Where is the line?

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

I was just wondering if someone could tell me just exactly where the line is between male and female desire? How can we be certain that anything we feel is really what we are supposed to be feeling? And does it really matter?

Recently my oldest son sat me down for a talk. He was looking for some honest answers. He prefaced it by saying that he totally accepted me, and that while it was difficult at first, he was really happy about the way I am now. But he asked me what was down the road. Was there another bombshell waiting to go off.

What he wanted to know was, was I still holding back? Was I going to tell everyone at some future date that I want to actually transition. And he told me quite frankly that the thought of me transitioning was not a problem for him, but what he really feared was that I may be repressing it. This was his biggest concern because what he feared the most was the suicidal behavior. Not the thought that I might transition.

We had a very frank discussion and I told him about how I wanted to be a girl for most of my life. I told him how I would never transition. First because I have borderline high blood pressure. Which would make taking female hormones out of the question. But mostly a sense that I would still not really be a girl. And that emotionally I am just not sure that transitioning would make me feel any better about that.

I went on to tell him that although I had accepted the fact that I would never transition, just as I accepted the fact that I am transgendered, if medical science advanced to where I could take hormones without it endangering me, I would love to have my own breasts.

At this point my son interjected and said "who wouldn't dad? I mean I want my own breasts. If I had my own breasts I would never go out, I would stay at home and play with them all day". Which of course cracked me up, but he was serious about this point. There are many men who would love to have breasts, it if were socially acceptable and medically possible.

So it made me wonder, where is the line really? There are plenty of guys wearing girls jeans, and makeup now, in fact it's trendy. So if we have guys in girls clothes and makeup, who want to have thier own breasts? How are they different than me? It would seem that age is the factor here. As this fashion trend tends to involve those in thier teens and twenties.

The lines are blurring.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[RikkiOfLA]

Hi Elizabeth,

That's a fascinating conversation you had with your son!

First of all, let me respond from my training to the questions you began with. Feelings are neither right nor wrong, appropriate nor inappropriate. What we do with them is what matters in that regard. A feeling is not wrong, but there are appropriate and healthy responses to it, as well as inappropriate and destructive ones.

Now on to the meat of your post, your conversation. First of all, I think it is quite possible that he is to some extent transgendered himself. I'm not sure that most men do want breasts. What I hear them saying is that they enjoy fondling and looking at women's breasts.

I would say the same things about the young men who wear girls jeans and wear makeup. Some of them may be transgendered. Some may do these things because among their friends or the musical groups they listen to, these things are in fashion.

Among the young, transgenderedness is, to a certain extent, in fashion. It has been for 10 years or so. There have been musicians that have capitalized on androgyny for quite some time, from Mick Jagger to Alice Cooper to David Bowie on down. To each new generation it's shocking. It gets people's attention. It may stem from some level of trangendered feeling in the musician, or it may just be an attention-getting gimmick.

I remember when I was a kid, trying to make sense of my transgendered yearnings, I alternated between the thought that nobody else on earth understood my feelings, and the thought that maybe secretly all men had the same fantasies I did. The truth, of course, is somewhere in between. There are plenty of people who can understand my feelings. A small number of people have desires to be the opposite sex, to wear their clothes, and so on. But, of course, there is only one inhabitant ino my head. My exact thoughts belong uniquely to me, even though I might be able to communicate them well enough to strike a chord in other people. As a matter of fact, I'm working on that. Deep inside every great teacher there is probably a little kid struggling to have other people understand his or her feelings. That little kid helped propel them to greatness.

So what percentage of men are crossdressers? Good question! In our society, just over half the men surveyed admitted trying on a women's garment at least once in their lives. Does that make them all crossdressers? Of course not. They may have grabbed the wrong sweater out of the laundry. They may have done it on a dare. Did they like the feeling, or dislike it, or not care? Did they repeat the experience?

There is a broad continuum of human experience. Only in diagnosticians' minds do people fall always into neat little categories, where it is clear the difference between transsexuals and crossdresseers, and between crossdressers and "normal" men. Many things affect our desires from day to day.

Some day, your son may surprise you by being crossdressed himself. Or maybe not. The good news is that he understood and could relate to some of your feelings. Good people often surprise us that way. Sounds like you raised him well.

[Loretta Ann]

Where is the line Elizabeth?

There it is dear, it is blurred, difficult to see, we are all so different, with no one exactly the same. We humans are one of the greatest mixes there is.

I like to view it as though it is on a scale, and none of us are exactly in the same place.

Enjoy your son hon. he is a special gift to you.

Darlene.

[Violet]

Perhaps it's stupid thatthere was ever a 'line' in the first place. Perhaps it's to the good that the 'line' eventually dissolve, and that everyone find their own place in the continuum. Borders are for suckers.

[Virginia]

I agree with my sister, Darlene! I too see us on a scale so to speak. We are all at different points, some standing still some moving in various directions so I guess depending on where you are and if you are gong somewhere the view changes.
Virginia

[DonnaT]

The line? There is no one line. We have our own levels of acceptance. Of feeling for what is right or wrong. Others have theirs.

What we feel is what we feel, and should not be based on how others think we should feel.

The younger kids are only following paths cut out by others, such as yourself.

The lines only blur because of how more open everyone is. However, there are many lines, and sadly they won't all fade.

[Ahzz]

Your own line is define by your own wishes, desires and expriences. It is a result of that self exploration.

[Sally]

Hi Elizabeth,

I don't believe we can draw lines between men and women, men and men or women and women, because every person is an individual and there as many possible variations as there are humans.

We're taught from our earliest memories that humans come in two basic varieties, male and female and that we are either one or the other. This may be true to some degree for re-productive purposes but it doesn't account for each and every one of us. What makes us individual human beings is much more than simply our capacity to reproduce, yet we are taught that we are either boys or girls and our behaviour should correspond to each role.

What is particularly ironical is that our identity is publicly assumed by what's between our legs, but those items must never be revealed in public. To me, the true identity of any human being lies in their brain, not between their legs and there are as many variations of 'brain sex' as there are human beings. Any individual can think in either male or female ways and it also varies within the one individual, depending on what they are doing at any given time and can be influenced by internal or external factors. Some parts of us may even identify with one gender and other parts with the another, but to me there is no absolute right or wrong. Who is qualified above all others to make that judgment?

I'm not suggesting that such a thing as male or female doesn't exist, what I'm suggesting is that we possess the energy to fulfill both roles. I apply the principle in the philosophy of Yin and Yang, which teaches that there is never one aspect without the other in any being. To me there isn't any necessity to be confined to one or the other so we are limited to just a single set of gender feelings, behaviours or expressions.

Our conditioning starts from our earliest time to become real men or real women and we also learn at an early age that acting like the other is unacceptable, but I also think we learn from a very early age that being forced to act in ways which doesn't feel right within us, we then get that feeling of being separated from half of who we actually are, plus, at these early times in our lives is when 'the lines are being drawn', unfortunately beyond our control, which means that at a later stage in life we have to go through an 'unlearning' period. This 'unlearning' period in our lives is usually preceded by times of confusion, disbelief, anger, frustration, guilt etc etc. and it's a very unstable period in our life, not just for us but usually those around us who love us.
Gee, don't I just love it when people refer to my 'CHOSEN" lifestyle.

Those who teach us 'those lines' are only carrying on the tradtions handed down through the generations and until there is a generational change in thinking and knowledge, men will still feel guilty about things seen as feminine, such as crying, needing support or being weak or vulnerable and women may feel it not right that they publicly show anger and stand up for their rights or request their independancy plus their right to be heard. These situations become a no win situation, we're damned if we do and inside us we are damned if we don't. In both men and women it leads to feelings if unfulfillment if we ignore our inner needs and it can be an emotional and physical drain on on us by always 'going along' with what's expectedof us in our perceived gender roles.

I believe that each and every human being deserves the right of fulfillment in their life and a part of that fulfillment may take the form of expressing Yin and Yang. Some have the need to assume the aspects of one gender on one occaison and on other occaisons express another gender and this can be a way of realising their whole value as a human being, only they can tell, nobody else can speak for them.

I think that if we accept that all our functions, physically and mentally are controlled and originate from the brain and that 'brain sex' is a controlling factor in our lives, then we must accept that there are as many variations of 'brain sex' as there are live human beings. No two people are exactly alike.

Every human being is only who and what they are, nothing more, nothing less and sooner or later the truth will come to the fore. I refer to my analogy of many years ago. Once a duck always a duck. You can artifically hatch a duck from an egg and you can raise it with a litter of kittens, but sooner or later nature will decree what the duck does. Just because it's raised with a litter of kittens it won't grow up to do what kittens do, the duck will fly and seek water etc. and do what it was created to naturally do, and it's the same with human beings, we are the product of our soul and we must be allowed to live our natural lives or else we will never realise our true value as a human being.

I believe that nobody should have to live a lie because of an imaginary line. It's a big lie that all human beings are either one of two exclusive biological sexes and this is borne out at the extreme end of the scale in no small way by the existence of the large number of intersexed people born each year, plus hermaphrodites etc. let alone those at the lesser end of the scale and all in between.

I also believe that it's not people such as Gays, Lesbians, Bi-Sexuals, Crossdressers, Transsexuals or any other part of the mix who are living the lie, it's those in the community who refuse to accept that these people are a part of the mix of humanity as a whole and that it's always been that way and always will, unless science eventually 'programmes' babies, which will happen one day, even if not in the lifetime of any living individual today. History shows us that once man has the knowledge, capability and means to do anything, sooner or later he will.

My Kindest Regards,

Sally.

[Violet]

Gah!! Blinded by the eloquence!!
I couldn't possibly have said it better.

[Cathy L. Anderson]

Hi Elizabeth,

I was just wondering if someone could tell me just exactly where the line is between male and female desire? How can we be certain that anything we feel is really what we are supposed to be feeling? And does it really matter?

For me, the answer is very simple:

1 -- Any distinction between male and female desire is completely arbitrary. We are genetically endowed with bodies that experience a wide range of desires and feelings. Any separation of some feelings as "male" and some as "female" is the result of socialization, not biology.
2 -- There is no rulebook that determines what we are "supposed to" be feeling.

For me, it is extremely important the crossdressers understand the essential 'bisexuality' (or, if you prefer, bi-genderism) of human nature.
If they don't, they they are easily led to reason, "Oh, I have all these 'female' desires. Obviously that means I should change genders."

Cathy

[Virginia]

Is Sally amazing or what !!!!!????
It is society that has yet to learn that within the human experience there is such a marvelous variety of humanity, diversity reigns supreme, but "society" does not yet comprehend the manifestations of this rainbow of varied peoples out there. I, in my limited experience, can name several categories, male, female, transsexual, transgender (pre- and post op.) lesbian, homosexual (gay) and us - crossdressers. I know there are more but that is 8 which is what 4 X's what basic society recognizes, i.e., male and female.
What a marvelous world if we just take our blinders off!!
Virginia

[Raven(SO)]

I would galdly give you mine if i could, they are a pain in the butt and only extra weight..

Love Ya
Raven

[Beauty]

Yes Sally is amazing!

I also think the line shouldn't be drawn, but I feel in society the line is drawn at celebrity. What I mean is you can get away with this or that depending how famous you are. I think the line is drawn when it's fashion for window of time. In the late 80's and early 90s you could get away with more of a femme look than you can today. I think the line is drawn with presentation. Those who look more attractive are accepted easier than those who aren't. There are lots more lines for sure. The only good news is a line drawn today is not guaranteed to be the line that's drawn the next day/month/year/decade.

With that being said I still agree there shouldn't be any lines drawn. An example of a celebrity line was a man who had breast surgery because he lost a bet. After the surgery he said he liked them and though he got them to pay for the bet he decided not to have them removed. He later changed his mind when he said men wouldn't stop touching them. He was accepted by most though because he was in the celebrity line. It was publicized that he'd lost a bet.

I hope in eternity line will be erased and people will be judged for who they are. It's a dream, yes, but I like dreams.

Beauty