Admiration and Flattery

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Kay(SO)
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Admiration and Flattery

Post by Kay(SO) »

Hello Ladies,

I have been thinking again, dangerous I know :lol: and I wanted to pose a question about something that I keep reading in a mixed group I belong to. The phrases I see over and over are about how CD'rs admire women and want to emulate them and how flattered we should be or find this.

I just want to hear any comments about this type of thing. I for one don't necessarily find it "flattering". I'm not quite able to identify what it is I'm feeling. I hate when this happens. I always feel weird when I hear or read this and I'm scratching my head wondering why it bugs me. It doesn't make me mad just leaves me going "huh?" :? I thought that maybe if I got some input into this from other's it would help me figure out what's going on with me. I think part of it might be the timing in when this has been used or said to me. It has sounded like the biggest crock, not sincere. But that's not it. Not what is really bugging me about it. There has got to be something more or something that I'm not getting or thinking of... Help! I have OCD and if I don't get answers I'll tend to obsess about it! :roll: If you are one who has said this, then maybe if you go into further detail about it, it will help me try to understand. And as most of you know, I'm always trying to understand not only others but myself as well... :)

Kay(SO)
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Post by Loretta Ann »

Hi Kay,

While I have not said that here and won't say that any where any more. I once thought like that.

And I can only speak for myself here. I honestly don't see why I was unable to see it the way I see it now. I once wished (with every thing that was in me) that I were a women. It seems kind of crazy because (at the same time) I wanted a woman to treat me like a man would treat a women sexually, but I wanted to remain a man in women's clothes, acting (or perhaps you could say emulate) like a woman.

I am using the word emulate to mean imitate. And the drive to do that was just there I can not tell you why or how it got there it was just there.

Today I got home a short while ago put on my bra, panties, and the shortest little black dress that I own, and I feel like I think a woman would feel. But I really think that is a fantasy, as a woman may not feel quite like I feel.

Among other things I feel sexy, but I also feel that it is so right for me to feel the way I do. It feels so natural, when I walk I sway my hips a bit, and that is just there. I do it and then realize that I am doing it. I don't think about it first and then do it.

Today I know that It is impossible for me to feel like or imitate a woman totally and I accept that. I just love being exactly who I am, and am grateful that I can experience this the way I do.

I wish I could help you understand this more, but I don't fully understand it myself, and hope this does not serve to confuse you any more than you might already be confused. It is just something I have had to accept the way it is.

Love Darlene.
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Aeryn
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Post by Aeryn »

Kay,

I understand your comments about how you hear CD's saying they admire women so much they want to emulate them and you (women) should be flattered.

This is my personal perspective:

I do have a great admiration for women and perhaps in some way I do wish to emulate them. I watch my SO get ready to go out and going through her 'rituals'- hair, makeup, choosing an outfit, and I think to myself, "I wish I could do that", "I wish that could be me and that I had those options." I also wish I could present myself as less "macho" than society expects. I often have to catch myself at work when I start to slip into a more female mode. Fortunately, I work primarily with women, so they either don't notice or don't care that I tend to have more 'female' traits.

As to the point that women should be flattered that CDs want to be like them, that I don't understand. I would never tell my wife she should be flattered I want to dress like her. I think for the most part, those things CDs identify as feminine are the things women (some, most) would like to do without. Although my SO loves her makeup, she hates heels. Although she has long hair, she wears it up most of the time. But then again, at least she has those choices. As a man, I do not, but that's a whole other topic.

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Post by Gelinda »

Kay:

I have never thought of it that way but it does make me think. I do want to emulate a lady some day but I am so physically manly that I will never be able to do it. So to answer the question I think that it is so that I could pull it off. I fight inside of myself about the CD within. I am different than most of the CD's here I think as I do not want to be a CD and have decided that if I could kill that part of me I would.

But now that my thyroid medicine is working I am know that I can't destroy the CD within so I am attempting to learn to live with it. I must envy a ladies ability to be a lady. I can't ask my lady and wife how as she does not do the war paint thing. My wife is not a physical beauty and she knows it but she is the most beautiful person on this world. I love her much much more than I can ever but in words.

I have a picture in my mind of the perfect lady in my mind. I truly know that I can't be that picture but I can work towards it. i just can't figure out who is going to train me how to do it. I learn by example the best.

Gelinda. I will stop the rambling now. Sorry Kay.
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Post by DonnaT »

Personally, I have no desire to be a woman.

I don't think I have any desire to "emulate" a woman. There are many types of women. Some feminine, some butch, and those in between. So which one would I wish to emulate if I wanted to do so?

No, I want to be myself. Part of me is female and part is male. That's why I say I am transgendered. The female part of me wishes to wear pretty clothes, wishes to look more feminine than butch, loves painted nails. Not all women want these things.

I have an artist heart also. Beauty draws my eye. I do not covet what I see, I only wish I could look as good.

Do I admire women? Sure, but not all women.

Do not women admire other women?

Should women feel flattered by CDs saying they wish to emulate a woman, to be a woman? Not in my opinion. That is, not just because they are women.

If someone wanted to be like me, I would hope it is because of how I live my life, not how I look. I think I would feel more like an 'object' than a 'person' if someone wanted to emulate me based on looks.
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Post by Gelinda »

Ok Donna you are my CJ jr but I do not understand not wanting to be a woman but a man statement. Ok I am sorry I am a little under the brown bottle squad by now. Gee
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Post by DonnaT »

If I were TS, then I would want to be a woman. I like my male bits, and have never had a desire to be a woman :) I am a CD, not TS.
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Sally
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Admiration and flattery

Post by Sally »

Hello Kay,

I'm probably not the best qualified person to give any answers to you of any substance because of my gender issues which run deeper than the clothing or just imitating a superficial image of a woman, but some reading material which you may find of interest can be found at http://www.geocities.com/whytv/whatibelieve/causes.html

The writer (whom I admire for his honesty and forthright admissions and interesting suggestions) in his article under the heading of ' The Causes of Transvestism' says this and I quote,

" Some transvestites talk about a kind of sympathetic magic as part of the auto-erotic experience of cross-dressing. Cross-dressing, they argue, involves turning themselves into the object of their desire, thus gaining mastery of it. It is certainly true that, when cross-dressed, it is something like having an eager and willing woman to touch and admire, who will pose for you and who will let you watch her, touch her and fondle her as much as you like. " Unquote.

You may also find some of the writers comments interesting regarding feeling attractive as against looking attractive. I hope it helps you and gives you some food for thought.

In my travels I've come into contact with a lot of people from the TG community (the largest number in one single gathering being in excess of 500) and I've heard it said so many times by people who have stated that the reason they dress in the style they do is to 'create the object of their desire'. Even if the way they dress doesn't do themselves justice, they still try to create that look which they most desire to see a woman present as, which they say includes a sexual content and I would see this as a natural normal part of women being attractive to men.

To put it another way I might suggest that when a m/f Crossdresser dresses in a particular style to create 'the object of his desire', then he's paying that woman a big compliment as to the way she dresses and presents herself. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that women should be flattered by this, although I suppose on an individual basis women may well feel good within themselves that a compliment is indeed being paid to them.

I hope this is of some assistance to you.

Kind Regards.

Sally.
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Post by Virginia »

Well while I agree with some of what Sally says, I guess I have to take some of Donna's omments as well. For me and Virginia we are together in this, but I do not have any desire to become a woman (SRS). Virginia on the other hand doesn'twish to emulate other women, Virginia is who she is. Granted she seems to have a more stylish manner of dress. This grl will not wear jeans and a sweatshirt and tennis shoes. If a GG is comfortable that way or in some male attire, it is there choice, but Virginia is not. She evidently holds women to a higher esteem and if some of them (most/a lot) do not want to express their femininity in their physical appearance - so be it! Virginia will dress appropriately for whatever the occassion calls for but she will dress to it or above it, never below it. I guess what I am saying is that Virginia does not wish to emulate the way that most women seem to present themselves today!! One GG called me to task about this here once by saying "she probably dresses that way because - take a look as the slob she is with (SO/husband,)!" Can't buy it! No SO should have that type of influence over their SO. If you both want to be slobs - great! have at it! express your self. Virginia does not go there!!! So a bit of Sally and a bit of Donna and volia! = Virginia
Love ya!
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Heh. Kay submits another "stumper." That's cool. 8)

Kay,

I'm glad you asked this because it's a topic I've been struggling with, myself. I'll put down a few thoughts, some of which my raise some hackles even though I mean no offense.

I've heard it said (by the mysterious "they") that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." I'm not sure I buy into that. Not in our case, anyway. It seems to me that we, as crossdressers, cannot be intending to flatter women by imitating them because the impulse to crossdress is something we have no choice in submitting to (it's in our deepest psychological makeup)--regardless of whether or not the women in our lives feel flattered by our imitation.

A small digression on semantics, here: although we CD's often think we're imitating women, could it be that the women in our lives often look upon what we do as a form of emulation rather than imitation? While my dictionary defines "imitation" as "mimicking" and "looking like," it defines "emulation" as "trying to be the equal of" or "successfully competing with." Most women I know will never believe (and will never be flattered by) the fact that, just by wearing women's clothes and makeup and jewelry, a man can think that he's succeeded in "being the equal" of a woman. In fact, when you think about it, this kind of admittedly well-meaning view is (or can be) a totally reductionist take on what it means to be a woman. Personally, I would find it insulting (or, at the very least, disquieting); if I were a woman, I'm not sure that I'd find myself flattered by a man who implicitly believes that what I wear and how I present myself to the world is the essence of who I am. I'm more than just my image or the clothes I wear. And so are women. (And this is why many SO's are puzzled and scratch their heads over our love of clothes; to them, that's all it is, just clothes.)

Having said this, I know that CD's (myself included, of course) mean no harm when they tell their SO's that they should be flattered by their man's tribute (witting or unwitting) to the appearance of womanhood. Still, we CD's should never confuse a tribute to appearance with a tribute to being itself. Alas! we almost always do so. Again, personally, I will never delude myself into thinking that my wearing a skirt and heels will give me any kind of special insight into what it feels like to be a woman. At best, I can know what a woman's feet feel like at the end of a long day in heels, and only the feet of those women who actually wear heels, at that.

Another thing (maybe slightly more controversial, but here goes, anyway). Generally, men are very visually minded. More so than women. (And I'm not alking here about the "vanity, thy name is 'woman'" kind of visual-mindedness, but rather of the way in which men and women relate to the world around them.) When it comes to the relations between the sexes, men tend to think of women in those visual terms. Of course, there's such a thing as "the female gaze" as well, but it seems the female gaze can accommodate those things that are "unseen" (e.g., character and personality traits) more than the male gaze does when a man looks at a woman. What I'm trying to say is that, as both Gee and Sally have hinted at, we men have an "idealized" image of not only women but of womanhood itself, much more so than women have of men (and part of me wants to say that it's just not that hard to not idealize men). Women tend to see the man in front of them whereas men tend to see the woman that's in their mind.

For me, the question then becomes: When we say we're imitating women, are we imitating "the women in front of us" or "the women in our mind"? I rather think we're imitating the idealized image because, in reality, women aren't always the glamourous, sexy, thrilling, beautiful, sultry, curvaceous creatures we make them out to be (if the looks most CD's are trying to achieve are any indication). No, women, like men, are just regular human beings with their pimples and creases and hopes and bad moods; they come in all shapes and sizes and flavours (most of which are never represented in the media or in the cultural imagination). Again, if I were a woman--if I were Kay--I, too, would feel a bit uneasy if I should notice that men who crossdress, and who tell me I should be flattered and feel complimented by their imitation of me, are, in reality, only imitating an image of women that doesn't exist in reality. I'd come to feel invisible, in a way. And that's certainly not flattering.

On a personal note, I look at my own photos on the gallery and I think, lo and behold! I haven't escaped this, myself. But, really, when it comes down to it, I fully understand that my presentation as a woman is a role I play in the theater of my mind. I play it because doing so obviously meets some deep-rooted psychological need of mine. I imagine it's like this for most of us. Still, I know that the image I project is a fantasy (and, this, by the way, is why I felt it was not only appropriate but necessary to also put up "boy mode" pix on my gallery). I used to think there was a contradiction (and, to me, it was a painful one) between my wanting to emulate the appearance and beauty of women and my interacting and relating to women on a person-to-person and human-to-human basis--regardless of their appearance. But I don't think of it as a contradiction any longer. In a way, my appearance as a woman has more to do with (and says more about) my relationship with myself than it does with, and about, my relationship to women. One doesn't exclude the other. Ultimately, there are many women in my life I'd wish to both imitate and emulate because of their smarts and sensitivity, certainly not just because of their looks.

Anyway, Kay, I hope his helps some. Keep in mind, all of you, that this is just how yours truly tends to look at things. It doesn't make me right and it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't a myriad ways to "look" at this (pun intended).

Love,
CJ
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Kay(SO)
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Post by Kay(SO) »

Hey,

Thanks for all of the food for thought and good replies. I think part of what I was asking go overlooked but that's okay because it brought forth some other interesting tidbits to think about.

I stopped asking "why" a long time ago and have come to understand there is no simple, single, uncomplicated, explainable answer to that question.

My dilemma has more to do with feeling confused by the statement, "imitation is the greatest form of flattery," kind of thing.

My husband too feels comfortable, relaxed and whole when he has the chance to dress. He admires my look, style, hair, body, etc... however it becomes a bit conflicting for me when I don't know if he's admiring these things feeling attracted to me or wanting to look or "be" like me? In a sense, I feel flattered that he thinks I have great style, beautiful hair, and that he likes my boobs. I feel beautiful and sexy on one level. But then when I think about the fact that he would also like to have these same attributes it somehow puts a damper on my positive feelings about myself and it's no longer about me anymore at all. It's not that I'm beautiful and attractive to him anymore. It's that he would completely get off on being or looking like me. This is a very confusing place for a GG to be.

And the really confusing part comes into play when I don't know if I feel flattered by this or depressed? Sorry if that offends anyone but I'm just trying to be honest and sort it all out for myself.

I got some really good posts here and as you can see, thought provoking, which usually helps me figure things out in this complicated brain of mine. My heart is involved here too which makes it even more complicated. I love my husband and I have to continue to sort through my feelings or it affects our relationship. Thanks for the continued help! I hope I will hear from other SO's here too!

Kay(SO)
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Post by Kay(SO) »

CJ,

Wow, I was writing the above post as you were sending in your post! You know what they say about great minds... hee hee.

Anyway, I can only say that I love you and that what you wrote was profound, made me think even MORE and had everything to do with what I'm going through, sorting out, feeling, etc... and for that I thank you.

Donna, Sally, Virginia, Gelinda, Aeryn, and Darlene. You are all wonderful and I'm grateful for the words of wisdom. Thanks so much! Hugs to all of you,

Kay(SO)
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Post by Loretta Ann »

Hi again Kay,

This thread has raised a question in my mind that I have not given any previous thought to.

I wonder if this has to do with the fact that many of us do not like the body we have been given? There have been numerous statements by CDers to the extent that we don't feel comfortable in our own bodies in societies version of the clothes we should wear.

In my case I think there is something to that. And likely has at least something to do with a distaste for the body I have been given, as there is no way that I can feel any way close to feeling as comfortable in men clothing as I do in woman's clothing. Thus the saying it feels so right.

I can not see how it could not include this, and perhaps there would be some wisdom (for some of us) in looking at this side of it a little closer? Could it perhaps also be an expression of this distaste?

Love Darlene.
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Virginia
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Post by Virginia »

CJ,CJ,CJ =D> =D> =D> =D>
Awesome - Girl!!!! " In a way, my appearance as a woman has more to do with (and says more about) my realtionship with myself than it does with, and about, my relationship to women." That is me!!! I love women, they are smart, strong and needless to say beautiful, unique creatures, but when it comes to Virginia it about me and her, no one else. Her desires for appearance and presentation are hers and hers alone. She is her own woman and does not seek to emulate or imitate another woman.
The femininity is just inborne and she lets it out!
It is sooooooo wonderful!!!
You girls are the best!!!!!
Love,
Virgina
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Post by Jassmine(SO) »

Howdy Y'all ..o)..

Ah Virginia....I do have to agree that my appearance has more to do with my relationship with myself :) I dress to please only me. I have never even considered dressing to compete with other women. Why??? To me that is pointless. Ahzz, feels the same way. He dresses for himself and noone else. He has never stated that he wishes to imitate or emulate women. He only wishes to wear what he enjoys wearing. He also expreses his feminine nature just fine without the clothes, as I am able to express my masculinity. Although, at times it is nice to have the outward appearance of one's opposite nature :) So, I guess I also have to say that I don't understand why women would feel flattered by CDing.

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Blessings Eternal, Jassmine

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