Our Soup Kitchen

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:15 am

Hi girls,

I was talking to one of my sisters from the forum tonight and I was talking about how I felt when I came here. And the idea popped into my mind that this forum is very much like a soup kitchen. We take in those from all walks of life who have had society turn thier backs on them.

I remember coming here and that is how it felt to me. No one asked how I got here. No one blamed me. No one called me immoral. In fact no judgements were made of me at all. Instead I was given the warm blanket of love, and I was given the hot soup of understanding and I was told that I was safe here.

And when I seen all the others in the crossdressing soup line I no longer felt alone. I no longer felt ashamed. And for the first time in my life, I felt I was with people who really understood me.

Elizabeth wrote on May 4, 2004 So Scared :

First I would just like to tell everyone how wonderful you have been to me. this is the first time in a very long time, if ever, that I have truely felt aaccepted. I have known about this place for a long time, but have been in denial about my true nature. I have been pretending for the last 10 years that I just prefered women's underwear, that i really am not a crossdresser. But the real truth is I am a crossdresser.

Full post at
http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/v ... ght=#18689

That was the first time I ever referred to myself as a crossdresser. And it was only days after arriving here. It was the magic of this place that made that happen. The crossdressers soup kitchen. No judgements, no critisism, lots of love. Lots of advice. Lots of information.

And now here we are. And I sense trouble in the Kitchen. It started with the pre election rhetoric, advanced to Mordor, and now just out in the open. Now it's just a slugfest. I see a lot of people attacking others. I have seen "whatever" in response to posts. I have seen condescending attitudes. I have seen the Founder of this very soup kitchen come out swinging. And today I was utterly shocked to see someone critisizing others because they did not approve of what was being posted in "Creativity Corner."

Good Grief!!!!!! Attacking people in Creativity Corner? For not being original enough? That is what we have been reduced to? Where are the moderators? It's time to start deleting anything that is not nice. One of the rules of this Forum is that you have to be nice.

It is out of hand. It's time to take back this soup kitchen. It's not a poltical forum. It is not a place to solve world problems of crossdressers. It is time to say that the primary purpose of this forum is to give support (Soup) It is time to kick out anyone who is not nice. Including the Founder if need be. The forum is not a web address, it's a place of love. And I can tell you right now, if we don't take it back, right now. This forum will not survive.

No more favortism, no more tolerance for those who are not nice. Any post that is not nice needs to be deleted. It's poisen contamnating the soup. I am tired of seeing people hurt here. One after another. Time to say that this place is indeed a Soup Kitchen or say it is not. Because I want to be in a soup kitchen. I want to give the gift that was given to me, to others. And I want to know if this is going to be that place anymore.

I WANT THE TROLLS OUT!!!!!! Take your politics, Take you views, Take your Rhetoric and take it to someplace that will tolerate it. I will no more.

If the moderators will not, I will call out those I think are not being nice, and I will do it until someone gets banned, me or them. I love this place, and I will fight for it. No more attacking people anywhere, in any group. I am offended by this. It's disgusting, and it should not be tolerated.

No one person is bigger than what this forum has meant to so many of us. Time to give back. There are still millions of frightened crossdressers out there that need the (soup) that really no other forum Provides. And if the focus of this forum is going to change from one of support, to one of degrading others for feeling bad, or flaming those who don't share our views. If the debate is going to change from how do we help those who feel helpless, to how do we make everyone see we are right, I am not interested in partcipating. That is not what saved my life.

Time to stand up and be counted.

Is this forum a Soup Kitchen?????

Love always,
Elizabeth

CJ · Post by CJ » Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:13 am

Hey Elizabeth, I'm having my fill. Hand me a ladle, will you?

Love,
CJ

Virginia · Post by **Virginia** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:12 am

Well I have read your post, Elizabeth. I can say that I have been taken "to the wood shed" on a couple of occassions by more that a couple of SO's. I must admit it was well deserved. One one occasion I was "called to task," by a moderator for what I posted that I meant to be a compliment of one of my sisters but was misinterpreted and I apologized profusely to both parties. Voice inflection and emotions are difficult if not impossible for a lot of us to express by the written word. Several of our sisters here are very adept at it, but I do not count myself as one of those gifted individuals.
After rereading your post I don't think that these are areas that you are having a concern with. You do realize as well as I that when you have this many people posting on such a variety of topice there are bound to be differences of opinion. I don' think the admins or mods have the time, ability or wherewithall to control the entire forum and a few maybe more what I use to call "Troll Droppings" do find there way onto the forum. I do wonder however if they are actuall Trolls or just very strong differences of opionion??? I will grant you that we do need to be considerate of our sisters feeling and perhaps follow more closely the guide that I thing "CJ" put out about not attacking our sisters directly but just say that we perhaps have a different perspective on the topic.
I probably should not recommend this but it happens and I have seen it done. If you enjoy "hunting Trolls" I would recommend travelling to one of the "other sites;" play a game that I call "bait the troll" then when he takes the bait - cut him off at the knees - so to speak! However, this is not the forum for that game as the baitor in this case may become the victim. The girls here do not as one of our sisters posted "suffer fools gladly!"
I hope this makes sense, I too love this forum and the girls here! I have probably gotten much more than I have been able to give back and for that I am and will be forever grateful!
I Love you all!!!
Virginia

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:35 pm

Hi all,

Well folks having learned the hard way the cost of avoiding these kind of issues, I will add my part to this.

I am the Sister to who Elizabeth referred to in her post, as having the conversation with. She helped to open my eyes to a few things that I did not see here. She has an amazing insight into the situation here, (much more than I had) and I am honored to have a friend such as her.

First as a result of our conversation I want to publicly state that I have gained a new appreciation for CJ and what she is trying to do here, and I hope I can work together with her a little more closely, than I have been able to in the past. Although we do have our differences, you can hand me a ladle, on this one too CJ.

As a result of the recent activity here I have began to look around for other sites, and I have discovered some where some of our sisters (who have left) are at, that are indeed more like the soup kitchen Elizabeth is talking about. where those with negative attitudes such as Elizabeth has referred to are simply not allowed.

The reason I have began to do this is due to the fact that I don't think this forum will be able to recover, and regain what it once had. And in the event that I am right I want to be prepared.

I have discovered there are sites out there where they provide more than lip service to the forum rules. And in my opinion unless those who are at the controls here are prepared to do something about this, the future of this site, has it's destiny written on the wall, for those who are able to see it.

I am in full support of what Elizabeth is attempting to accomplish here I fully understand that I will also be attacked, and by whom. I welcome it. I also am counting on it. Put it on me also. I will share this with her.

Love Darlene.

Jamie Ann · Post by **Jamie Ann** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:02 pm

Darlene wrote:I am the Sister to who Elizabeth referred to in her post, as having the conversation with. She helped to open my eyes to a few things that I did not see here. She has an amazing insight into the situation here….

Let’s be more candid. You were a central player in the “Land of Mordor” controversy a while back. You eagerly joined in discussions pertaining to civil rights and crossdressing, strategies for increasing public acceptance of crossdressing, homophobia and discrimination against crossdressers, and so forth, typically adopting a stance that others (not just me) saw as rather hostile. At one point, you expressed your pleasure in passing “left-wing comments” on to some of your Internet associates (who presumably are not friends of the TG community). When I mentioned this, you edited the post in question and then called me a liar, which was my first inkling that you were not on the level. After all, you could have said, “I did not really mean that. It came out wrong.”

I have been uneasy about your motivations for a while now. Your high level of board activity making posts that do not require a significant amount of thought, time, or energy adds to my questions.

Alexandra · Post by **Alexandra** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:27 pm

elizabeth, how do you suppose we identify "trolls"? Some are easy to spot, others are clever enough to hide in plain sight taking great care with their posts.

Then there are those that like to complain about other people's "negative attitudes" -- meaning they don't agree with them, so they're "negative people" needing ouster from the forum. Is this what we want to do?

I haven't clicked on the creativity forum in a long time so I don't know whats happening there except to know I'll not comment further.

Terri(SO) · Post by **Terri(SO)** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:07 pm

Hey Elizabeth,
I really liked your original post. It was thoughtful and very sweet.
When I first read it I was thinking of a hot topic where you and I got to know each other a little. And the times I drifted over to the dark side (Mordor), it was interesting and challenging for a while but rather quickly got tiresome. Posting in the rest of the forum has become like walking through a mine field, so I have only been lurking for a while.
Even this well-intentioned thread has become ugly bickering.
But I thank you for the attempt at peacemaking.

Alexandra · Post by **Alexandra** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:14 pm

Elizabeth wrote: It is really obvious that there are certain people here who seem to have negative things to say all the time, and in the harshest of ways. That is what I object to.

On the other hand, when it comes to certain items that interest me, like politics and civil rights, I have "negative" things to say all the time. For instance, I can't think of one single positive thing to say about plight of TGrs with respect to civil rights in the last 5 years. Would people prefer I lie and become agreeable?

Likewise with the troll thing. What are the criteria for a troll? I have my own opinion about what a troll could be -- one is the kind that makes no negative comments but uses psuedo-facts to recruit girls for a one-way trip into the dark ages. Shall we ban these too?

The fact is for better or worse, the dynamics that exist here are why this forum provide for both the "great" experiences and not-so-great experiences for the girls here. The "great" memories you have of this place Elizabeth might not have occured if some of your suggestions were enacted long before you came here see?

Nothing personal Elizabeth.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:18 pm

Alexandra,

As you may have noticed by the lack of enthusiasm in Mordor, it is not that interesting to anyone else. Take it to a political forum. This forum is about healing. No one really cares about it. And for sure everyone is tired of the bashing. Not to mention, I have not seen one persons mind changed. I know you are willing to let countless others leave in fear so a few people can continue the senseless arguing that only causes hard feelings, I am not.

I am against it. I want it gone. I want the back biting gone. I want the insults gone. I want people to be nice. I want the soup kitchen back. I want to give to others what I got.

We have already lost several of our valuable members, and more are going to leave if something doesn't change. I am fighting to change it. Anyone who is fighting to keep in place a system of insults, bashing, backbiting, need to be right, and just plain meaness, is fighting me. Because I want it stopped, and i promise you if I were a moderator, I would make this place a safe place for crossdrssers and SO's again, to speak thier mind and get the support they need without fear of being attacked.

We have no moderation, as this thread demonstrates. We get locked threads, but that is about it. It's time to delete mean spirited posts. And if someone does it three times, ban them for life. That is how you get rid of trolls. Unflexable, enforced rules. Other forums don't tolerate this. No wonder we are losing all our members.

I am not quitting this fight. I am in it until something changes, or I get banned. This thread is proof enough of all the things wrong with this forum. Just as I knew it would be. It's predictable. It was predicted. Nothing left but to ride out the storm.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Jamie Ann · Post by **Jamie Ann** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:35 am

Elizabeth wrote:As you may have noticed by the lack of enthusiasm in Mordor, it is not that interesting to anyone else. Take it to a political forum. This forum is about healing. No one really cares about it. And for sure everyone is tired of the bashing. Not to mention, I have not seen one persons mind changed. I know you are willing to let countless others leave in fear so a few people can continue the senseless arguing that only causes hard feelings, I am not.

At any TG conference or gathering, there are discussions of legal and political issues pertaining to the TG communities. Moreover, candidates for political office in recent times often gain their margins of victory by bashing those who seek security and rights. By what criterion you can say TG issues are unimportant or uninteresting escapes me. People at a certain stage want soup and sympathy; people who are beyond that stage want respect and equal rights. Insofar as political and religious groups have ideologies that affect us, it seems likely that they will remain of some interest to us. How could it be otherwise?

What is your problem? No one had criticized you prior to your coming out of the woodwork with your diatribe. You initiated the attacks. The person with whom you align yourself, Darlene, is the most divisive person on this forum, as well as one who seems to have a hidden agenda somewhat unfavorable to crossdressers. Just out of curiosity, where are you coming from? Other than “soup,” what is your interest? If you went to a conference such as SCC, what sessions would you attend?

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:55 am

Hi girls,

I think that anyone can select "profile" for anyone on this thread, then select "find all post by". That really tells the whole story.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:18 am

Hi Elizabeth--
I can understand the feelings behind your post here. You may feel sad about losing a sense of support here. I can't say that I would endorse your program the way you have outlined it, though.

I voted for keeping Mordor, and my vote hasn't changed on that. I don't feel that Mordor is somehow contaminating the rest of the forum. It remains a separate entity, and no one has to see it if they don't want to.

I have limited experience with CD forums. The one other one that is closest to this one, in tone and degree of moderation, does not eliminate mean-spirited posts. Sometimes I wish they would, even more so than here. But I would not want to put the moderators in that position--that's more power than I want to see applied, and it's also a hard judgment call to make. I would like to see more warnings here--that is something I do see on other forums. But it's important that everyone see the post that gets the warning--that's how we see what works and what doesn't.

I will concede that you say that you have seen working models of this, and I have not.

I don't know why we are not policing ourselves better, frankly. For the most part, all of these disputes are between those of us who have been here for awhile. It's not like a new breed has come in and taken over the forum. So the different posting in the not-so-distant past had much the same cast as is here right now.

Maybe it's like any long-term relationship. Most of us have been in at least one, and we know that it's not all tenderness and support. With intimacy comes some risk, hurt, and growing pains. It doesn't mean that all love is gone, though. The forum is changing, but I don't see it as changing for the worse, necessarily.

Alexandra · Post by **Alexandra** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:33 am

Elizabeth, nothing personal okay?

Elizabeth wrote:As you may have noticed by the lack of enthusiasm in Mordor,

I don't know about that. The Mordor forum threads sure gets a lot of "views".

it is not that interesting to anyone else.

It isn't? That sure contradicts the number of visitors to the Mordor thread, not to mention the TWO votes to keep Mordor alive.

Take it to a political forum. This forum is about healing.

This forum is just a "healing forum"? Thats news to me. I thought this forum covers everything TG/CD related. Has there been a change?

No one really cares about it.

Again, the number of views and the results of TWO polls contradicts this staement.

We have already lost several of our valuable members

We've been "losing members" long before the election and mordor. Sharon has regularly purged member rolls of inactive members. This sort of thing happens everywhere and this forum is no exception.

We have no moderation,

on the contrary, this is one of the more moderated forums that I belong to. If you don't believe me go visit eBay's eBay motors forum and get heckled by the top posters for posting a "rookie" question.

No wonder we are losing all our members.

I don't think so -- we have a net gain. Look at the number of girls that keep signing up. we must be doing something right. The "losing members" concern way be indeed typical of all "open to the public" forums.

Everybody has their own thoughts on how-to-moderate forums. There are rules listed here. If one makes a post and it doesn't violate the previously listed rules, the post should stay.

Now that we've all spoken, lets take a deep breath!

Alexandra · Post by **Alexandra** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:45 am

Darlene wrote: There is no record of an edit in that post.

I don't want to dwell on this, but your comments has to be rebutted.

Is it true that one can make a post only later to click on the "x" to delete it and replace it with a newer post with a few changes to the previous one without it indicating an "edit"? yes/no?

Is it possible that readers will see the original post before it gets deleted? yes/no?

Have you ever edited a post of your own shortly after posting it and not seen an "edit record" entered on the updated post? yes/no

If you answered yes to all three questions then you'll have to agree that the absence of an "edit record" is not proof.

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:18 am

Well Folks.

Me thinks the bubble has burst.

Me thinks this forum is now dead, or allfully close to it.

Have a nice Day?