Hi girls,
These kinds of discussions used to really bother me. I was worried that there would be so many hard feelings that no one would ever be able to support anyone again.
However I have grown, as has the forum, and it has become apparent to me that these kinds of discussions are not only necessary, but actually good for the forum, in many regards.
For me it is real simple. If I have to worry about who I might offend with every post I write? I am never going to write anything. If I cared about offending others, I would not be able to go out dressed. There are just too many people in this world who are looking to be offended. And they spend a great deal of thier energy expressing thier anger at how offended they are.
I agree with what Kay(SO) says about being able to come here and post whatever she wants without regard to whether happens to be positive or negative. But you can't ask people not to be offended, because someone is always going to be offended. If for no other reason than they want to be. They are looking for a reason to be offended.
It is the price you pay when you present your feelings and views in a public forum, regardless of whether it is on the internet, or a cocktail party.
In my view Shannon expressing his offense at what he read on a public forum is no different. He has every right to do that, and if he is worried about who he offends, he would not be able to write it.
Having said all that, the forum has rules. Specifically, that certain things are so offensive that they are not permitted. However, within the relm of what is permissable, anyone who is offended by what they read, and decides to either leave or not post is making a decision for themselves.
I am not certain that the back and forth about who offended who, when and where, is particularly useful. Other than the value of venting for emotional release. I mean if anyone wants to vent and say how they disagree with what I write, they are more than welcome to, but don't be suprised if I am not moved by the post detailing what I said that offends. Which seems to be the bulk if this thread. Everyone has a right to post what they feel. However the expectation that anyone is going to react to, or change thier behavior as a result is most likely just wishful thinking, in my honest opinion.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Been trying for a week now to word this.... (Strong Topic)
Moderators: KimberlyS, Eileen (SO)
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Again, interesting points were raised, here.
To me, the following stand out (and I'll briefly comment on each, in turn):
[S]o many people responded. And so quickly! To me, that speaks the truth about the integrity and honesty of this forum. People here really care. This is what ought to be kept in mind, first and foremost, I think. After all, it's the reason we're all here. We care what happens (to both ourselves and to others) and we care about each other's feelings. If we really didn't care about each other's feelings, we'd have no use for this forum.
If I've got someone here telling me what I should and shouldn't post or how I should or shouldn't feel then the whole purpose of having a support group appears to me to be moot. True. Support means offering to take on some of the weight carried by another person--even if you feel it's not your logical responsibility to do so--until that person is strong enough to carry that weight on her own again. It doesn't mean adding your own weight on that person's shoulders.
No one has the right to tell someone else how they "should" feel. Agreed. And no one could, even if they tried.
My concern now is that there will be many SO's who will not post anymore at all based on this discussion. They may be afraid that they will sound too negative so why bother posting their feelings here to have someone complain about it. This is my own central concern. As I've said elsewhere, the fact that SO's actually come here is the one distinctive and characteristic feature that sets this forum apart from all the other pornographic drivel-driven garbage out there. The SO's come here because both the rules and the members themselves contribute to an atmosphere where the SO's feel it's safe to participate.
How an SO expresses herself in her attempt to understand us will no doubt vary, but, for those SO's willing to even discuss it would seem like a blessing to the cross-dresser. And it is a blessing. But only to those who can actually listen and are willing to learn. Those CD's who automatically adopt a confrontational and argumentative stance--without even having properly heard and understood what an SO is saying--are shooting themselves in both feet; they deprive themselves of the opportunity to gain a little insight into what life can look like from a woman's point of view and they alienate those very people they wish would support them. Suspend your judgment at least long enough to hear not just what is being said but what is being felt.
[W]hen referring to other people there is no place for the word "should." If you want to be written off by me, just telling me what I should or shouldn't do or be doing will do the trick like nothing else. Just to clear something up: nowhere does Kay refer to what she should or shouldn't do. She's talking about a situation where she was told what she should or shouldn't feel. It's completely different. People tell us all the time what we should or shouldn't do. And we're forever telling people what they should or shouldn't do. This, we can let slide like water off a duck's back, if we wish. But, think about it; it doesn't even make any sense to ask someone that they shouldn't feel what they feel. To use an example from within our own group, how do we feel when someone--no matter how well intentioned--tells us we shouldn't "feel like a girl inside... it's not appropriate"?
I believe that in any mixed group of people it will be impossible to create a situation where everyone will be able to feel safe. And if some are turned away by that reality it may be a good thing. Again, this belief is absolutely, positively, completely antithetical to the purpose of this forum. The purpose of this forum is to offer a sense of community and support. Its aim is to make all who come here feel welcome and safe, not to turn them away. "Reality" is what we make of it. If, for whatever reasons, we refuse to work towards creating a situation where everyone will be able to feel safe, we will all become the poorer for it.
I think there comes a time (which probably occurs more than once in our life) when there is wisdom in being able to flush so that we can move on. Absolutely! I completely agree. But, in this place, where people come because they, themselves, feel they've been flushed by the world (or, worse, shat on), this wisdom is moot. In our lives, there also come moments when there is more wisdom in reaching out a hand and helping someone out of the toilet bowl they believe their life to be.
[T]hese kinds of discussions are not only necessary, but actually good for the forum, in many regards. Again, agreed. But, it seems to me, only if we can listen as well as we orate.
[A]nyone who is offended by what they read, and decides to either leave or not post is making a decision for themselves. True. Good riddance! Who needs that person whose sensibilities are so effeminate? Seriously, we have to ask ourselves this: "Are we completely sure that we have done all we can not to make that person feel unwanted? especially in view of the fact that we advertise ourselves as a place where that person is welcome?" If, truly, we have no interest in discovering what the world looks like outside our own navels, then fine, let that person go. If, on the other hand, we really do want to try to figure out where we fit in--especially as crossdressers--in the lives of our loved ones, then it makes no sense to expect them to always play the game of communication by our own rules and in our own backyard. We have to bend a little, too; we have to go play in their backyard and by their rules, too, once in a while. This "You don't like it? Tough!" attitude gets nobody anywhere... and it gets them there fast.
I'm tired. I'm going to bed.
CJ
Again, interesting points were raised, here.
To me, the following stand out (and I'll briefly comment on each, in turn):
[S]o many people responded. And so quickly! To me, that speaks the truth about the integrity and honesty of this forum. People here really care. This is what ought to be kept in mind, first and foremost, I think. After all, it's the reason we're all here. We care what happens (to both ourselves and to others) and we care about each other's feelings. If we really didn't care about each other's feelings, we'd have no use for this forum.
If I've got someone here telling me what I should and shouldn't post or how I should or shouldn't feel then the whole purpose of having a support group appears to me to be moot. True. Support means offering to take on some of the weight carried by another person--even if you feel it's not your logical responsibility to do so--until that person is strong enough to carry that weight on her own again. It doesn't mean adding your own weight on that person's shoulders.
No one has the right to tell someone else how they "should" feel. Agreed. And no one could, even if they tried.
My concern now is that there will be many SO's who will not post anymore at all based on this discussion. They may be afraid that they will sound too negative so why bother posting their feelings here to have someone complain about it. This is my own central concern. As I've said elsewhere, the fact that SO's actually come here is the one distinctive and characteristic feature that sets this forum apart from all the other pornographic drivel-driven garbage out there. The SO's come here because both the rules and the members themselves contribute to an atmosphere where the SO's feel it's safe to participate.
How an SO expresses herself in her attempt to understand us will no doubt vary, but, for those SO's willing to even discuss it would seem like a blessing to the cross-dresser. And it is a blessing. But only to those who can actually listen and are willing to learn. Those CD's who automatically adopt a confrontational and argumentative stance--without even having properly heard and understood what an SO is saying--are shooting themselves in both feet; they deprive themselves of the opportunity to gain a little insight into what life can look like from a woman's point of view and they alienate those very people they wish would support them. Suspend your judgment at least long enough to hear not just what is being said but what is being felt.
[W]hen referring to other people there is no place for the word "should." If you want to be written off by me, just telling me what I should or shouldn't do or be doing will do the trick like nothing else. Just to clear something up: nowhere does Kay refer to what she should or shouldn't do. She's talking about a situation where she was told what she should or shouldn't feel. It's completely different. People tell us all the time what we should or shouldn't do. And we're forever telling people what they should or shouldn't do. This, we can let slide like water off a duck's back, if we wish. But, think about it; it doesn't even make any sense to ask someone that they shouldn't feel what they feel. To use an example from within our own group, how do we feel when someone--no matter how well intentioned--tells us we shouldn't "feel like a girl inside... it's not appropriate"?
I believe that in any mixed group of people it will be impossible to create a situation where everyone will be able to feel safe. And if some are turned away by that reality it may be a good thing. Again, this belief is absolutely, positively, completely antithetical to the purpose of this forum. The purpose of this forum is to offer a sense of community and support. Its aim is to make all who come here feel welcome and safe, not to turn them away. "Reality" is what we make of it. If, for whatever reasons, we refuse to work towards creating a situation where everyone will be able to feel safe, we will all become the poorer for it.
I think there comes a time (which probably occurs more than once in our life) when there is wisdom in being able to flush so that we can move on. Absolutely! I completely agree. But, in this place, where people come because they, themselves, feel they've been flushed by the world (or, worse, shat on), this wisdom is moot. In our lives, there also come moments when there is more wisdom in reaching out a hand and helping someone out of the toilet bowl they believe their life to be.
[T]hese kinds of discussions are not only necessary, but actually good for the forum, in many regards. Again, agreed. But, it seems to me, only if we can listen as well as we orate.
[A]nyone who is offended by what they read, and decides to either leave or not post is making a decision for themselves. True. Good riddance! Who needs that person whose sensibilities are so effeminate? Seriously, we have to ask ourselves this: "Are we completely sure that we have done all we can not to make that person feel unwanted? especially in view of the fact that we advertise ourselves as a place where that person is welcome?" If, truly, we have no interest in discovering what the world looks like outside our own navels, then fine, let that person go. If, on the other hand, we really do want to try to figure out where we fit in--especially as crossdressers--in the lives of our loved ones, then it makes no sense to expect them to always play the game of communication by our own rules and in our own backyard. We have to bend a little, too; we have to go play in their backyard and by their rules, too, once in a while. This "You don't like it? Tough!" attitude gets nobody anywhere... and it gets them there fast.
I'm tired. I'm going to bed.
CJ
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Loretta Ann
- Permanently Banned
- Posts: 2199
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:30 pm
- Location: Vancouver, Canada
My gosh CJ. am I glad that I have enough experience under my belt, and have had enough people who have turned around and shook my hand and thanked me for what I have done for them and told me that I was right, that I do not have to feel threatened and/or manipulated by your comments above.
I wonder how many will appreciate being told that they need to be helped out of the toilet bowl? What wisdom do you have for those who do not realize that is where they reside? Or are you willing to let them continue on their merry way until they reach a place where most of their life has been wasted, and then are forced to realize they have spent their lives in that toilet bowel. and as a result are more apt to consider such things as suicide, which I am sure you see your fair share of given the nature of the work you are involved in.
Some of those which I have been able to help will never need to walk through your office door, due the fact that they have been able to see the root cause of their problem, as opposed to having to deal with the symptoms. I see what you have written above as a one size fits all kind of concept. and there is simply more than one way to skin a cat.
You do not see every thing that happens here, some of what I have done has been done privately, due to the chance that you and others like you would likely impede the process due to your misunderstanding of what I am doing.
I know that is not what you would like to hear, and I have told you in the past that I do not enjoy defending myself at your expense. When one states things as absolutes as you have tended to do in your above post you open yourself up to this kind of thing. Are you not satisfied with helping those who you can, and allowing others to help those who they can? I do not have or want the skills you have to help people, and you do not have the skills that I have to help people. I can not help those who you will be able to help and you likely will not be able to help those who I am able to help.
One can not help every one and there probably are those among our midst who neither of us can help. We are not the Saviors of the world. And like it or not you do not have the handle that it appears you would like to on this corner of the world. And if you have a problem with that the administrators can let me know and I will consider getting out of here.
Love Darlene.
PS I would not tell anyone that they are living in a toilet bowl. That is something (if that is the situation) that I would like to help them discover on their own.
I wonder how many will appreciate being told that they need to be helped out of the toilet bowl? What wisdom do you have for those who do not realize that is where they reside? Or are you willing to let them continue on their merry way until they reach a place where most of their life has been wasted, and then are forced to realize they have spent their lives in that toilet bowel. and as a result are more apt to consider such things as suicide, which I am sure you see your fair share of given the nature of the work you are involved in.
Some of those which I have been able to help will never need to walk through your office door, due the fact that they have been able to see the root cause of their problem, as opposed to having to deal with the symptoms. I see what you have written above as a one size fits all kind of concept. and there is simply more than one way to skin a cat.
You do not see every thing that happens here, some of what I have done has been done privately, due to the chance that you and others like you would likely impede the process due to your misunderstanding of what I am doing.
I know that is not what you would like to hear, and I have told you in the past that I do not enjoy defending myself at your expense. When one states things as absolutes as you have tended to do in your above post you open yourself up to this kind of thing. Are you not satisfied with helping those who you can, and allowing others to help those who they can? I do not have or want the skills you have to help people, and you do not have the skills that I have to help people. I can not help those who you will be able to help and you likely will not be able to help those who I am able to help.
One can not help every one and there probably are those among our midst who neither of us can help. We are not the Saviors of the world. And like it or not you do not have the handle that it appears you would like to on this corner of the world. And if you have a problem with that the administrators can let me know and I will consider getting out of here.
Love Darlene.
PS I would not tell anyone that they are living in a toilet bowl. That is something (if that is the situation) that I would like to help them discover on their own.
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Kay(SO)
- E-mail address not valid - Contact Admin
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:03 am
- Location: North Carolina
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Curly(SO)
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 879
- Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:08 am
- Location: UK
I'm feeling a little guilty, that when an SO is having trouble dealing with her partner's CDing, I offer little help, but I think for the right reasons.
I'm very accepting of my hubby's CDing, it doesn't worry me at all anymore (apart from this odd little jealousy thing, but that is very much something that I know is silly, and I'm working on it!)
I would just feel wrong wading in with 'advice' on how to become more accepting, it would be patronizing, and telling someone how they 'should' feel is absolutely wrong. CDing stirs up such different emotions in us, all from widely varying up-bringings, religious and moral beliefs and social situations, that I just don't feel qualified to comment on how someone else is feeling. All I will do is offer an ear to listen, and let people know their feelings matter. Not forgetting our beloved CDing partners are hugely different from one another!
The only way we are going to learn and grow, is by hearing each others feelings, and that is the great thing about this forum. The fact that it IS for SOs and CDs is what makes it so good. Us SOs may post our negative thoughts here, but we spend far more time reading posts by CDers, and in doing so, we are gaining insight and learning greater understanding. I'm glad the fact that there is a lot of negativity on the SO board has been pointed out, actually I feel bad about that. I have taken that on board...
Love,
Curly(SO)
I'm very accepting of my hubby's CDing, it doesn't worry me at all anymore (apart from this odd little jealousy thing, but that is very much something that I know is silly, and I'm working on it!)
I would just feel wrong wading in with 'advice' on how to become more accepting, it would be patronizing, and telling someone how they 'should' feel is absolutely wrong. CDing stirs up such different emotions in us, all from widely varying up-bringings, religious and moral beliefs and social situations, that I just don't feel qualified to comment on how someone else is feeling. All I will do is offer an ear to listen, and let people know their feelings matter. Not forgetting our beloved CDing partners are hugely different from one another!
The only way we are going to learn and grow, is by hearing each others feelings, and that is the great thing about this forum. The fact that it IS for SOs and CDs is what makes it so good. Us SOs may post our negative thoughts here, but we spend far more time reading posts by CDers, and in doing so, we are gaining insight and learning greater understanding. I'm glad the fact that there is a lot of negativity on the SO board has been pointed out, actually I feel bad about that. I have taken that on board...
Love,
Curly(SO)
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Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
Well girls, now you have done it!! I have to wait to go shopping becasue I want to say something here! I think it is something we all know - CJ and Darlene this type of exchange is what I think is so beneficial - just hope it does not happen too often. Those of us who are seriously seeking "enlightenment." and seeking to share our gift with others need to see as many sides of our world as we can - it only gives us much more insight into our "plight" if you will. Yes something that CJ says or Darlene or Sally - whoever may or may not work for us individually, but it is there for the taking if it does. Hopefully we can read and respond with intelligence to all this and it has been proven that we are more intelligent than the societial rabble that condems us. We must learn from eachother and that includes the SO's - their comments, feelings, positive or persumed negative are the manna that we who have SO' should seek to ingest. The "been there done that" aspect of SO's is our enlightenment.
Who do you think we seek to emulate???? The fact that they (in general) just do not understand our crossdressing) but yet are willing to try should be that blessing we have. Yes we have our own happiness that we are entitled to, but remember we are infringing on their life as well with this alien being that most if not all have had no background in dealing with. If they, the So's are willing to listen and share with us and that they struggle with it and seek to share their feelings with their sisters -yet on a public forum that allow us the opportunity to have insight into their feelings, is that not also a blessing? We are family and we can fuss and fight, but in the end we are here for eachother and we must not lose that love and support that we have for eachother. If someone is offended and chooses to leave - all I can say is its there problem, don' t guess there is much we can do about it.
NOW I AM GOING SHOPPING!
Love you all,
Virginia
Who do you think we seek to emulate???? The fact that they (in general) just do not understand our crossdressing) but yet are willing to try should be that blessing we have. Yes we have our own happiness that we are entitled to, but remember we are infringing on their life as well with this alien being that most if not all have had no background in dealing with. If they, the So's are willing to listen and share with us and that they struggle with it and seek to share their feelings with their sisters -yet on a public forum that allow us the opportunity to have insight into their feelings, is that not also a blessing? We are family and we can fuss and fight, but in the end we are here for eachother and we must not lose that love and support that we have for eachother. If someone is offended and chooses to leave - all I can say is its there problem, don' t guess there is much we can do about it.
NOW I AM GOING SHOPPING!
Love you all,
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Loretta Ann
- Permanently Banned
- Posts: 2199
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:30 pm
- Location: Vancouver, Canada
Kay,
There is only one person on this forum that stands out to me as having indicated that they see themselves as living their life in a toilet bowel.
After having tried (very early) to help that individual privately, It did not take me long to come to the conclusion that I don't have what it takes to help this person.
Somehow (it appears that) from my usage of the word flush we have arrived at the toilet bowel. Something I never intended to happen.
The toilet bowl is not the only place where one flushes. I simply used the term to describe getting rid of unwanted baggage.
I simply do not see much benefit resulting from the use of that term on this forum, and I do not see the need to use it here. I can easily see some lurkers looking at that and saying oh these people are looking for those whose lives are in the toilet bowl. I better not go there as I don't want them thinking I am in the toilet bowel. I see the use of that term as being the opposite of respect. Which one needs to feel from the person who is able to help them, in order to benefit.
Thank you for your contributions here Curly and Virginia, You have both written very good posts. I do not have a personal issue with anyone here, I just try and point to certain things (that I see) along the way.
I think that over all the forum will benefit from this exchange.
Love Darlene.
There is only one person on this forum that stands out to me as having indicated that they see themselves as living their life in a toilet bowel.
After having tried (very early) to help that individual privately, It did not take me long to come to the conclusion that I don't have what it takes to help this person.
Somehow (it appears that) from my usage of the word flush we have arrived at the toilet bowel. Something I never intended to happen.
The toilet bowl is not the only place where one flushes. I simply used the term to describe getting rid of unwanted baggage.
I simply do not see much benefit resulting from the use of that term on this forum, and I do not see the need to use it here. I can easily see some lurkers looking at that and saying oh these people are looking for those whose lives are in the toilet bowl. I better not go there as I don't want them thinking I am in the toilet bowel. I see the use of that term as being the opposite of respect. Which one needs to feel from the person who is able to help them, in order to benefit.
Thank you for your contributions here Curly and Virginia, You have both written very good posts. I do not have a personal issue with anyone here, I just try and point to certain things (that I see) along the way.
I think that over all the forum will benefit from this exchange.
Love Darlene.
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Missy
- Miss Silver Goddess
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:54 pm
- Location: US
Dear Kay(SO),
Thank you very much for my expected reply. If we keep this up, we'll probably end up being best buddies, which by the way would make me very happy.
First I will address the use of the word "should". What you're doing here, is applying your own negative meaning to a word which really only implies a suggestion as to what might make you feel better about a given situation. I certainly don't want to tell you how you should have felt, I only want to tell you how you should look at something if you want to feel better about it. Whether you make that transition or not is entirely up to you. I have many personal friends who come to me with problems. I give them suggested solutions. They don't implement them. They come back a month later, telling me that the problem still exists. They haven't tried what I suggested. I have wasted my breath because it is now clear to me that they didn't want to fix it -- they only wanted to complain about it. So my suggestion to you is, if you truly mean what you say about wanting to adjust, then maybe you should not be so quick to take words out of context and apply your own meaning to them, thereby only ruining your day. Possibly either you or I should substitute the word "suggest" for “should”. If that would make you feel better, I'll try to do it. I believe other words have also been misinterpreted on this forum, as detailed above. It's never wise to remove things from context and it is counterproductive.
You said you're worried that other SOs won't post due to this thread. I believe the real reason that more SOs don't post is because of the negative atmosphere in the SO section. It appears that Curly(SO) (now officially a member of the Solid Gold Club along with Jassmine(SO)), in her post just above, has supported me on this point. She said she doesn't feel qualified to offer support to someone who is expressing a problem, but I believe that she is one who is more qualified than most because of her acceptance. She's probably a person with a positive outlook on life, and has a difficult time figuring out how to help negative people.
You mentioned above that the accepting SO should offer support. I said that no one is going to continue to offer anything if they don't get some feedback. If a negative SO really wants help, I suggest they seek out a positive SO to discuss things with, in addition to doing the venting that they feel necessary. If you have come here in search of information to make your situation better, it seems to me that your situation will not improve until you have understood what others mean when they say you should feel a certain way and why you should feel that way. In one of CJ's posts he listed 34 SOs. I believe there are only a few who are posting, and they are mostly negative. Does it occur to you that the rest of them aren't posting because they don't need the negativity introduced into their situation? Remember that whining breeds more whining but optimism breeds more optimism.
I believe, based on reviewing some of your earlier posts, that you could well be a member of the Solid Gold Club (Thank you Virginia). It just doesn't look that way if you complain a majority of the time. Have things changed in your life to make you less accepting? If so, let’s talk about it.
In regard to my need for support, just for the record, I really don't need much. I'm perfectly happy with who I am and what I am. I am here because I enjoy exchanging ideas with others who have similar interests. I will have to admit, however, that once in a while when I look at myself in the mirror, I do have to say, "What the hell am I doing?” But then I just smile, because Mrs. Missy and I have decided that it's really no big deal, and we truly want to help others such as yourself, even though you may not want it. It's just a defect that we have.
You said no one has a right to tell you how you should feel. I feel that I have a right, after you have told me that you feel bad, to tell you how you should feel and why you should feel that way, if I think it will make you feel better. It's that defect again and it’s my way of trying to help. If you don’t want to take the advice, that is up to you. I don't want you to control your feelings when posting, but don't you think it would be a good idea if you just asked accepting SOs how to make it better in addition to venting?
Your suggestion in your last post that my wife let others know how she got to where she is seems to me that you have not comprehended that problem. It's not the negativity, it's the lack of feedback. If she is invited to give her input, I'm sure she would be happy to do so. However, based on history, I think that's not likely to happen until more of the positive SO’s return. She can't even get a mature reply to her direct messages to the administrator and moderator.
Hugs (and this time kisses too!),
Missy
Thank you very much for my expected reply. If we keep this up, we'll probably end up being best buddies, which by the way would make me very happy.
First I will address the use of the word "should". What you're doing here, is applying your own negative meaning to a word which really only implies a suggestion as to what might make you feel better about a given situation. I certainly don't want to tell you how you should have felt, I only want to tell you how you should look at something if you want to feel better about it. Whether you make that transition or not is entirely up to you. I have many personal friends who come to me with problems. I give them suggested solutions. They don't implement them. They come back a month later, telling me that the problem still exists. They haven't tried what I suggested. I have wasted my breath because it is now clear to me that they didn't want to fix it -- they only wanted to complain about it. So my suggestion to you is, if you truly mean what you say about wanting to adjust, then maybe you should not be so quick to take words out of context and apply your own meaning to them, thereby only ruining your day. Possibly either you or I should substitute the word "suggest" for “should”. If that would make you feel better, I'll try to do it. I believe other words have also been misinterpreted on this forum, as detailed above. It's never wise to remove things from context and it is counterproductive.
You said you're worried that other SOs won't post due to this thread. I believe the real reason that more SOs don't post is because of the negative atmosphere in the SO section. It appears that Curly(SO) (now officially a member of the Solid Gold Club along with Jassmine(SO)), in her post just above, has supported me on this point. She said she doesn't feel qualified to offer support to someone who is expressing a problem, but I believe that she is one who is more qualified than most because of her acceptance. She's probably a person with a positive outlook on life, and has a difficult time figuring out how to help negative people.
You mentioned above that the accepting SO should offer support. I said that no one is going to continue to offer anything if they don't get some feedback. If a negative SO really wants help, I suggest they seek out a positive SO to discuss things with, in addition to doing the venting that they feel necessary. If you have come here in search of information to make your situation better, it seems to me that your situation will not improve until you have understood what others mean when they say you should feel a certain way and why you should feel that way. In one of CJ's posts he listed 34 SOs. I believe there are only a few who are posting, and they are mostly negative. Does it occur to you that the rest of them aren't posting because they don't need the negativity introduced into their situation? Remember that whining breeds more whining but optimism breeds more optimism.
I believe, based on reviewing some of your earlier posts, that you could well be a member of the Solid Gold Club (Thank you Virginia). It just doesn't look that way if you complain a majority of the time. Have things changed in your life to make you less accepting? If so, let’s talk about it.
In regard to my need for support, just for the record, I really don't need much. I'm perfectly happy with who I am and what I am. I am here because I enjoy exchanging ideas with others who have similar interests. I will have to admit, however, that once in a while when I look at myself in the mirror, I do have to say, "What the hell am I doing?” But then I just smile, because Mrs. Missy and I have decided that it's really no big deal, and we truly want to help others such as yourself, even though you may not want it. It's just a defect that we have.
You said no one has a right to tell you how you should feel. I feel that I have a right, after you have told me that you feel bad, to tell you how you should feel and why you should feel that way, if I think it will make you feel better. It's that defect again and it’s my way of trying to help. If you don’t want to take the advice, that is up to you. I don't want you to control your feelings when posting, but don't you think it would be a good idea if you just asked accepting SOs how to make it better in addition to venting?
Your suggestion in your last post that my wife let others know how she got to where she is seems to me that you have not comprehended that problem. It's not the negativity, it's the lack of feedback. If she is invited to give her input, I'm sure she would be happy to do so. However, based on history, I think that's not likely to happen until more of the positive SO’s return. She can't even get a mature reply to her direct messages to the administrator and moderator.
Hugs (and this time kisses too!),
Missy
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Well, this thread is certainly taking interesting turns and twists.
Just a friendly reminder to all concerned: if possible, address the issues at hand rather than engaging in personal attacks on a member's character or personality. It may, for example, be judicious to weigh our words before calling someone a "negative person" rather than "a person who expresses a negative emotion." There's a world of difference... and the distinction matters.
Thanks,
CJ
Well, this thread is certainly taking interesting turns and twists.
Just a friendly reminder to all concerned: if possible, address the issues at hand rather than engaging in personal attacks on a member's character or personality. It may, for example, be judicious to weigh our words before calling someone a "negative person" rather than "a person who expresses a negative emotion." There's a world of difference... and the distinction matters.
Thanks,
CJ
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Curly(SO)
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 879
- Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:08 am
- Location: UK
I feel like I want to defend my good friend Kay here...she IS a solid gold SO to her partner, she loves him to bits and is a warm, intelligent lady! I have known Kay a long time through this forum and know what wonderful support she has given to her partner, something some of you may not be aware of. I don't offer her advice on how to be more accepting, firstly, because I believe people are fully entitled to their feelings, and secondly, my situation is a lot different to hers. It is easy for me to be accepting and have no trouble dealing with my partner's CDing, he never goes out in public dressed. Kay's partner does, and Kay has accompanied him on weekend trips out, fully enfemme, something I greatly admire her for.
I'm not saying I couldn't accept my husband going public, but it would stir up negative feelings in me, and I would get comfort from another SO saying to me, 'me too, I have those feelings in that situation'. It would give me the strength to try and overcome the bad feelings. It sounds negative, I know, but only by expressing these feelings, can we explore them and hopefully grow. I don't believe we should suppress them, those feelings won't go away by not talking about them.
The negative posts, in my opinion, are very legitimate, and helpful, we need to hear a full range of peoples feelings. I think, maybe I worded my previous post badly, What I meant by saying I feel bad about the negative posts is not that they shouldn't be there, but I'm sorry that people are hurt by hearing negative things.
'For some of us, the way we are able to express ourselves so freely aides in that process of going from hating it to finally being able to realize that it's insignificant when we look at the bigger picture of the man we married.' (This is a qoute from Kay, but my quoting isn't working
) As Kay says, we post our negative feelings as part of a process to grow, not to offend, or cast judgement.
Sometimes we word things wrong, sometimes, when we are upset, we may over-emphasise something, that turns out not to be such a problem after all, once we've calmed down. You know what I'm saying here!
I would like to get some positive vibes going on the SO forum, (And the rest of the forum!) I'm working on a post in my head at the moment, because, as I said previously, I have taken on board the negative stuff is creating a bit of a negative atmosphere, lets try to change that round!
Love,
Curly(SO)
I'm not saying I couldn't accept my husband going public, but it would stir up negative feelings in me, and I would get comfort from another SO saying to me, 'me too, I have those feelings in that situation'. It would give me the strength to try and overcome the bad feelings. It sounds negative, I know, but only by expressing these feelings, can we explore them and hopefully grow. I don't believe we should suppress them, those feelings won't go away by not talking about them.
The negative posts, in my opinion, are very legitimate, and helpful, we need to hear a full range of peoples feelings. I think, maybe I worded my previous post badly, What I meant by saying I feel bad about the negative posts is not that they shouldn't be there, but I'm sorry that people are hurt by hearing negative things.
'For some of us, the way we are able to express ourselves so freely aides in that process of going from hating it to finally being able to realize that it's insignificant when we look at the bigger picture of the man we married.' (This is a qoute from Kay, but my quoting isn't working
) As Kay says, we post our negative feelings as part of a process to grow, not to offend, or cast judgement.Sometimes we word things wrong, sometimes, when we are upset, we may over-emphasise something, that turns out not to be such a problem after all, once we've calmed down. You know what I'm saying here!
I would like to get some positive vibes going on the SO forum, (And the rest of the forum!) I'm working on a post in my head at the moment, because, as I said previously, I have taken on board the negative stuff is creating a bit of a negative atmosphere, lets try to change that round!
Love,
Curly(SO)
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Jassmine(SO)
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 626
- Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:13 am
- Location: Irving
Howdy Y'all 
Missy Wrote:
And that silly ant who moved that rubber tree plant Positive thoughts=positive attitude=positive action. I was told by a friend of mind that once you use the word can't you have built a wall, that then must be torn down in order to resolve the problem. I have indeed taken that advice to heart My life has been better for it. I can do anything I set my mind to!
If you are jealous, try to figure out what is causing the insecurity that is leading to that feeling of jealousy. Or if you fear not being accepted by "society", write down why and the worst possible thing that could happen, how you will feel about it, what you can do about those feelings. Then write down some of the postive things about it. *Nod* nothing is all positive or all negative. There is always some failures on the road to success and there is always some success in one's failures And a failure shouldn't be viewed as a complete negative, because we learn more from our failures than we do from our successes.
Just some random rambling 
*Hugs & Love* 
Missy Wrote:
Oh boy, Ahzz and I can relate to that. It gets very frustrating. On the bright side, we do have friends who take to heart what advice we give them, and they end up much happier in the long run. The difference between these folks is that the ones who try some of the solutions offered are very postive people. If one truly wishes to resolve a problem, one really needs a positive attitude. "The little Engine That Could" springs to mindI have many personal friends who come to me with problems. I give them suggested solutions. They don't implement them. They come back a month later, telling me that the problem still exists. They haven't tried what I suggested. I have wasted my breath because it is now clear to me that they didn't want to fix it -- they only wanted to complain about it.
And that silly ant who moved that rubber tree plant Positive thoughts=positive attitude=positive action. I was told by a friend of mind that once you use the word can't you have built a wall, that then must be torn down in order to resolve the problem. I have indeed taken that advice to heart My life has been better for it. I can do anything I set my mind to!
*Nod* that is why I very rarely post there. I really dislike negativity. I tend to avoid Mordor on occasion for the same reason. I would like to suggest "positve venting", ie; "I feel so frustrated, because....any help would be greatly appreciated" or " I feel so angry because....but now that I have released some of that anger, I will have a good talk with my SO" Ah, and it has been brought up that writing is a good way to get your feelings out, I concur. So why not try to examine the issue while writing. "I feel very hurt because...." "why"? Take the time to look at the problem, write down everything you feel is the cause. I do mean everythingYou said you're worried that other SOs won't post due to this thread. I believe the real reason that more SOs don't post is because of the negative atmosphere in the SO section.
If you are jealous, try to figure out what is causing the insecurity that is leading to that feeling of jealousy. Or if you fear not being accepted by "society", write down why and the worst possible thing that could happen, how you will feel about it, what you can do about those feelings. Then write down some of the postive things about it. *Nod* nothing is all positive or all negative. There is always some failures on the road to success and there is always some success in one's failures And a failure shouldn't be viewed as a complete negative, because we learn more from our failures than we do from our successes. Just some random rambling
*Hugs & Love*
Blessings Eternal, Jassmine
"Love is unconditional acceptance. That quality is also our essential nature, who we really are."
--Peter Shepherd
"Love is unconditional acceptance. That quality is also our essential nature, who we really are."
--Peter Shepherd
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Shannon
- Founding Member
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:42 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
Boy.... what did I start??? Everytime I make a post that is past just "Welcome to the forum.....".... it seems to turn into a big thing....
Big thing..... Good or Bad.... I can't really tell.....
I stated above what my intention with my initial posts were and were not. And that appears to have blown off into several different streams of thought.
To give you a little insight into where I and my wife stand with the initial concerns I posted....
I have waited and waited for any acknowledgement from her that she had even read the posts.... she saw me typing the initial post and knew I had a problem with something she said.... I asked her not to stand over my shoulder reading it as I typed it.....
So after 6 days of waiting for comments from her or even acknowledgement of reading it.... I had to ask her if she read it and if so how she felt about it..... She eventually said she read it and didn't say anything cause she didn't want to argue
It ended up in an arguement, as usually happens.... the arguement was pretty equal in fault with both of us, I think....
She basically never responded to the problems I had mentioned in the initial post, other that partially retracting the "grin and bear it" comment.....
Basically it resulted in her saying, as she had said many times before... "I just won't make any posts, because I don't want to argue...."
I keep trying to stress to her that I want her to post freely and openly, but when she states things that are incorrect or mean I often get offended and will lash out.... I don't think that is unreasonable.
I just wish so much that I could have decent communication with my wife, since she states she is so "big" on communication and always expounds on it's value..... I just can't figure why she will not practice it with me....
To everybody.... and all the other issues raised in this thread..... Not my intention, not my desire....
Big thing..... Good or Bad.... I can't really tell.....
I stated above what my intention with my initial posts were and were not. And that appears to have blown off into several different streams of thought.
To give you a little insight into where I and my wife stand with the initial concerns I posted....
I have waited and waited for any acknowledgement from her that she had even read the posts.... she saw me typing the initial post and knew I had a problem with something she said.... I asked her not to stand over my shoulder reading it as I typed it.....
So after 6 days of waiting for comments from her or even acknowledgement of reading it.... I had to ask her if she read it and if so how she felt about it..... She eventually said she read it and didn't say anything cause she didn't want to argue
It ended up in an arguement, as usually happens.... the arguement was pretty equal in fault with both of us, I think....
She basically never responded to the problems I had mentioned in the initial post, other that partially retracting the "grin and bear it" comment.....
Basically it resulted in her saying, as she had said many times before... "I just won't make any posts, because I don't want to argue...."
I keep trying to stress to her that I want her to post freely and openly, but when she states things that are incorrect or mean I often get offended and will lash out.... I don't think that is unreasonable.
I just wish so much that I could have decent communication with my wife, since she states she is so "big" on communication and always expounds on it's value..... I just can't figure why she will not practice it with me....
To everybody.... and all the other issues raised in this thread..... Not my intention, not my desire....
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Kyra
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:04 pm
- Location: Fort Fun, CO
- Contact:
Hi Shannon,
I was just wondering the same thing about this thread. It seems to have taken on a personality of its own. Not really a bad thing, but not relative to your original post.
In any case, I wanted to express how glad I am that you shared this with us. That being said, may I ask a question?
You said that you talked to Sharon, (which is great, BTW) and it ended up in argument. My question is, was the arguement heated with raised voices and things flying? Or was it more a moderately tempered disagreement. I ask this because I have found the former to be pointless and non-conducive to a good marital relationship. I understand how anger and pain can be difficult to control, but they usually do more harm than good. That's why Amber and I have more disagreements than arguments. I consider the difference to be the volume level. When we talk plainly we get more resolved than when we yell.
If I'm totally out in left field here, I apologize. My intent is to share with you how I deal with issues. Calm discussion works for me. Another avenue i've used is to write down what is bothering me on paper. Then I reread my letter, (usually this calms me down a bit) and I find a way to talk it out more calmly.
Whew, I guess I'm starting to ramble on.
For what it's worth, my heart goes out to You and Sharon. I wish you the best.
Hugs,
Kyra
I was just wondering the same thing about this thread. It seems to have taken on a personality of its own. Not really a bad thing, but not relative to your original post.
In any case, I wanted to express how glad I am that you shared this with us. That being said, may I ask a question?
You said that you talked to Sharon, (which is great, BTW) and it ended up in argument. My question is, was the arguement heated with raised voices and things flying? Or was it more a moderately tempered disagreement. I ask this because I have found the former to be pointless and non-conducive to a good marital relationship. I understand how anger and pain can be difficult to control, but they usually do more harm than good. That's why Amber and I have more disagreements than arguments. I consider the difference to be the volume level. When we talk plainly we get more resolved than when we yell.
If I'm totally out in left field here, I apologize. My intent is to share with you how I deal with issues. Calm discussion works for me. Another avenue i've used is to write down what is bothering me on paper. Then I reread my letter, (usually this calms me down a bit) and I find a way to talk it out more calmly.
Whew, I guess I'm starting to ramble on.
For what it's worth, my heart goes out to You and Sharon. I wish you the best.
Hugs,
Kyra
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return. - Leonardo DaVinci
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Charlotte
- Miss Silver Goddess
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:49 am
- Location: Ontario, Canada
First off, I want to say I am so grateful to Sharon and Shannon for starting this forum. I find it very comforting and informative and it has helped me understand much about the condition that draws us all together.
Therefore I want to relate how I feel about this issue. In most things I am a pretty self assured individual. I have good self esteem and feel confident in things I do and have accomplished and while I may not like criticism, I believe I can handle it without it bothering me that much.
Now with my CDing the exact opposite is true. I have very low esteem and self assurance (although it is getting better). When I came out to my wife a few months ago I was absolutely terrified. I felt, rightly or wrongly that my SO held the fate of my life in the palm of her hand. If she had reacted negatively or with scorn I believe I would have been devastated. Looking back at that time I know I was vulnerable and my ego so fragile that I needed words of encouragement and understanding which I was fortunate to receive. Today, if my wife makes comments in a jokingly manner about how I look, I join in the laughter. However, if she was to make a thoughtless comment (she never has) about how hard she finds it to tolerate my activity, I know I would be terribly hurt and deeply wounded. However, if she was to make the same comment about any other part of my life I know it wouldn't bother me as much.
It may be my femmine side but I sympathize with how some SO's can feel. I simply asked myself how would I feel if my wife out of the blue stated she felt she was a male person. I doubt I would be able to handle the matter as well as my wife has. I guess what I'm trying to say is that feelings on both sides of this matter I expect are very sensitive. That certainly is the case with me and I wanted to relate that to the forum.
Therefore I want to relate how I feel about this issue. In most things I am a pretty self assured individual. I have good self esteem and feel confident in things I do and have accomplished and while I may not like criticism, I believe I can handle it without it bothering me that much.
Now with my CDing the exact opposite is true. I have very low esteem and self assurance (although it is getting better). When I came out to my wife a few months ago I was absolutely terrified. I felt, rightly or wrongly that my SO held the fate of my life in the palm of her hand. If she had reacted negatively or with scorn I believe I would have been devastated. Looking back at that time I know I was vulnerable and my ego so fragile that I needed words of encouragement and understanding which I was fortunate to receive. Today, if my wife makes comments in a jokingly manner about how I look, I join in the laughter. However, if she was to make a thoughtless comment (she never has) about how hard she finds it to tolerate my activity, I know I would be terribly hurt and deeply wounded. However, if she was to make the same comment about any other part of my life I know it wouldn't bother me as much.
It may be my femmine side but I sympathize with how some SO's can feel. I simply asked myself how would I feel if my wife out of the blue stated she felt she was a male person. I doubt I would be able to handle the matter as well as my wife has. I guess what I'm trying to say is that feelings on both sides of this matter I expect are very sensitive. That certainly is the case with me and I wanted to relate that to the forum.
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Gelinda
- Miss Platinum Goddess
- Posts: 441
- Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 8:31 pm
Well: I have learned one thing from this topic from Shannon an Sharon. I am glad my wife has not made much time to look at this forum. I use to push her on the phone and when home an alone to read and be active in this forum. My main reason was so she could understand that there were a lot of CD's and SO's out there so she would not feel alone as I have for years. But now if it is going to start fights then I am glad she has not been on the forum that I know of.
Gelinda.
Gelinda.
* * Email address not current as of 05-05-2009. Please contact SilverLady(SO) immediately! See http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/v ... php?t=9237 for further information. Thank You!! * *