counselling. The way we relate to each other, for instance, when we're hurt or angry, (see above). But the CDing is going to be a make or break issue for us. I think she is finally beginning to believe me when I tell her that it won't go away. That's progress, I suppose, but her bottom line is still, "No."

This leaves me tremendously frustrated. (Not angry...she asked me the other night if I was...and no, I wasn't. I understand her feelings, I think, pretty well.) But I am frustrated. Disappointed, too. It's almost physical, this frustration. I walk past the clearance racks outside the stores, and I feel my eyes drawn toward them, but I know I mustn't let my feelings show, so I turn away. I feel like I'm back in the closet, but now I'm not even allowing myself any release at all. I don't want to go back to doing things in secret. That would be the end of our relationship, a breaking of trust (again), in her eyes. That said, I'm faced with the reality that the present situation can't go on. I'm haunted by Kay's comment, that if you tell someone what you need, and your needs still go unmet, then chances are your needs will never be met by that individual.

I feel like I'm going in circles. I'm back where I started: with needs that can only be met in secret. Fear of discovery if I do anything. Fear of hurting her by violating her trust. Fear of losing her. Fear of destroying everything that matters in our lives.

Please don't misunderstand me...there are some good things that are happening in our lives. We really are working hard at rebuilding this relationship. I can see her trying...heck, she even sent me out blackberry picking a couple of days ago and made a pie for dessert. (My pastry just sticks to the table. I make terrible pies.) She hasn't done that for years. We go walking together, and paddling...her in her kayak, me in the rowboat. (The dog isn't to be trusted in a kayak, and dad doesn't dare leave the beach without the dog.) So there are good things happening, and I don't want to lose the gains we've made over the past few weeks.

But...well, you hear the question don't you? Kay, any advice? Anyone?

[Marda]

Hi Jessica_Karen
Nice to see you here again
1) In my own past situation, I almost remarried to a girl who wrote to my mother saying "XYZ is basically nice man ... but there are still a few things about him I will have to change" ... I never knew about this until years later ... my Mom told me "I knew when I read that letter that it wouldn't last ... if she thought she was going to change you, she didn't understand my son"

2) Many times over a 15+ yr period, it appeared that my Mother & Father were "communicating" and were searching for a way to "settle" matters ... untimately, it was my Mother who upheld her original postion and "refused" to "accept" my Father's "Nature"

With all respect to your wife, it seems she may be "mending a few of her own perceived wobbly fences ... perhaps (wishfully) thinking that "Your *Problem*" is a factor of some "negligence" on her part ... inevitably, either you "crack up", or you "reaffirm your position", and she then will feel "justified" in taking the position "I did everything I could to rescue him ... I bent over backwards ... I did everything I could to save our marriage ... but *he's* a*sick* *man* ... *he* *thinks* *he's* a *woman*"
IMHO
"Pray that I'm wrong"

Love / Marda