Attraction - What is it anyway?

How are you dealing with or handling this aspect of your life?

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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Wow! Great post, Rebecca. 8) I'm in the same boat you are, really; I'm feeling my way through this situation more than anything else. You know, I'm not even sure there is a situation, to begin with. I haven't seen seen Lady X for quite a while now, so I'm not in a position to confirm, deny, or even verify once more my feelings on this matter.

Although Darlene may have a point, in that this attraction (if such is what it is) is bound up in a an illusion, part of me wants to believe that all attraction (whether straight or "bent") is, to some extent, bound up in an illusion. We are inevitably attracted to an image first, whether it's an image of someone's looks or someone's personality (or, probably, a combination of both). It's during this "probation period" that seduction and attraction come into play. Signals are usually strong. Pheromones lace the air. Illusion rules; we try to put our best face forward, and seem to only see the other's best face. It's a magical time in a relationship. But the true bond develops only when we really get to know the object of our attraction. I, for one, have a strong desire for others to know me as I am (or, as I know myself, at least). Hence, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the importance I attach to being upfront about my CDing. This is also the reason why, for example, I've posted boy mode pix on the gallery; I want you all to know that I am a boy, not a girl (and to know that I know this as well, regardless of the fun and fulfillment I may get from dressing up). Again, illusion.

Ultimately, I usually regard myself in a neutral manner--I don't think of myself primarily as a "sexed" soul. I'm just me. And this is what has me going about Lady X. For some strange reason, it seems as though I don't regard her primarily as a "sexed" soul either. At least, that's how it feels inside. This is puzzling, baffling, and intriguing to me. I want to know more. But, as you said, Rebecca, I'm very aware that this is something that will very likely become a problem if Lady X and I ever come to a point where we'll be crossing the threshhold of that bedroom door. When the chips are down, when the masks are removed, when the clothing lay discarded on the floor, the illusion will vanish and reality will "protrude" (however much I wish it didn't! :P ).

Still, I'm not really troubled by any of this. As I said earlier, I'm trying to rid myself of some of my old ways and patterns of thinking and doing. I just want to let "what is" unfold according to its own momentum and see where it takes me. The moment I encounter inner resistance (I mean, like all of us, I do have some standards and limits [-X ), I'll pull back, cool down, stare the facts of the matter straight in the eye. Until then, I think I'll just give myself the freedom to enjoy this particular situation, odd as it may be to me.

Thanks, all of you, by the way, for your awesome contributions to this thread. You people are fine, fine souls (yes, Kersten, I mean you too, here! 8) ).

Love,
CJ

P.S.
Deborah, you posted while I had my back turned. Cool post. I think you'll do just fine at the SBS. I've never met any online sisters yet, either, and I know that I'd be much more comfortable doing it in drab the very first time, too. Good luck, girl! :)
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Elizabeth
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Post by Elizabeth »

Hi girls,

What started out as a relatively straight forward encounter has turned into one of the most honest discussions I have ever seen a group of people have. I feel lucky to have been here to have so much experience shared with me.

I just can't say how nice it is to know that others struggle with the same things I do. I am surprised that no one has brought it up yet. But who remembers "The Crying Game"? The story of a man who fell in love with a beautiful woman and she with him, only to find out she was a non-operational transexual on hormones. If you have not seen this show, I highly reccomend it.

When I watched it with my wife so very long ago, it made me think about things I was not prepared to think about and certainly was not ready to discuss. It was also used by many comedians to describe a bad date situation.

I won't tell you how it ends, but I agree with CJ's assessment that perhaps we are humans first, then boys or girls as a sublabel? It is still a lot to think about. Since I am in the process of divorce I do worry about finding the right woman who can not only accept who I am, but love and cherish who I am. I just can not settle for less than that now.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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Curly(SO)
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Post by Curly(SO) »

This is a great thread! In fact only a couple of days ago I had a discussion with Ed along similar lines to the one Elizabeth had with her brother. Ed was a bit perturbed by it as we have done this chat before! Basically, I said to him that, as a heterosexual woman, I couldn't understand the notion of getting all dressed up really pretty and feminine and still wanting the sexual attentions of a GG, i.e...me! Because when I am all dressed up I obviously want to look attractive to my man. I wouldn't want to be sexually attractive to another woman. (I do dress up to impress other women at times, but for non sexual reasons I go into further down).
I was worried that Ed would think I was questioning his sexuality, (he probably did, as he went a bit quiet) which I wasn't, really, I just wanted to understand something that I'm never going to get fully to grips with, I suppose. So we got back to the usual 'well I'm a male lesbian' answer, (which is what Eddie Izzard says!)
I find this easier to get to grips with, when I think of what CJ said, we are human beings first, boy and girl are sub-labels. Our souls transcend our gender, and I love my husband's soul, not just his maleness or outward appearance. I also like to think that I would stay with, and still love my husband is he ever were to go through transition (which I'm pretty sure won't happen) although I know it would be a hard thing to deal with.
Thinking about attraction to the same sex! Yes I look at women, I notice GG's checking each other out all the time! If I see an attractive woman, I am drawn to keep looking. The way she looks attracts my attention but I am not sexually attracted to her, I have no desire to have any physical contact with her, but I may want to get to know her as a friend. Some of it has to do with projecting our own image, as ~D~ says. In fact, I am more drawn to women who have a vague resemblance to me, or how I would like to look.
How this relates to CDers?...as the majority of you are heterosexual, maybe you are used to checking women out in a sexual sense (as well as just checking their clothes out in a CDing sense!) so when you find yourselves drawn to an enfemme CDer you are not sure why you are attracted to them and are a little perturbed! Maybe you are merely experiencing the very feminine trait of 'checking each other out' in the way I described above, which has nothing to do with sexual feelings.
Anyway that is enough of my ramblings for a Friday morning!

Love,
Curly(SO) :)
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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Curly,

Yes! Yes! Yes! That's a huge part of it, I think. As I said in an earlier post, maybe this attraction to Lady X has to do with my somehow "recognizing" myself in her or in my admiration for her being able to be the kind of of person I, myself, ache to be--not so much in her appearance, as in her seemingly carefree attitude.

When I tell people that I sometimes notice the handsome beauty of another man (a non-CD), some will reply that I must be repressing homosexual tendencies or desires. But I know that isn't the case--I think it's a natural thing to compare our appearance with that of others. Still, it certainly isn't something that men are encouraged to do. There's a horrible and insidious supposition (a stereotype, if there ever was one) in our culture that women are naturally more vain and conscious of their looks than men. So much so, in fact, that it becomes almost expected that women will "check each other out." Well, men are just as capable of this kind of evaluative behaviour as are women. You just need to drop in to your local crossdressers forum to see that this is so. :P

I try as best I can to not let another person's great beauty (or downright homeliness, for that matter) distract me from understanding that I'm merely dealing with another human being, here, another soul, a person pretty much like myself.

Lady X is just another person like myself, in the end. Maybe I'm so fascinated because I want to know just how much like myself she really is? Maybe. I don't know. As before, to be continued...

Love,
CJ
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Rebecca
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Post by Rebecca »

Hi girls,

I am just catching back up with this one. I love this topic as like the hero topic we are dealing with the sensitive stuff and digging deep.

I see your point CJ, about men checking each other out, It's hard to imagine men looking at each others crotches to see who's the most well-endowed 8-[

Curly

I don't want to drift off track, but I found your post fascinating. Neither do I want to be thrown off the forum for talking smutty, so I'll try to word carefully. This isn't playing a part in my life at present, the future ? I don't know. Also, I don't ......

.....OH...get to the point Rebecca....oh, all right..... :roll:

Regarding the 'male lesbian' ? I can only speak for myself so here goes. The styilised image of a man in bed is testosterone fuelled acrobatics, lots of sweat and excercise. Been there, done that, it's always there on tap. But what about my sensitive side, delicate feelings, sensiousness.
You see images on telly of women lovers ( no I don't go in search of them, honest ) being very aware of each others touch ? When I am dressed, I am far more aware of my own presence than when in drabola. Myself and my immediate surroundings become more clear. Senses are heightened.

I remember when I was young seeing a sex manual describe lesbian lovers, it was entitled 'the sensitive touch'. I thought If I was one of those girls, I could have the sensitive touch with a woman too. I could take away the dominant and submissive, and be equal. I felt jealous, I didn't want to watch them or be with them, I wanted to actually be one of them.

When I dress, I feel sensitive, at present the 'male lesbian' isn't a part of my life, I'm working on my emotions which are still all over the place, but I can still understand the feeling.

I suppose everyone is different, so this may not apply to everyone, or even anyone.

I hope I kept it clean enough, [-o<
Come to that, I hope it made sense

Anyway that is my interprataion of it
Love to all
Rebecca xxx @->->-
Be good, Be safe, Be happy.
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SophieLawson
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Post by SophieLawson »

I think you are spot on there Curly!

I also have always thought I am different to most men sexually in that I have to say that in my whole life there has only ever been 1 girl who I have ever looked at in a sexual way. A girl at work who when we go out clubbing at work I always dance all night with her, and it just so happens she is a lesbian! :shock: lol

Anyways, all other girls who I have loved and been with in the past it has never been sexual, it has just been the next stage of a friendship, cuddling, kissing etc

Sophie xx
Jassmine(SO)
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Post by Jassmine(SO) »

Howdy :)

WOW!! Great topic and great points made by all!!

Now, for a confession :wink: I have found myself sexually attrtacted to other women. Why? I admire beauty in all forms and for me beauty is quite the turn on. Would I act on that attraction, nope. That's just not my thing. But, with the right woman.....Who knows.... I have also had quite a few "straight" women sexually attracted to me. *Shrug* don't know why. But this leads me to believe that attraction is something that one really has no control over. Myself, I have always been attracted to men more for who they are than what they look like. Yes, there is a physical attraction, but I think for myself, it is seconary, not primary.

*Hugs & Love* @->->- *^^*
Blessings Eternal, Jassmine

"Love is unconditional acceptance. That quality is also our essential nature, who we really are."
--Peter Shepherd
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Post by Merinda »

I find the attitude of some people boils me to the point of really wanting to belt some sense into them .
what gives anyone the right to decide or know better than me about my sexuality , I am sexualy attracted to women only and thats it !

There seems to be a belief that any man that has not been seen with a woman for some time is obviously Gay.
Ten years of total frustration trying to form a relationship with the opposite sex and failing all the time as a 5'4 skin and bones , big mouthed, big head, narrow shouldered, little nerd being me .
I had years of being insulted and laughed at , one girl would rather go back to her previous boyfriend and get another black eye from him because it was better than being seen with me.

"I know why you havn't a girlfriend " says Mr 6'4 broad shoulder handsome personality , its because you must be gay ! , hey I can get any girl I want its just so easy to get a girl so I dont believe you cant get one.

WALK A MILE IN MY SHOES !! Mr handsome dude , see how you go with forming relations with the opposite sex .


sorry for the rant , but people that claim to know more about my sexuality than I do infuriate me .
I have had a close family member do this to me.
Merinda
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Amelie-Laveau
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Post by Amelie-Laveau »

OH! Merinda, part of what you said happened to me. Early in my life, others were telling me what my sexuality should be. I was told basically be macho, find a girl,your a man now. When I found girls I was insulted and made fun of. I had girls dump me and they would run off with the lowest of lowlifes. The difference with me was, I wasn't so much a bad lover, I just didn't like girls, I was not attracted to them. But in my teen years I was brainwashed to believe, that I had to be with women. I prefer the men, though it's been a long time since I been with anyone, like the GGs I'm picky. Now the strange part of attraction. I like the men, but I'm not attracted to CDs even though they are men. Once they dress they are women, I always see them as women even when they dress as men. I can be close to them but no relationship can occur. It's sort of like a GG, she will be romanticly involved with a man, Now if that man dressed in drag, more than likely she will dump him, even though he is still a man she seen him as a woman. Same with me if I see a man in drag that's it he can be a friend but not a lover. Why I don't know, just is. Now I admit there are people out there that are unreadable or gender neutral, but those are the exceptions, I am basically saying what roles "society" tells us men and women are. I now you're supposed to look on the inside for beauty, but the persons outer appearance is what strikes you first. Outer beauty has to count for something, I know it's in the eye of the beholder, but he is still seeing outer beauty, just differently. Like the girls who insulted Merinda and laughed at me, then ran off with some creeps, they were not looking for inner beauty, hope they found what they were looking for.
I saw the movie Crying Game, I thought it was great! I even bought the poster because I liked it so much. At the end of the movie the...........................something like that


Love ( and now confused) Amelie
Merinda
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Post by Merinda »

Thanks Amelie ,

I am going back many years but I bare deep scares from the experience , I tried everything to start a relationship with a woman , but women thought that I was from a different planet with two heads .

Frustrated and looking for answers of why women dont like me , certain people ( some close ) decided that the reason I didn't have a girlfriend was because I dont want one and sugested that perhaps I was interested in men.
This made me angry and still does .

SUPRISE - SUPRISE ! when I eventually formed a relationship with a young lady ( now my wife ) all these people who kept their distance from me suddenly wanted to be my friend .
I dont like false friends so they were told where to go very sharply.
Merinda
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Anita
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Post by Anita »

Hello everyone!
A fine thread going here. I'll make comments on what people have said in a minute. Editorial first...

In my time performing as a woman, I've seen over and over that straight men are attracted to us. In a stage setting, it's OK to like an attractive T-girl. As a heterosexual guy most of my life, who better knows what men like about women? I know how to present the package.

So just what is it that they like here? I've always said that the DNA kicks in, and if our eyes see a woman, we react to her. It's hard-wired, and we don't stop to go, "but...but...she's not really...I mean..." It just happens to us, and we have to figure it out later. RuPaul made a lot of straight guys wonder just what this is all about. :(

If you go see a local production of "Hamlet," you don't keep telling yourself that the lead actor is just an accountant from downtown. You let the illusion unfold, and you want to help it work. That guy IS Hamlet for you, as long as he's staying in character.

I haven't learned how to put quotes in these answers. So...

Rebecca said seeing that the package caused the attraction (rather than the person) freed her up with women--they couldn't "intimidate me with an assault of lewd behaviour." I found this, too. Also, knowing that I could now create that package myself freed me up, too. Women weren't my only source of attractiveness and femaleness any more. I had my own version, and like any self-reliance (learning to fix your own car, for instance) it gave me a feeling of power that I had never had before.


CJ--"Her demeanour was a heady mixture of self-assurance and aloofness. I felt...like she could...teach me some things."

To me, everyone is an combination of energies. Maybe it's all the drugs I did, but male and female "feeling," or energy, is not dependent on the "container" that the energy is flowing into. Sorry to get so vague and new-agey here, but there's no better word at present than energy. It's the vibration I see in the eyes of another.

I run into "beings" that have a complex blend of some really intense male and female energies, and I get fascinated by them. So it sounds like your new neighbor has one of those blends. If she's presenting as a female, it's hard not to take that as the "container" for what you're seeing. It sneaks past that DNA filter! 8-[

Sophie--"you will only know the answer...if you actually come face to face with a sexy girl, who you found attractive but then found out was really a boy."

I'm afraid that what you'll usually get in those situations is anger, Sophie.
Even if the "deception" only went on for ten minutes, it's enough to upset some people. I don't think even our CD understanding of all this would keep us from being upset if we felt like we'd been led on. That's how emotional it is. [Rebecca talked of this, in another post...'If we are trying to come to terms with our social programming...imagine the confusion of someone totally unprepared.'] :shock:

Elizabeth--"Maybe what we're talking about is being loved and accepted. There is no denying that there comes an understanding with a sister [CD] that just does not exist anywhere else...I don't think we are talking about sexual attraction here."

I'd agree that there's no one who understands this as well as the ones who feel those same feelings. It's easy to get caught up in the CD public circuit, or even get caught up on a forum like this, because there's a connection here--we KNOW. :-k

I can feel a strong attraction to another CD, but it doesn't feel appropriate to act on that. It may happen someday, but it feels too much like "family." There's also a certain vulnerability and trust that I find in many CDs, and I don't want to disturb that.

Deborah and Elizabeth both said that they like what they see in the mirror, and are attracted to their images. I'm attracted to my best Anita appearance, too, and I find that fuels my wanting to present that image to men who I know will appreciate it. I live out my own attraction through them. I have no idea whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. Like many parts of CD life, I go where my instincts take me.


Darlene mentioned being upset because she was repulsed by a too-male picture of an attractive girl on this forum. This made me think. I know transsexual women who are biologically women now, and yet their male traits can get in the way of any attraction. It's kind of the reverse of the CD who's got a very appealing female act down, but ultimately is still a man. The packaging may be superficial, but it affects us very deeply.

Kersten talks about being afraid to meet anyone outside this forum. I'm not sure of all that goes into that. Is it that the male reality will not live up to the idealized female we tend to present here? I find myself blending my Anita voice into everyday use just for that reason--I no longer want such a big gap between the two selves. As an older man, I seem to be able to get away with it. So it would not be quite as jarring to hear me on the phone, say.

Curly--"In fact, I am more drawn to women who have a vague resemblance to me, or how I would like to look."

That's more my reason for looking at women myself, now, but it wasn't always so. I'm attracted to Anita-like traits I see, or outfits that would look good on me, too. Very different from my testosterone-driven youth.

Jassmine--"Now, for a confession...I have found myself sexually attracted to other women. Why? I admire beauty in all forms and for me beauty is quite the turn on. Would I act on that attraction, nope."

So you're facing the same thing the rest of us are. Beauty attracts us to CDs, too, but there's a wall we come to, where our appreciation is supposed to stop.

Merinda--"What gives anyone the right to know better than me about my sexuality?"

In our world of CDing, a LOT of people think they can make that assumption about us. It seems to go with the territory, and I hope you're not getting too many doses of it. As many have pointed out, it's the gay drag queens who are the most visible to John and Jane Public. The more married CDs who come out, the better, but those are the ones who often pay a heavier price for doing so.

Amelie--"Now, the strange part of attraction. I like the men, but I'm not attracted to CDs even though they are men."

We're not putting out a male appearance "package," so I'm not surprised at that. We don't act like men, and we don't look like them, either. There's no surface appeal in that.

I have come to appreciate men, and I can now see that I didn't think much of them before. In a strange way, I'm trying to be consistent. I've watched attractive women abuse the power their beauty gave them. I'm determined not to abuse whatever power of attraction I might have now, and yet I don't see myself wanting ongoing relationships with either men or women at this point. So it's tough to know how to behave sometimes.


I'm not sure such a long post is a good idea, but it's done now.
Anita
Last edited by Anita on Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Amelie-Laveau
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Post by Amelie-Laveau »

Good for you Merinda, I'm glad for you. Even though it was for different reasons why girls were nasty to us, the hurt was the same.

Love Amelie
Jassmine(SO)
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Post by Jassmine(SO) »

Hi Anita,


Marvelous post!=D>
I've watched attractive women abuse the power their beauty gave them


I too, have seen this not only with women but with men as well. I guess that is why I have always been attracted to peoples inner beauty. To me if the inner beauty isn't there, the outer beauty, isn't so beautiful or attractive.

I was the girl who dated the nerds and the geeks 8) Heck, I married one ##oo## I never went for all that macho, bad boy, crap. And I think that old saying, "Beauty is only skin deep, while ugly goes straight to the bone." is true.

True beauty comes from with not without.

*Hugs & Love* @->->- *^^*
Blessings Eternal, Jassmine

"Love is unconditional acceptance. That quality is also our essential nature, who we really are."
--Peter Shepherd
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Amelie-Laveau
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Post by Amelie-Laveau »

Jassmine, you're right if the inner beauty isn't there, the outer isn't so beautiful. The same can be said in reverse. I'm stretching it a little with my example: I met a few homeless people in NY, basically unattractive outer beauty but some had remarkable inner beauty, but no one saw the inner beauty because of their outward appearance. So there outward appearance played a role in who would talk to them. "Society" brainwashed us into believing they were no good bums. Similar can be sasid for CDs "Society" says if they dress like that, something must be wrong with them, so people do not have the chance to see our inner beauty. There are to many rules out in the world telling people how to behave. Even some in the CD world have a rules that a CD should follow.
Example: You should have a fem name or you have to sit very dainty like a GG, you most train your voice, you must try to pass when in public, these are just a few Cd rules. Everyone should be what they want regardless of what other people think, including CDs.

PS-Not you girls, your all very nice here

Love Amelie
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Post by Chantelle »

If you go see a local production of "Hamlet," you don't keep telling yourself that the lead actor is just an accountant from downtown. You let the illusion unfold, and you want to help it work. That guy IS Hamlet for you, as long as he's staying in character.
That is a great point. I think everyone in society is putting on an identity performance of some sorts. Goffman used to say that we hide our real selves most of the time and rarely show our true selves.
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