"Hard Wired"... what if?

[Estefania]

Violet,

You totally missed the point of my message. First off, it was a totally hypotetical scenario. Second, this comes as I indicated after I have seen some sort of trend in many forums and chat rooms to attach "plain crossdressing" to a biological and/or genetical cause. Also like I said, this is not related to those who identify themselves as TS, or for whom CDing is only a marginal way to express part of who they are, since they indeed state that they "suffer" from GID.

Where I believe lots of folks are totally missiing the point, is when they state that there is no choice for anybody. People is not doomed to CD because they don't have a choice. There is a big difference between CDing because you like to do it, and CDing because you have to do it. Nobody has to CD to survive. And of course, we have people who decided to start CDing once they were able to be totally aware of what they were doing... Or those who after some time, decide that they are better off without CDing. ("Ah, but those are not REAL Crossdressers!" - some would say... Well, what is a real CD? How many pairs of shoes does a real CD has to have? What determines a real CD?)

True, it is "harmless", to a point. If CDing is messing up the individual's life, then he/she has to do something about it.

Finally, it wasn't about the government or an agency or anybody knowing who was a "real CD" or not. It was a serious question to those who sustain that they "were born crossdresssers" because it was "hardwired" in their brain. If that is the main justification they have to do it, and then for some cause it was possible to prove that they are NOT, how would that change them? Would they stop CDing at once? Or would they somehow believe that all those years they had the CHOICE to CD in their own minds/hands, and then assume their own CDing under a different perspective.

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Dear Beauty,

I'm so glad that you didn't take wrong the distinction I made in my posting. But it does make a difference on how people could relate to what I was trying to say.

Even so, you gave some great answers to my two scenarios!!

Thank you very much for your kind words! I really look forward to being able to meet you one of these years.

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Cathy,

I pretty much agree with all what you said. There was a previous posting about anybody being a "potential" CD. Yes, I do think that everybody is a potential CD, same as everybody is a potential Nobel Prize winner, or a potential murderer.

As human beings, we have the potential to do anything we may be wanting to do. Regardless of our "genetic predisposition". All that talk about "genetic predisposition" reminds me of Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World". What if for any reason I could not prove that I have a "genetic predisposition" to CD? Should I then be banned from it? Or if I dress, then I would be indeed a freak, because I don't have a real reason to do it, other than the fact that I enjoy it?

Anyway, you made some great points in your message. Thanks!

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Aeryn,

I'm glad that you can recognize that you can choose to or not to engage in the behavoir, because, sadly, it can get to a point in which CDing may get to control your life.

Sure, we may never know exactly how our CDing originates, or why is it there after many years. But it is up to us what we do about it. How we may be able to integrate it in our lives, and how we prioritize it with all the other important things in life.

I guess that the biggest problem I have with the "hardwired" concept is that it would mean that our brain is different than the brain of those who have never thought about CDing. I don't think so. (And before anything, yes, I know that I may be wrong) In a way, it would be like if everybody who is bilingual had a different brain from those who are not. CDing can be a part of us, without any structural differences in our brain. (IMHO)

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Andrea,

Very true... Interesting, but not important. That's also the point. People who defend their CDing using the "hardwired" concept as the main reason they have to CD... well, they sure think that it is more important than interesting.

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Virginia,

Even though I would be a liar if I told you I know what you have been going through, I have read some of your messages telling people about your situation. I just wanted to tell you that I hope that at the end, things will work out for you. *hug*

Love,
Gaby

[Violet]

Where I believe lots of folks are totally missiing the point, is when they state that there is no choice for anybody ... There is a big difference between CDing because you like to do it, and CDing because you have to do it. ... Or those who after some time, decide that they are better off without CDing ... As human beings, we have the potential to do anything we may be wanting to do ... if I dress, then I would be indeed a freak, because I don't have a real reason to do it, other than the fact that I enjoy it?

Gaby - I think you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion as to what 'free choice' means. Obviously, if someone decided to put on ladies' clothes 'for kicks' and then later decided that no, it's not for them, they get nothing out of it - well, no, it wasn't based on any sort of innate 'need' (or even 'want') - it was something they just randomly decided to do one day.

Honestly, how often does that happen? Every CD I have evr talked to about the issue, here or elsewhere, admits they first began because they got some degree of pleasure out of the act. Pleasure is a chemical response used by our bodies to steer us toward doing things that physically (or psychologically) benefit us. Therefore, our 'desire' to cross-dress is based on a physical, chemical response. I don't consider myself 'transgendered' and never have for more than the most fleeting of moments, but I still feel great pleasure and relief at the prospect of turning myself to a more feminine appearance and wearing ladies' clothing. Do I have a 'free choice' in that matter? No, any more than I have a 'free choice' as to whether I like to eat.

You totally missed the point of my message. First off, it was a totally hypotetical scenario.

And I responded to it with what I thought were reasonable answers. I get your point. I just feel that you're thinking about this issue in the wrong terms.

"Ah, but those are not REAL Crossdressers!" - some would say ... If that is the main justification they have to do it, and then for some cause it was possible to prove that they are NOT, how would that change them? Would they stop CDing at once? ... What if for any reason I could not prove that I have a "genetic predisposition" to CD? Should I then be banned from it?

Pardon me if I'm misinterpereting this, but you seem quite concerned that 'the TG community' is somehow going to 'ostracize' you for your view that your CDing is a 'free choice' rather than a biologically-based urge. Well, maybe that's the case; more retarded things have happened. Just know that I personally don't really care; you're a sister and that's good enough for me. But I submit thatthe only ones likely to try to 'ban' you from CDing is the government.

it would mean that our brain is different than the brain of those who have never thought about CDing. I don't think so ... In a way, it would be like if everybody who is bilingual had a different brain from those who are not. CDing can be a part of us, without any structural differences in our brain.

Everything that makes people different from each other is due to differences in brain structure. (IMHO) I suppose you believe it's due to differences in the 'soul' or 'spirit'. Again, fundamental difference of opinion (not that I don't believe in a soul, just that I believe there is only one in the entirety of reality.)

Finally, it wasn't about the government or an agency or anybody knowing who was a "real CD" or not.

Nor here. You've missed my point completely. If you deny the political/socialogical dimention to these questions, you're at the very least ignoring history. There's a big difference, socially and politically, between seeing Autism as a condition to be treated and seeing it as being kidnapping by elves. The biggest gun the anti-LGBT brigade has is the idea that we're 'choosing' to do it and we can 'stop any time we want'. From that point, it becomes more reasonable to attach all of these negative connotations to it with the aim of painting it as morally wrong. Every time you try to argue that CDing is not based on an innate need, you put more ammunition in their hands. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to argue for your point of view, just that you should be aware of all the worms in the can.

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

The way I understand where Gaby is coming from (correct me if I am wrong Gaby) as I am really speaking for myself here is:

That there is a difference if you are Cross-dressing because you have no choice in the matter. as opposed to setting that issue aside and Cross-dressing because you want to.

Cross-dressing because one has no choice means one is not self controlled. While cross-dressing because one chooses to do so, sets one free to explore and enjoy the experience.

And there is a big difference between the two that I did not realize until I was able to be free to choose.

Love Darlene.

[Estefania]

Hello Darlene.

No, you are not wrong, at all.

You have pretty much summed it all. I do believe that once you are able to assume your own choice on the matter is the ultimate way to be able to accept all the joy and also all the responsability it will bring your way. It gives you freedom.

Violet,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. We have some very different opinions on issues. However, I do respect your opinion.

The one thing that I will comment is that you did misinterpeter me on that about how I "seem quite concerned that 'the TG community' is somehow going to 'ostracize' you for your view that your CDing is a 'free choice' rather than a biologically-based urge." I hope this won't sound wrong, but I really don't care about the so called "TG community". All I see are individuals, not a community perse. And mostly maybe because that's the way I want it. In the real world, I don't want acceptance because I may be part of a group. I want acceptance because of myself. Sure, I care about issues that may affect a lot of people with the same interests that I have, so it is not like I want to get myself into a cave and not care about the rest of the world.

[Virginia]

Ok, Ok I too have to agree to disagree with you Gaby. Some of the scientific evidence that is coming out says that our (Crossdressers) brains are "wired" different - just as gays and lesbians and TS. You can believe that everyone's brain is the same and that is your choice. As for me I have to side with my Sis, Darlene in that I honestly believe I have a choice. I think I could stop crossdressing! It would take a lot of intestinal fortitude but I could do it!!!! I WILL NOT DO IT - HOWEVER!! I enjoy it, I enjoy Virginia and I can only say 'she" has improved my life! Actual studies (sorry can not site them but someone here sited test results) we as crossdresser are of a higher intelligence than the "average" population, too.
Anyway thanks of rmaking us think.
Love,
Virginia

[Estefania]

(Insert a loud *Huh?* sound here)

Virginia,

No, no, no... I didn't say (or at least didn't mean to say) that everyone's brain is the same. Au contraire!! Each brain is as unique as each individual. And along those lines, yes, I do not believe that there is a "smoking gun" when they get to study the brain structures to determine wheter an individual will be a CD or not.

I may phrase it different than you do, but in my case, I also feel that being able to accept my cding as a part of my life, and being able to integrate it into who I am, with or without having to dress, has improved my life. Mostly because my self acceptance took away the big load of shame and guilt. Other than that, I was already lucky enough as to realize that most of the character traits that society may see as feminine can be a part of my personality as a guy, and that wouldn't make me less of a man.

Love,
Gaby

[Jamie Ann]

(Insert a loud *Huh?* sound here) Virginia, No, no, no... I didn't say (or at least didn't mean to say) that everyone's brain is the same. Au contraire!! Each brain is as unique as each individual. And along those lines, yes, I do not believe that there is a "smoking gun" when they get to study the brain structures to determine wheter an individual will be a CD or not.

     This seems like a case of people talking past each other. Virginia says that we are born with certain tendencies, and that some of us express our associated feelings through crossdressing.

     Gaby says that being able to accept CDing as a part of her life took away a big load of shame and guilt, and that most of the traits that society sees as feminine can be a part of a man’s personality without making him less of a man.

     Where is the disagreement? No one has claimed that our genes force us to overtly behave in any way. On the other hand, suppressing one’s feelings and refusing to act upon them is not the “solution” many of us want. Furthermore, those who are the most strongly transgendered want to be able to express their “hard-wired” nature (in ways not harmful to themselves or anyone else) without being targets of uncivilized conduct by others. If there is a real TG issue today, it is the issue of tolerance and how we can create more of it.

[Virginia]

Gaby, I love the way you stated your position and I think I agree with you! Granted we can be the result of our socio-economic background but what goes on in our cranial cavity also leads us on our various journies.
Jamie Ann is probably right, we are both saying somewhat the same thing only in our own way. Anyway, I will take my "plight," accept it and I am having a ball!!!!!
Love ya,
Virginia

[Beauty]

Hi there,

Nice job to everyone for not letting this get out of hand and listening to each other.

Just as a reminder. Re-read your posts before you submit them to be read. Please remember to remove any harsh criticisms based on assumptions you make about reading something without a person clarifying their position first. Ask questions to find out if what they are saying is true instead of being so aggressive about assumptions you think the person may have meant when they worded something a certain way. By doing this you'll assure your posts stay in a thread and more importantly the forum stays friendly.

I applaud you all for taking this thread back to a very nice thread. I applaud Gaby for maintaining her cool when her thoughts were being challenged about things she never meant to imply. The Twins for being open listeners with respectful questions and carefully worded assumptions and Jamie Ann for saying, "Hey? Did you all know you're not really that far apart from saying the same thing?"


Beauty

[Virginia]

Thanks Beauty for being there!
Now I will tell you how I really feel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess I need to do just what you said, and go back and reread not only my sister's posts but those that I struggle to express in my own feeble way.
My sisters here are such ladies!!! I love you all!!!
Virginia

[Cathy L. Anderson]

A post I just made to the left-handedness thread suggests a possible compromise view to this discussion.

• 1 - Perhaps CDs do have a genuine biological difference (e.g., in brain structure): this element is determined.
  
  2 - But perhaps there are several possible ways to deal with it: this element involves free choice.

The argument "free choice" vs. "biological determinism" incorrectly views these things as either-or.

Many people think "CDing is biologically determined, therefore I should not try to stop or control the urge." The premise may be true, but it does not necessarily justify the conclusion.

I believe it is very important to consider alternatives to crossdressing. One is the goal of psychological androgyny: to remain a male in gender, but to combine a male's physical strength, vitality and heroism with the feminine attributes of nurturing, compassion, eros, and beauty.

Cathy

[Loretta Ann]

Good points Cathy,

The argument "free choice" vs. "biological determinism" incorrectly views these things as either-or.

From my perspective "biological determinism" that lacks free choice is the issue some of us are attempting to address here. As opposed to an either-or mind set.

IMO until one is able to embrace the fact that it is possible to be free to make a choice, which entails accepting all the reasons why we are this way, one would be unable to enjoy who they were created to be.

It places a door if you will in your path that needs a key in order to get through, and getting to the place where one is free to choose is that key.

Love Darlene.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Something I'm wondering: is there an "excluded middle," here? We can talk of "hard-wired" brains and freedom of choice, but nobody's brought up the fact that early childhood development has as much of a deterministic effect on our subsequent behaviours as do, say, genetics and/or neurophysiology. In other words, is it possible that we're, in a way, "forced" to crossdress, but not for congenital reasons?

Just a thought.

Love,
CJ

[Virginia]

CJ, sometimes you go over my head , which really isn't difficult but "forced?." I note where several of the ladies here mention being dressed by their (usually) older sisters or occassionally by their mother's but if memory serves, they all seemed to enjoy the experience. Forced at a young age then as they get older to have the desire erupt again? It would lead me to believe that they had the gift to begin with but that it was not really ready to show "herself." Do you remember reading any of the posts were someone said they were forced into dressing? I can't recall any, but that does not mean that they were not there.
Love ya,
Virginia

[CJ]

Hi all,

Heh. Virginia, I didn't mean "forced" in the "Fictionmania" sense, no; I meant forced as in we feel compelled to crossdress and are often powerless to prevent ourselves from doing so.

Yes, we can stop CD'ing (or believe we can) but doing so inflicts damage on our mental health. We become ornery, fidgety, depressed, anxious, disconnected, apathetic, and cranky when our natural inclinations are thwarted. Any one of us who's ever attempted a purge can vouch for this.

I guess what I was trying to say is that, like Gaby, I'm an "agnostic" when it comes to the etiology (the root cause) of GID. It matters more what we do and how we cope with who we are than why we are that way. I guess it's the old opposition between, say, psychoanalysis (digging for reasons and meaning) and cognitive-behavioural therapies (looking for coping tools and a restructuring of our way of looking at things, without necessarily sifting through our past history).

As far as studies go, there are plenty of significant studies around that can validate any and all sides of this issue. In the end, like much else that is deep within us, it becomes accessible mostly through intuition. Even should science prove us wrong (or right), I'm pretty sure we'll all go on clinging to our own personal views about this. It's only human to do so.

Love,
CJ