Changes

[Beauty]

I've had the laser facial hair removal and plan on having ba surgery in 2006.

I think I'm like you Beauty, I don't even consider myself female or male now, just a special sex lol Does BA mean Breast sugery? I'm thinking I will have the facial hair removed first aswell and then consider the breasts but like you, it's a few years down the line yet.

Sophie xx

Hi Sophie,

I think we are a lot a like too. I just didn't want to say it in case I was wrong and you were like, "no we're not" You were right about what BA meant. The A is for augmentation.

I'd suggest the facial hair removal first because it does kind of mess with your mind a little. What I mean is my facial hair is really, really, not growing back. Since some things can't be undone I am recommending you really think about the next steps because of my own experience.

So one morning after one of my initial sessions I was watching television and I saw someone that I'd never seen before who had a beard and for some reason I just spaz'd out for almost 15 minutes, if not longer. I started realizing I'd removed a "part" of my manhood forever. I will not be growing hair on my face anymore (though at that time I wasn't sure and now I am). I've said in other posts I haven't shaved my upper lip in over 6-8 months and haven't shaved the rest of my face in over 4-5 months. So anyway, back to the spaz moment. I realized, OMG! if this is true, I can't grow facial hair. I thought about the whole world looking at me differently. I thought about how if I needed to do anything where I needed facial hair to be more manly looking that it wouldn't be an option. It was the longest 15 minutes I can remember in a while.

Then I started thinking about the benefits. I started looking at the women on the television and realizing for the first time in my life I was finally able to relate with women in a physical way. That calmed me down, but it was still a HUGE moment of clarity for me. I took a step to change me and make me happy although it was against a social norm.

Then I thought about how much people who have SRS surgery have to go through mentally. I realized that mentally facial hair removal was nothing compared to that. I also then reflected on how important it was to take things slow. I now know that my facial hair removal is permanent. It's not like taking hormones or anything you can stop. SRS is super final and when it's done you've taken a step that physically defines you and now I know, to a lesser degree, so does permanent facial hair removal. Ok, I'm going to deep here, but I just wanted to tell you that taking it slow is a good idea. It's very heavy.

When I'm in a room of men, I see their hair or scruff and I'm like, "Hmm? That won't ever be me again." It makes me happy. In fact, it's now become a game for me to be in a meeting and look at men's faces and think back to when I had to shave.

So. I guess I've really gone a long way to say, "Yes, do the laser surgery first." I gave myself a few years to think about BA and I'm still just as sure as I was before that this is what I want to do with my body to make me feel like I should or want to. I don't plan on getting anything that I can't hide when I walk around as a male.

Sorry for running on so long. I'm available whenever or if ever you need anything.

Beauty

[TamaraSegunda]

Dear Beauty:

What an interesting and insightful post! You reminded me of a survey I read probably 25 years ago. A sampling of men was asked, "Do you enjoy shaving every day?" A large majority of those asked said it was a pain. Then they were asked, "How likely is it that you will grow facial hair -- a beard or a mustache?" Only a small percentage indicated a strong likelihood. Finally they were asked, "If you could take a pill that would eliminate your beard altogether, so you never needed to shave again, would you do it?" Fewer than a third said they would do it. Your reaction thus seems perfectly normal, but it also illustrates to me how all of us are in thrall to societal norms. Love,
Tamara Segunda (who certainly would take such a pill)

[Lydia]

Beauty,

How is this for a thought:
Man's daily facial shaving is a symbolic self-castration.

Also:
" Though women must weep
And men musr slave,
I'd rather menstruate
Than shave."

Willy

[SophieLawson]

Beautyyyy

Did you used to grow your facial hair it or shave it off all the time? I wonder if most cross dressers grow facial hair to try and appear more manly?

Facial hair is quite an important part of my boy mode, but I wonder if that's just cos my hair grows so quickly that I don't like shaving everyday unless I'm dressing up.

As for breasts... One day

*hugs*

Sophie xx

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

This thread brings up such an interesting topic. Which is when our perceptions of what we want, meet the reality of what we want. I clearly am weighing many such issues in my life.

The irreversable, that is what we are talking about. It is more than just facial hair or breast augmentation, whether by implants or hormones. And indeed SRS is the ultimate of irreverable acts. What I am talking about are the more subtile things, may prove to impact us more than we thought, just as Beauty found out about facial hair removel.

For me, the most important and irriversable thing I have done, has been to accept myself. Because now, I can not turn back. I know that this is what I am, and no matter what else happens to me, I will always be a transgendered person. Before I had the safety of the "closet". I know, you are saying "weren't you miserable in the closet?". Yes, I was, but I was safe. I did not have to confront any of the issues that I now "must" confront. And if all that were not enough, I even had someone to blame. I could blame my wife, it was her keeping me in there, it was her keeping me from being who I truely wanted. But the real truth is that I was very much afraid of coming out. And had she not outted me to my brother, I would say, I would most likely still be safely in the closet, and I would not be writing this post.

It is more than just me accepting myself. I have made decisions to tell all the people in my life about me. They also can not "not know" now. And it does change relationships. Some it improves, some it worsens. But none the less, these actions are irrevocable. My children's friends can not "not know", my best friend can not "not know". And my community can not "not know".

I am not sure I gave the proper amount of gravity to these decisions. I mean, I feel I made the correct desicions, but like Beauty, I have my moments of indecision.

It is for these reasons that I feel so alone at times. There is just no one who can help make these decisions. And no one knows what will turn out to be the right decisions. I am sure there are many out there who see my decisions, and to them, they would not be the right decisions, but for me, they seem to be.

I would be lying though, if I said that the irrevocabity of these actions doesn't weigh heavily on me. So I understand the message the Beauty has brought with this thread, and apppaud her for doing so. This is a subject that we all could discuss much more than we have.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[CJ]

Hi all,

Hmmmm... we're not in the Crossdresser Zone, here, nor in the Transsexual Zone; we're in the Transgenderist Zone. Way to go, Beauty.

Changes, eh? Yes, I've considered changes too. I'm still trying to unravel the threads of my identity, however. Though the COGIATI (which I took many times over the past several years) pegs me as a Class 4 Transsexual (Late Onset), I just don't see that, whenever I look deeply within myself (and I've looked deep!).

One thought that does keep coming back is, "I want to permanently get rid of my body and facial hair." Right now, though, it's not something I'm seriously considering. Still, and to be honest, if I really did have wads of cash at my disposal, I'm just not sure if I'd want to stop myself from doing just that. A hairless man is still in an androgynous gender zone, after all; BA (or any other kind of surgery) just doesn't appeal to me. This attitude of mine has much to do with my very strong desire not to be "locked into" one gender or the other. As many of you know, I like to "slide around" on the rainbow.

Like Elizabeth, I think the most irreversible thing I've done so far is to actually step out of the closet (especially in the past year). Unlike Elizabeth, though, I have no doubts whatsoever that I did (and am doing) the right thing by letting others know who I truly am. Then again, at the moment, I don't really have anyone other than myself to think about, so any self-revelation (or physical changes, for that matter) will ultimately affect nobody but myself. This, in itself, gives me the strength to be who I am, even at the risk of shocking (or, at the very least, disquieting) other people. So, as you can see, I'm not as "courageous" as some people make me out to be.

Beauty, I find you're on a very, very interesting road. In many ways, you're blazing a trail, here (and so is Elizabeth, in her own way). Just be careful where you're swinging that machete, eh?

Love,
CJ

[Virginia]

You ladies had better start thinking about my theory, that we are indeed the next phase in human evolution. Androgeny (spelling) is a phase, but we are on the cutting edge of something really neat and some of us are ahead of the curve in one area while others are ahead in others and yet others are just sticking their toe in to test the water - Ain't it GREAT??!!!!
Love ya all!!!
Virginia

[Anita]

Hi Beauty--
That's some thread you opened up. I have certainly looked down that road, the one where permanent changes happen, and I see myself going there in some ways. I would have little hesitation about removing my beard, for instance.

Two of my closet friends now are a post-op woman and a pre-op woman. Being around them, I sometimes get really upset at the idea that I might move on into hormones, for instance. At the same time, I could never had imagined how I live NOW, ten years ago, or even five. So I can't say, "I'd never do that," when it comes to almost anything TG. That is not comforting to me, to say the least.

Elizabeth, I can see why your decisions weigh more heavily on you. While everyone hears about Anita at some point, they don't have to see her in person. You're living more full-time than most, and that brings up concern left and right. I'm more like CJ, in that I have no one close to me who's directly affected. It's much easier to navigate when you have no close observers who are going to say, "You're doing what?!"
A

[Beauty]

Normally I just respond in one big post, but the responses are kind of different, so I'll do my best to combine them if one doesn't get too long.

Yes Sophie, I totally was getting to the point where I couldn't go without shaving everyday because I'd have stubble by at least the end of the second day. I had always prided myself about how little my facial hair grew, but testosterone was kicking in to it's late stages and so hair was starting to grow under my chin, the chin to neck area, and I was like, "Ok, that's too much." I didn't ever want to start shaving that area. As it was I believe I'd convinced myself it wasn't going to happen.

Regarding BA. Take your time there. There's surely lots to think about.

Willy that was a very interesting thought. I think if we told a group of men that, they'd never shave again.... after they picked their jaws up off the ground.

I'm not so sure that I'd rather menstruate than shave. I think if given the choice, knowing I couldn't bare a child either way. I'd go with the shaving and then cheat by going in for laser hair removal.

Thanks Willy!

Tamara that was a very interesting survey indeed. It really was quite traumatic (those 15 minutes) when I realized what I'd done was a no going back thing. I think those results are probably right in line with a national norm.

Believe it or not your post actually helps me feel more normal about my reaction. I really appreciate you posting those results.

Beauty

[Beauty]

Hi Elizabeth,

Thanks for posting in this thread. You bring up a very good point and allow me to separate something.

You're correct. I am talking about the irreversible. However I was applying them to physical irreversible actions, not those actions that apply to relationships. Coming out is indeed irreversible, but because it's not physical you can change it back should you decide one day, "You know what? This was all a mistake. I'll never dress again. I'll go back to my family and tell them it was all a huge mistake." People tend to forget and forgive. This doesn't make your actions reversible, but it's in a different light than a physical change where your sex or gender is altered and can't be undone.

Thanks for bringing this up and explaining how irreversible doesn't only apply to physical changes. I hope you understand what I mean. When I read your post I thought (and still think), "Wow, that's a very good point." Thankfully, like you I've also come out. I say thankfully because telling others was such a liberating experience. I have told two of my best friends, my wife, my mom and several friends too. I can tell you there is a difference between a physical change and telling people who were close to me, including family. It was not the same thing.

You also mentioned that like me you have moments of indecision. I apologize if I said that wrong. These thoughts allowed me to also think about what statement I'd made (like when you come out to people) but it also made me appreciate those who had other things done. Like MtF TSs who have had BA or women who are FtM TSs and have had their breasts removed. It helped me realize what I had done wasn't minor and I was stating, with my actions, where I wanted to go. It helped me realize that taking it slow is smart because though I thought it wasn't a big deal, there was a mental cost to my physical change. So I honestly had a moment of panic where I'd understood the levity of the action I'd taken by having the permanent hair removal. Thank God that was the only time I'd ever thought about "Oh my God!!! What did I do?" or questioned my decision. It was honestly over and never came back after that.

Now I wonder if the applause you so kindly gave me should be closer to a golf clap. My message was more of a message for those who make physical changes that are irreversible to their bodies. I wanted to let everyone know. Think about it very seriously. The great segue you added about thinking about this the same way for outting yourself is very pertinent to the topic too, but I didn't mean to draw the line to it. You did a great job doing it though and I think that is also important.

Beauty

[Beauty]

Hi CJ,

You're right about the zone we're in for sure. Thanks for the "Way to go" It meant a lot more than maybe you know. I do hope it's not offensive to anyone that it's not just about CD'ing.

We are the same with the COGIATI results. My score gets higher and higher and that's scary too. Darn those tests!!! Kidding! I do think I'll take it again today to see if anything has changed.

You really don't need a wad of cash to get the laser hair removal done. I paid for the year in advance and it was under 1.5k.

When I talk to people about BA (and one of the reasons I didn't respond to your post in another post is because of this issue) they (not you only) feel this action will define me as changing my sex/gender almost officially. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying, but I felt you kind of implied it because you said I'd be "locked into" one gender.

So here's my plan and my thinking. I'm not planning on looking like someone who when dressed as a male has breasts that show. It is also my hope to not look like a woman who looks like a man. I need the balance you referred too, so the BA will be very light (large A or small B). I could probably take hormones and get the desired affect, but I don't want to take those. From people I've talked to, including some here, they change your mind and way of thinking. I like the way I think now.

Here's where I sound like a hypocrite. I take a pill that tells my body it's produced enough testosterone and it doesn't need to produce anymore, but I don't want to hormones that feminize my body in a temporary way or more than I'd like it to. Then I plan on getting FFS to get rid of what I consider too manly of a jaw line, but a lot of the effects of feminine hormones could probably lessen that so I wouldn't need that, but I don't want to take those hormones.

Here's my fear there. I want to wake up everyday looking a certain way without thinking if I stop taking "X thing" I will go back to who I was before. With surgery it will most likely be that way. I am wise enough in this world, through life experience to know nothing is guaranteed, but this is why I've chosen to take this track vs. the hormones track.

I still like having sex with my wife. The testosterone blockers I'm taking allow me to medicate myself so my skin is much softer, I'm not so riled up anymore, but I can still use the part of me that makes my wife say, "Yes, I have my husband!" I can over-medicate and make it so that part of me isn't usable, but that's not my desired end state. I do know I hate testosterone, but it helps keep bones strong and like I said before helps me keep my wife satisfied. So if I had surgery to make sure no testosterone is delivered to my body then I'd have to wear a testosterone patch or take a pill. That just doesn't seem to right to me. I'll keep what I have until technology catches up with this, like it has with the other two things.

Ok, some of those paragraphs weren't to CJ only they were to the forum, but now I will go back to her.

Thank you CJ for qualifying for me that I am on a unique/interesting road. There's not a lot out there for people like me, but having friends who give support, no matter what helps. THANK YOU!!!

BTW... I totally laughed out loud when I read, "Just be careful where you're swinging that machete."

Beauty

[Beauty]

Hi Virginia,

YES! It's totally great! It's another one of the kwazillion reasons I love it here.

I don't know which of those references I am. I was going to say I'm a sticking my toe in the water person, but then I realized I'm in the pool so that can't be it.

Thanks for responding Virginia!!


Bonjour Anita!

LOL. It does seem like I've opened up some kind of thread, huh? I rarely talk about me that much so it's kind of odd.

Why do you have a little hesitation about your beard?

I think hanging around TSs is a good thing because it can let you see you're not a TS. I always hear men saying they don't want to hang around gay men because it could make them gay. I don't think that can and I don't think you having close TG'd friends will change you.

Regardless Anita I wish you the best and thanks for participating in this thread!!!

Beauty

[CJ]

Hi all,

Beauty,

You're most welcome! You know, now that I think about it, I guess I wasn't necessarily equating physical changes with "being locked into one gender or the other." I realize that gender, as the popular saying goes, is "between the ears," not between the legs. Lining ourselves up with one gender or the other is just as much a psychological act as it can be a physical one, I guess.

Thanks for addressing that, Beauty! I stand corrected.

Love,
CJ

[Julie M.]

Beauty,

That was very insightful. I tried to put myself in that place, having no facial hair, and all I could see was a huge smile on my face. I may be in a different place than you, but maybe not. All I know for now is there's a lot to think about and your post made me think about the irreversible, something I never gave serious thought to.

CJ,

I don't want to sound like I'm kicking a dead horse here or that I'm getting paid to advertise this book, but I truly believe if you want to find out if you're TS or not, read "True Selves" by Mildred Brown. If you do that with an open mind and keep looking inside yourself to see what's there, you will know, almost for sure, if you're TS. I too scored high on the COGIATI and I too discounted the results. "It's just a stupid online test!" Maybe it is but it pegged me right.

Julie

[Anita]

Hi Beauty--
Well...I'm of two minds about hanging out with TS women. I'm OK with it at the moment. You're right about comparing myself with them--when I first discovered I was transgendered in some way, I didn't know just how much! It happened almost overnight, and I was confused as to what it meant. By going to TG support meetings, I could see that I wasn't TS, but I was definitely going to have to go out in public as a woman. So it cleared that up for me.

But...while hanging out with TS women doesn't automatically create a need to "go there," I do believe that it helps accelerate those tendencies if they are already there. So that's what bothers me. I'm secure here in my male cocoon, and if I just keep a low profile, maybe the TS stork won't find my house, I'm thinking. Hanging out with TS women and running a TS support group meeting once a month is not "low profile" at all!

Oh, my other post said I'd have "little hesitation," meaning: not much at all. It is such a bother having to apply beard cover every time I want or need to go out dressed. I've had my full beard at times in my life, so I don't need to do that again. Getting rid of body hair--I do have mixed feelings about that. But that's not a daily issue, like the beard is.